TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Thermodolia]

More evidence that transitioning isn’t going to solve anything.

I wouldn't have pegged you as being against it.

People surprise you

[True Refuge]

Wanted to share this piece of an article, and get some points of view from this thread regulars:

https://www.theblaze.com/news/former-tr ... sex-change
(^conservative biased source)

Source aside, how would you classify a case like the above? Assuming just hypothetically it was all true, if you absolutely can't come to trust the source.
Would the above be a rare occurrence? Something common? The usual occurrence?

What about the need to check for underlying issues and traumas at the root of gender dysphoria, to address and resolve them if they are found?
And only if the gender dysphoria persists after the found issues are solved or they're absent, continue on with a physical approach to it?
Is the above reasoning, expressed in the article, something accepted? Questioned? Debated? Ignored?

More evidence that transitioning isn’t going to solve anything.

Unscientific take. Absolute statements basically do not exist in medical research. If the authors of the study don’t conclude it, you (in most cases, some authors are bad at making conclusions) shouldn’t take it further than they do. What matters is a trend in data, which an anecdote (one that is very sad and regrettable) does not constitute.

Even then, this is a unique case. There is nothing in the article that suggests that this child abuse of the extent this person suffered is widespread in trans individuals.

What the story and the attached paper actually suggest is that gender dysphoria is more complex than we thought and treatment should be adjusted to fit uncovered complications as more research comes out. It’s not the killer of transitioning as a medical procedure. Who could’ve guessed that psychiatry and the effects of child abuse are complicated.

EDIT: Also see Cekoviu’s post above. The context of the paper heavily restricts its applicability to the average trans individual.

And most of all, correlation does not equal causation.

[The New California Republic]

I wouldn't have pegged you as being against it.

Really? I think he's made it very clear that he's not an ally to trans people in the slightest.

I honestly didn't know.

also you said pegged and you're lgbt, ecks dee

[Hediacrana]

More evidence that transitioning isn’t going to solve anything.

Nice demonstration of unreflective confirmation bias there.

[True Refuge]

Nice demonstration of unreflective confirmation bias there.

Honestly the greatest travesty of mass commercial media has been the damage they’ve done to the public’s understanding of science. That understanding is so garbage now that it seems like the average person has no clue how evidence-based medicine works.

Every time someone looks at a single scientific paper and goes “haha X is 110% true get owned by science” I die a little inside.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Wanted to share this piece of an article, and get some points of view from this thread regulars:

https://www.theblaze.com/news/former-tr ... sex-change
(^conservative biased source)

Source aside, how would you classify a case like the above? Assuming just hypothetically it was all true, if you absolutely can't come to trust the source.
Would the above be a rare occurrence? Something common? The usual occurrence?

What about the need to check for underlying issues and traumas at the root of gender dysphoria, to address and resolve them if they are found?
And only if the gender dysphoria persists after the found issues are solved or they're absent, continue on with a physical approach to it?
Is the above reasoning, expressed in the article, something accepted? Questioned? Debated? Ignored?

More evidence that transitioning isn’t going to solve anything.

Transitioning can be the solution to a fair number of transgender people, Thermy. But like most decisions in life, for some, it may not be indeed the solution.

[New haven america]

The kid specifically said they're a girl, according to the only account of the situation available. Why the fuck can't people read??

Ya and I’m not buying the idea that a four year old has any idea what they are. This is the same woman who claimed that her two year old asked where the girl clothes are. I don’t buy it.

Ask the kid at 10 when they have a better understanding of what a girl is and not at four where they have no fucking clue what a girl or a boy are.

I knew I was a guy at 4, as did almost every other male I knew.

Did you not?

[Fahran]

It isn't simply having accepting parents and doctors that's a factor. Its the social environment as a whole. I.E., other family members, teachers, classmates, school administrators, etc. Even the general social attitude regarding transgender people as a whole is at play here.

Controlling for subtreshhold patients seems to reduce the frequency of desistance significantly, as I stated. That by itself suggests that the phenomena isn't necessarily linked to social pressures exclusively but rather to the fact that the gender dysphoria experienced by many patients isn't so severe and enduring as to necessitate or even warrant transition.

[True Refuge]

Ya and I’m not buying the idea that a four year old has any idea what they are. This is the same woman who claimed that her two year old asked where the girl clothes are. I don’t buy it.

Ask the kid at 10 when they have a better understanding of what a girl is and not at four where they have no fucking clue what a girl or a boy are.

I knew I was a guy at 4, as did almost every other male I knew.

Did you not?

It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.

Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?

[New haven america]

I knew I was a guy at 4, as did almost every other male I knew.

Did you not?

It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.

Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?

Because they might do something icky or wrong like doing something the parents/caretakers disagree with.

[Neutraligon]

I knew I was a guy at 4, as did almost every other male I knew.

Did you not?

It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.

Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?

I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.

[Luminesa]

Nice demonstration of unreflective confirmation bias there.

Honestly the greatest travesty of mass commercial media has been the damage they’ve done to the public’s understanding of science. That understanding is so garbage now that it seems like the average person has no clue how evidence-based medicine works.

Every time someone looks at a single scientific paper and goes “haha X is 110% true get owned by science” I die a little inside.

You’ve honestly got a really good point there. And solving medical issues such as this becomes slower when the media pits the public against each other.

[Fahran]

It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.

Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?

I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.

With regard to clothing, I would advise looking into the history of fashion between and across societies to acquire an understanding of how precisely particular items of clothing evolved and became gendered. There's meaning, even in small things, if you have eyes to grasp it. That's not to say that people must wear this or that, but merely that such things do possess their significance, however slight it might be. Fashion is a language and a story.

[Auzkhia]

It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.

Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?

I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.

Children's clothing were neutral until a certain age, but then clothing companies literally invented gender to sell more clothes.

[The Rich Port]

It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.

Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?

I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.

Maybe they have a daughter somewhere.

See... See what I did there.

[Fahran]

I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.

Children's clothing were neutral until a certain age, but then clothing companies literally invented gender to sell more clothes.

Gender was not invented by companies.

[Grenartia]

...wait, how does that have anything to do with the rest of the post?

Grenartia said that anyone who was anti-abortion should have their words taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't have made the comment otherwise, since uhhhh they’ve been responding to me when my sig has ‘pro-life’ in red letters.

Making me look bad is easy when you take my words out of context.

You know...and this is just a thought...you’re not required to respond to every single line if you think it’s all “bull****”.

Trust me, there's plenty of posts I didn't respond to. Also, letting blatant bullshit about my people go unanswered in this thread only allows said bullshit to attain an air of legitimacy. I have not only a right to challenge it, but an ethical duty to.

Also, there is definitely a problem with over-diagnosing certain conditions, though this is more dependent on the demographics of the individuals. African-American children get over-diagnosed with intellectual disorders, for example. I’m glad you got the help you needed, but the problem does exist outside of you. This is why research into such conditions is ongoing.

As for the part I missed...I genuinely did not miss it out of any sort of aimed malice. I think I skimmed too fast and missed it. It happens.

I recommend altering your posting habits accordingly. If you're going to respond to a post, make damn sure you didn't "skim over it". Read it as fully as you can before you respond to it. That's how I avoid that mistake entirely.

Honestly, the topic of gender with tiny children comes up so casually and inconsistently, that it usually does not require any sort of serious intervention to talk about the topic. I imagine you can break down almost any subject for a small child, but they also have to be willing to listen. Part of teaching isn’t just explaining material well, it’s also understanding each individual child where they are. At the same time, it’s also gauging how much the children will be interested in the topic. If even 8th graders can be immature about penis jokes, you can probably imagine how much listening a typical 4-year-old would do. From my experience, tiny children are mostly concerned about playing and loving their families.

Sure, but children are also curious, and curiosity is a great opportunity for learning.

On a slight tangent, given that Therm has experience with the topic of child abuse, I don’t think it’s fair to say he is making his remarks out of thin air or out of some sort of concern-trolling. I think it’s only fair to try and understand his place

Did it not occur to you that I also happen to have some experience on the topic of child abuse? Did it not occur to you that I might already understand his position, backwards and forwards?

instead of trying to throw him out for not “being enough of an ally”.

That's not what's happening here.

Grenartia said that anyone who was anti-abortion should have their words taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't have made the comment otherwise, since uhhhh they’ve been responding to me when my sig has ‘pro-life’ in red letters.

Yeah you probably should have put that quote in, as what you were referring to was not clear at all.

The actual quote she's pulling from, complete with context.

Of course, and anyone whose against those clearly can’t be trusted. Remember kids, unless you support liberal causes, you’re unreliable.

More like, if you're anti-abortion, anti-marriage equality, and anti-transgender, then anything you say on those subjects should be taken with a massive grain of salt.

It shouldn't at all be controversial to say this, any more than it should be controversial to say you shouldn't trust Flat Earthers about geography (or a host of other subjects that prove the Earth is round). I completely stand by what I actually said.

There's two possibilities here. Either Lumi is blatantly lying by omission to gain sympathy points (which I really wouldn't want her to be guilty of), or she had another one of her "I skimmed too fast" moments. Neither is a good look for her, although one is far and away much better to be guilty of than the other. I'm more than willing to accept that she simply skimmed too fast, and will cite this as proof that she needs to actually make sure she reads people's posts before responding or reacting to them, especially since it can lead to others assuming the worst about her (which is the only reason I mentioned the other possibility).

[Grenartia]

I wouldn't have pegged you as being against it.

Really? I think he's made it very clear that he's not an ally to trans people in the slightest.

Which is actually quite disappointing to me, because I remember when he actually was a fairly good ally.

Nice demonstration of unreflective confirmation bias there.

Honestly the greatest travesty of mass commercial media has been the damage they’ve done to the public’s understanding of science. That understanding is so garbage now that it seems like the average person has no clue how evidence-based medicine works.

Every time someone looks at a single scientific paper and goes “haha X is 110% true get owned by science” I die a little inside.

Part of me wouldn't at all be surprised if the absolutely abysmal state of science education in this country, combined with the effect you mention, is intentional, designed to engender a populace that is mostly incapable of genuine scientific inquiry. Which makes it far easier to sell dumb and useless bullshit (looking at you, "healing crystals"), scaremonger about various technologies (such as nuclear energy and vaccines), and generally keep the truth from people.

It isn't simply having accepting parents and doctors that's a factor. Its the social environment as a whole. I.E., other family members, teachers, classmates, school administrators, etc. Even the general social attitude regarding transgender people as a whole is at play here.

Controlling for subtreshhold patients seems to reduce the frequency of desistance significantly, as I stated. That by itself suggests that the phenomena isn't necessarily linked to social pressures exclusively but rather to the fact that the gender dysphoria experienced by many patients isn't so severe and enduring as to necessitate or even warrant transition.

Define "subthreshold patients", please.

Children's clothing were neutral until a certain age, but then clothing companies literally invented gender to sell more clothes.

Gender was not invented by companies.

Gender was invented by bathroom companies to sell more bathrooms!

[True Refuge]

Part of me wouldn't at all be surprised if the absolutely abysmal state of science education in this country, combined with the effect you mention, is intentional, designed to engender a populace that is mostly incapable of genuine scientific inquiry. Which makes it far easier to sell dumb and useless bullshit (looking at you, "healing crystals"), scaremonger about various technologies (such as nuclear energy and vaccines), and generally keep the truth from people.

Oh, definitely. The Murdoch press is a huge pusher of pseudoscience and shitty science reporting in at least the UK and Australia, and Murdoch's always had an agenda, as have the people who push for cuts to public education.

Define "subthreshold patients", please.

While you're waiting, Fahran first mentioned 'subthreshold' in this post:

Puberty blockers are a good compromise for children since the effects aren't permanent.

Giving puberty blockers to children can have quite a few deleterious effects, including bone mineralization and infertility. Really, I would steer clear of describing any child under the age of fourteen as trans in absolute terms given the high frequency of desistance. The safer presumption is that they're cis and experimenting with their gender or simply cis and taking an interest in activities and behaviors often associated with the opposite gender - because that's usually the case. Most kids who identify as trans-gender seem to grow out of it by the time they reach late adolescence - somewhere between 54% and 63%. We could also just decline from labeling the gendered behavior and identities of children under fourteen in absolute terms. If a child attains the age of fourteen, identifies as the opposite gender (or anything other than their assigned gender), and is not subthreshold, then you can still give them puberty blockers and begin the process of transitioning without much difficulty in most cases.

Source.

I'm guessing that the definition of "subthreshold" can be found in the paper the source refers to when it discusses subthreshold gender dysphoria, but that paper is paywalled.

The abstract, however, does say this:

At the assessment in childhood, 60% of the girls met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for GID, and 40% were subthreshold for the diagnosis.

Presumably, "subthreshold" would mean exhibiting some symptoms of gender dysphoria but not in an intensity or number that fits the DSM's criteria for GID.

However, that's just my guess. I can't be sure without seeing the methodology of the paper.

[Grenartia]

Part of me wouldn't at all be surprised if the absolutely abysmal state of science education in this country, combined with the effect you mention, is intentional, designed to engender a populace that is mostly incapable of genuine scientific inquiry. Which makes it far easier to sell dumb and useless bullshit (looking at you, "healing crystals"), scaremonger about various technologies (such as nuclear energy and vaccines), and generally keep the truth from people.

Oh, definitely. The Murdoch press is a huge pusher of pseudoscience and shitty science reporting in at least the UK and Australia, and Murdoch's always had an agenda, as have the people who push for cuts to public education.

Define "subthreshold patients", please.

While you're waiting, Fahran first mentioned 'subthreshold' in this post:

Giving puberty blockers to children can have quite a few deleterious effects, including bone mineralization and infertility. Really, I would steer clear of describing any child under the age of fourteen as trans in absolute terms given the high frequency of desistance. The safer presumption is that they're cis and experimenting with their gender or simply cis and taking an interest in activities and behaviors often associated with the opposite gender - because that's usually the case. Most kids who identify as trans-gender seem to grow out of it by the time they reach late adolescence - somewhere between 54% and 63%. We could also just decline from labeling the gendered behavior and identities of children under fourteen in absolute terms. If a child attains the age of fourteen, identifies as the opposite gender (or anything other than their assigned gender), and is not subthreshold, then you can still give them puberty blockers and begin the process of transitioning without much difficulty in most cases.

Source.

I'm guessing that the definition of "subthreshold" can be found in the paper the source refers to when it discusses subthreshold gender dysphoria, but that paper is paywalled.

The abstract, however, does say this:

At the assessment in childhood, 60% of the girls met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for GID, and 40% were subthreshold for the diagnosis.

Presumably, "subthreshold" would mean exhibiting some symptoms of gender dysphoria but not in an intensity or number that fits the DSM's criteria for GID.

However, that's just my guess. I can't be sure without seeing the methodology of the paper.

That's my guess as well, but I'd definitely like to see some confirmation of it, as well as what the cutoff specifically is. Where do they draw the line between GD and "subthreshold"? Because I don't want to argue against a strawman.

[True Refuge]

Oh, definitely. The Murdoch press is a huge pusher of pseudoscience and shitty science reporting in at least the UK and Australia, and Murdoch's always had an agenda, as have the people who push for cuts to public education.



While you're waiting, Fahran first mentioned 'subthreshold' in this post:


I'm guessing that the definition of "subthreshold" can be found in the paper the source refers to when it discusses subthreshold gender dysphoria, but that paper is paywalled.

The abstract, however, does say this:



Presumably, "subthreshold" would mean exhibiting some symptoms of gender dysphoria but not in an intensity or number that fits the DSM's criteria for GID.

However, that's just my guess. I can't be sure without seeing the methodology of the paper.

That's my guess as well, but I'd definitely like to see some confirmation of it, as well as what the cutoff specifically is. Where do they draw the line between GD and "subthreshold"? Because I don't want to argue against a strawman.

This website lists the DSM criteria as follows:

Diagnosis
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.

In adolescents and adults gender dysphoria diagnosis involves a difference between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, and significant distress or problems functioning. It lasts at least six months and is shown by at least two of the following:

A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
A strong desire to be of the other gender
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender
In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.

A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender
For children, cross-gender behaviors may start between ages 2 and 4, the same age at which most typically developing children begin showing gendered behaviors and interests. Gender atypical behavior is common among young children and may be part of normal development. Children who meet the criteria for gender dysphoria may or may not continue to experience it into adolescence and adulthood. Some research shows that children who had more intense symptoms and distress, who were more persistent, insistent and consistent in their cross-gender statements and behaviors, and who used more declarative statements (“I am a boy (or girl)” rather than “I want to be a boy (or girl)”) were more likely to become transgender adults. 3, 4

I'm guessing (again, can't be sure of Fahran's perspective) that subthreshold applies to feelings and symptoms of gender dysphoria that do not collectively meet the criteria set out there.

[Grenartia]

That's my guess as well, but I'd definitely like to see some confirmation of it, as well as what the cutoff specifically is. Where do they draw the line between GD and "subthreshold"? Because I don't want to argue against a strawman.

This website lists the DSM criteria as follows:

Diagnosis
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.

In adolescents and adults gender dysphoria diagnosis involves a difference between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, and significant distress or problems functioning. It lasts at least six months and is shown by at least two of the following:

A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
A strong desire to be of the other gender
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender
In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.

A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender
For children, cross-gender behaviors may start between ages 2 and 4, the same age at which most typically developing children begin showing gendered behaviors and interests. Gender atypical behavior is common among young children and may be part of normal development. Children who meet the criteria for gender dysphoria may or may not continue to experience it into adolescence and adulthood. Some research shows that children who had more intense symptoms and distress, who were more persistent, insistent and consistent in their cross-gender statements and behaviors, and who used more declarative statements (“I am a boy (or girl)” rather than “I want to be a boy (or girl)”) were more likely to become transgender adults. 3, 4

I'm guessing (again, can't be sure of Fahran's perspective) that subthreshold applies to feelings and symptoms of gender dysphoria that do not collectively meet the criteria set out there.

Right, but that could mean any number of things.

[True Refuge]

This website lists the DSM criteria as follows:


I'm guessing (again, can't be sure of Fahran's perspective) that subthreshold applies to feelings and symptoms of gender dysphoria that do not collectively meet the criteria set out there.

Right, but that could mean any number of things.

I can’t really explain further since I don’t study psychiatry, sorry

[Grenartia]

Right, but that could mean any number of things.

I can’t really explain further since I don’t study psychiatry, sorry

Oh, no, I wasn't expecting you to explain it. I was just stating my motivations for needing the level of precision in the definition that I'm asking for.

[True Refuge]

I can’t really explain further since I don’t study psychiatry, sorry

Oh, no, I wasn't expecting you to explain it. I was just stating my motivations for needing the level of precision in the definition that I'm asking for.

It’s up to the psychiatrists at that point, I’d presume. They’d probably know more about what each criterion refers to, and how to judge where on the spectrum of “subthreshold” a person lies.

I would guess that they picked a threshold for diagnosis so that a large majority of people who meet the threshold or higher are statistically very likely to maintain a trans identity up to and after trans identity so that they can separate gender dysphoric individuals into two groups:

1. Statistically very likely to stay trans-identifying so fast-track treatment and transitioning if available and suitable.
2. May possibly desist so take extra time to ensure individual is clear about their gender identity with the appropriate blockers, therapy, affirmation, etc.