TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Vassenor]

They're not really feminist given their rigid enforcement of gender stereotypes.

From their perspective, trans people are the ones rigidly enforcing gender stereotypes. And while they are wrong, I don't really see how they're enforcing gender stereotypes themselves.

So deciding that any woman with short hair must be trans isn't an enforcement of stereotypes?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

From their perspective, trans people are the ones rigidly enforcing gender stereotypes. And while they are wrong, I don't really see how they're enforcing gender stereotypes themselves.

So deciding that any woman with short hair must be trans isn't an enforcement of stereotypes?

TERFs don't believe that. They believe a lot of stupid shit, but they don't believe that. Especially considering that many of them are women with short hair.

[Cekoviu]

They're not really feminist given their rigid enforcement of gender stereotypes.

From their perspective, trans people are the ones rigidly enforcing gender stereotypes. And while they are wrong, I don't really see how they're enforcing gender stereotypes themselves.

If you're a trans woman and not feminine enough, you're a fake tran and actually a gay man.
If you're a feminine trans woman, you're reinforcing gender roles and screwing over REAL wymyn.
They're trying to force butch and femme trans women into male gender roles and the male gender in general.
Course, nonbinary people and trans men don't exist in TERFworld.

[Vassenor]

So deciding that any woman with short hair must be trans isn't an enforcement of stereotypes?

TERFs don't believe that. They believe a lot of stupid shit, but they don't believe that. Especially considering that many of them are women with short hair.

So why do we see cases of women with short hair in gendered spaces being abused, thrown out and even arrested?

[Dumb Ideologies]

Honestly people usually only deny that transphobic feminists are "real" feminists because they've put feminism on a false pedestal.

That's not to say that feminism is generally a good or bad thing - I have my own opinion but that's off of our topic - but just that it's an ordinary ideology. Like all other ideologies, principles and priorities tend to favour certain groups over others despite paper and often honest individual commitments to equality. And - like those others - it contains its fair share of bigots and twits.

Feminists of varying degrees of trans-exclusionary views are veteran campaigners on feminist issues and they move among their milieu. Their interpretation of feminism is different in a limited number of ways to those who are more trans-friendly, but since that interpretation arises from within feminism and it comes from people who are "of" that milieu it is hardly objectively "unfeminist".

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

TERFs don't believe that. They believe a lot of stupid shit, but they don't believe that. Especially considering that many of them are women with short hair.

So why do we see cases of women with short hair in gendered spaces being abused, thrown out and even arrested?

I don't know. I'd like to know more about that.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

From their perspective, trans people are the ones rigidly enforcing gender stereotypes. And while they are wrong, I don't really see how they're enforcing gender stereotypes themselves.

If you're a trans woman and not feminine enough, you're a fake tran and actually a gay man.
If you're a feminine trans woman, you're reinforcing gender roles and screwing over REAL wymyn.
They're trying to force butch and femme trans women into male gender roles and the male gender in general.
Course, nonbinary people and trans men don't exist in TERFworld.

I agree, their standards are hypocritical and bullshit, but it's not really born out of a desire to enforce gender roles (nor out of a desire to defy them), it's out of a desire to invalidate trans people.

[Cekoviu]

If you're a trans woman and not feminine enough, you're a fake tran and actually a gay man.
If you're a feminine trans woman, you're reinforcing gender roles and screwing over REAL wymyn.
They're trying to force butch and femme trans women into male gender roles and the male gender in general.
Course, nonbinary people and trans men don't exist in TERFworld.

I agree, their standards are hypocritical and bullshit, but it's not really born out of a desire to enforce gender roles (nor out of a desire to defy them), it's out of a desire to invalidate trans people.

In part perhaps, but they generally essentially want to apply gender roles, just in the opposite direction. I've seen them also criticize feminine cis women, particularly lesbians, and masculine cis men. They want to make up for the idiocy of gender roles by simply reversing them instead of destroying them.

[Vassenor]

So why do we see cases of women with short hair in gendered spaces being abused, thrown out and even arrested?

I don't know. I'd like to know more about that.

Aside from the example I already provided...

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lesbian-ejected-nc-bathroom/

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I agree, their standards are hypocritical and bullshit, but it's not really born out of a desire to enforce gender roles (nor out of a desire to defy them), it's out of a desire to invalidate trans people.

In part perhaps, but they generally essentially want to apply gender roles, just in the opposite direction. I've seen them also criticize feminine cis women, particularly lesbians, and masculine cis men. They want to make up for the idiocy of gender roles by simply reversing them instead of destroying them.

That's very true. Unlike liberal feminists, who purport to believe that one should act however they like, whether it be stereotypical of their gender or non-conforming of their gender. While TERFs believe that one should never act in accordance with traditional gender roles. I don;t think that either of these can be declared "feminist" or "unfeminist" any more than the other though.

[Cekoviu]

In part perhaps, but they generally essentially want to apply gender roles, just in the opposite direction. I've seen them also criticize feminine cis women, particularly lesbians, and masculine cis men. They want to make up for the idiocy of gender roles by simply reversing them instead of destroying them.

That's very true. Unlike liberal feminists, who purport to believe that one should act however they like, whether it be stereotypical of their gender or non-conforming of their gender. While TERFs believe that one should never act in accordance with traditional gender roles. I don;t think that either of these can be declared "feminist" or "unfeminist" any more than the other though.

If one says that feminism is equivalent to women's liberation, which seems like a reasonable definition to me, TERFs would be in direct opposition to that by trying to force women into boxes (or at least a subclass of women).

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

That's very true. Unlike liberal feminists, who purport to believe that one should act however they like, whether it be stereotypical of their gender or non-conforming of their gender. While TERFs believe that one should never act in accordance with traditional gender roles. I don;t think that either of these can be declared "feminist" or "unfeminist" any more than the other though.

If one says that feminism is equivalent to women's liberation, which seems like a reasonable definition to me, TERFs would be in direct opposition to that by trying to force women into boxes (or at least a subclass of women).

Thing is, they view women who conform to conventional gender roles as inherently unliberated. And they view trans-women as men not in need of liberating. While, in my opinion they are wrong, I'm wrong in their opinion, so eh. Fascists think the white race is better than all the other races, but just because they're wrong about that doesn't mean they don't believe it.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I agree, their standards are hypocritical and bullshit, but it's not really born out of a desire to enforce gender roles (nor out of a desire to defy them), it's out of a desire to invalidate trans people.

In part perhaps, but they generally essentially want to apply gender roles, just in the opposite direction. I've seen them also criticize feminine cis women, particularly lesbians, and masculine cis men. They want to make up for the idiocy of gender roles by simply reversing them instead of destroying them.

It depends. You do see this from some of them, but still others reverse the negative judgement of stereotypes of femininity into arguing for the superiority of "feminine" culture and methods of communication, and then view transwomen as bringing in "male energy" and threat because of their biology/upbringing. They're often very invested in ideas of traditional femininity.

This is why I prefer the term "transphobic feminists" to "TERFs"; the latter feels like it lumps a lot of people with often quite different beliefs together into one box and segments them all away as if they're a united group who all believe the same things for the same reasons. There are essentialists, social constructionists, radical feminists, liberal feminists, Marxist feminists etc etc who are to some degree transphobic.

Though the people given the label do often deserve being snarled at, TERF is more of a snarl word than it is a legitimate descriptor of transphobic tendencies of varying intensities that often emanate from very different interpretations of feminism.

[Auzkhia]

You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.

I felt imposter syndrome over being nonbinary all the time, it was at first "what if I'm just a gnc cis guy trying to be cool" or "what if I am a binary woman in denial". I used to think I wasn't dysphoric enough, even though I have cried from feeling dysphoric before. Internalized transphobia hurts and makes one feel insecure.

Now, it doesn't help that my parents are calling my presentation "confused" and imply that I still don't know myself totally yet.

[The Rich Port]

In part perhaps, but they generally essentially want to apply gender roles, just in the opposite direction. I've seen them also criticize feminine cis women, particularly lesbians, and masculine cis men. They want to make up for the idiocy of gender roles by simply reversing them instead of destroying them.

It depends. You do see this from some of them, but still others reverse the negative judgement of stereotypes of femininity into arguing for the superiority of "feminine" culture and methods of communication, and then view transwomen as bringing in "male energy" and threat because of their biology/upbringing. They're often very invested in ideas of traditional femininity.

This is why I prefer the term "transphobic feminists" to "TERFs"; the latter feels like it lumps a lot of people with often quite different beliefs together into one box and segments them all away as if they're a united group who all believe the same things for the same reasons. There are essentialists, social constructionists, radical feminists, liberal feminists, Marxist feminists etc etc who are to some degree transphobic.

https://terfisaslur.com/

Also, TERF is a slur, after all.

[Ifreann]

In part perhaps, but they generally essentially want to apply gender roles, just in the opposite direction. I've seen them also criticize feminine cis women, particularly lesbians, and masculine cis men. They want to make up for the idiocy of gender roles by simply reversing them instead of destroying them.

It depends. You do see this from some of them, but still others reverse the negative judgement of stereotypes of femininity into arguing for the superiority of "feminine" culture and methods of communication, and then view transwomen as bringing in "male energy"...

*big dick energy

[Hanafuridake]

It depends. You do see this from some of them, but still others reverse the negative judgement of stereotypes of femininity into arguing for the superiority of "feminine" culture and methods of communication, and then view transwomen as bringing in "male energy"...

*big dick energy

Why is nobody talking about feminine penis energy.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

In part perhaps, but they generally essentially want to apply gender roles, just in the opposite direction. I've seen them also criticize feminine cis women, particularly lesbians, and masculine cis men. They want to make up for the idiocy of gender roles by simply reversing them instead of destroying them.

It depends. You do see this from some of them, but still others reverse the negative judgement of stereotypes of femininity into arguing for the superiority of "feminine" culture and methods of communication, and then view transwomen as bringing in "male energy" and threat because of their biology/upbringing. They're often very invested in ideas of traditional femininity.

This is why I prefer the term "transphobic feminists" to "TERFs"; the latter feels like it lumps a lot of people with often quite different beliefs together into one box and segments them all away as if they're a united group who all believe the same things for the same reasons. There are essentialists, social constructionists, radical feminists, liberal feminists, Marxist feminists etc etc who are to some degree transphobic.

Though the people given the label do often deserve being snarled at, TERF is more of a snarl word than it is a legitimate descriptor of transphobic tendencies of varying intensities that often emanate from very different interpretations of feminism.

That's true. But TERF gets the message across in far fewer syllables, even if it tends to be used as a snarl word. And from my experience, which is probably more limited than yours, most anti-trans feminists are on the more radical side.

[Dumb Ideologies]

*big dick energy

Why is nobody talking about feminine penis energy.

The oil companies kill off anyone who mentions it. It's too powerful.

[Hediacrana]

You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.

I'm sorry, Torra. Do you think it might help to journal about something that has given you gender euphoria in the past? I've found that helpful a couple of times when things were shitty.

Now, it doesn't help that my parents are calling my presentation "confused" and imply that I still don't know myself totally yet.

Yeah, I got that response from close ones too at some point. Issue is, they actually were the ones who were confused, because they had no idea what being nonbinary might look like. What helped in my case is to show them examples (videos and a graphic novel) of other nonbinary people, and say, see, that's where I am at too; I think that made it less abstract for them.

[Torrocca]

You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.

Wait, you're trans? I always thought you were a cis woman.

I guess I'm, like, the Solid Snake of stealthy (possibly) trans identity.

You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.

I'm sorry, Torra. Do you think it might help to journal about something that has given you gender euphoria in the past? I've found that helpful a couple of times when things were shitty.

Hmm, maybe. I really don't know. A return to the egg is feeling like the best option at the moment, but that's probably because of dumb brain energy.

[Dumb Ideologies]

It depends. You do see this from some of them, but still others reverse the negative judgement of stereotypes of femininity into arguing for the superiority of "feminine" culture and methods of communication, and then view transwomen as bringing in "male energy" and threat because of their biology/upbringing. They're often very invested in ideas of traditional femininity.

This is why I prefer the term "transphobic feminists" to "TERFs"; the latter feels like it lumps a lot of people with often quite different beliefs together into one box and segments them all away as if they're a united group who all believe the same things for the same reasons. There are essentialists, social constructionists, radical feminists, liberal feminists, Marxist feminists etc etc who are to some degree transphobic.

Though the people given the label do often deserve being snarled at, TERF is more of a snarl word than it is a legitimate descriptor of transphobic tendencies of varying intensities that often emanate from very different interpretations of feminism.

That's true. But TERF gets the message across in far fewer syllables, even if it tends to be used as a snarl word. And from my experience, which is probably more limited than yours, most anti-trans feminists are on the more radical side.

Not going to talk at length about this as it's stretching the topic bounds, but...

Feminism has gone through the same process many other ideologies have over the past few years, which I've talked about elsewhere. In short, extreme ideas gain in popularity under the influence of social media, both in offering a platform in the first place and because people tend to talk most about those with strong opinions, creating a momentum towards popularising the controversial. The bounds between liberal feminism and radical feminism are thinner than they used to be, and it's quite common to hear even fairly "mainstream" feminists make very general derogatory comments about "all" men of the kind that went out of the window of acceptable discourse for a few decades, or argue for the use of state power to stop - for example - relatively trivial acts of misogynist speech in a way that traditional liberals would have baulked at. Radical feminist analyses of domestic violence, rape etc have been embedded in official policy in some countries, and their critiques of pornography are also gaining traction in some circles. There's been a trend towards "radicalisation" of the nominal liberals as they move towards radical feminists on a number of issues. When we talk of "TERFs" we're using vocabulary that assumes problems with transphobia will necessarily be reserved to self-identified radical feminists, even though their principles are increasingly diffusing out of that narrow circle.

There has also been cross-pollination with Marxist and socialist feminisms - e.g. in the UK there was a big controversy in the Labour party over transwomen being allowed onto all-women shortlists that were set up on some seats to try and get more women MPs. I have also seen in some of the more fringe left spaces some feminists arguing that "transgenderism" was "produced" by a post-modern turn in social theory; which originated from "proper" Marxism - with its focus on the "material" and the "real" - being destroyed from the inside by traitorous revisionists with their deconstructive theories, who created new struggles as silly distractions from the real fight having been fooled by capitalist notions of "identity shopping" and the fetishization of "choice".

[Ifreann]

Wait, you're trans? I always thought you were a cis woman.

I guess I'm, like, the Solid Snake of stealthy (possibly) trans identity.

[Hediacrana]

Came out to some old friends (who I hadn't spoken to in ages) over the weekend. I had decided to show up at our meeting while wearing makeup; when one of them complimented me on it, I told them. They responded wonderfully! Not that I was worried, I knew them to be pretty open-minded, but still

[Auzkhia]

Came out to some old friends (who I hadn't spoken to in ages) over the weekend. I had decided to show up at our meeting while wearing makeup; when one of them complimented me on it, I told them. They responded wonderfully! Not that I was worried, I knew them to be pretty open-minded, but still

I will see one of my long time friends, he's obviously supportive and now I'm going by a different name and pronouns.