NationStates

Northern Davincia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
And it's pretty clear that that viewpoint's morally fucked up and completely wrong according to the interpretation of God being infallible, since there's no justifiable argument neither you nor the Catholic Church can make that reconciles that fact with this shitty idea you're peddling that God created certain humans to be forced to live torturous lives or to be cursed to damnation from their birth.

No one is cursed to damnation

Sure they are, if we're to accept your belief that your oh so infallible God didn't mean for LGBTQ+ people to be valid.

no one is being forced to live a torturous life.

Again, yes the fuck they are, considering A) what I just said above and B) the Vatican's recent declaration about forcing intersex infants into surgery, with no regard for human rights.

Northern Davincia wrote:

Hanafuridake wrote:
The difference being that a vaccine is used to prevent someone from catching or spreading dangerous diseases. Most intersex organizations aren't opposed to surgery when performed to save a child's life.

And in this instance, surgery would be done for the sake of easing into society, like removing an unneeded extra limb.

Intersex people manage to live in society just fine, in case you haven't noticed, the intersex community's response to the Vatican document wasn't happy.

Northern Davincia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
And it's pretty clear that that viewpoint's morally fucked up and completely wrong according to the interpretation of God being infallible, since there's no justifiable argument neither you nor the Catholic Church can make that reconciles that fact with this shitty idea you're peddling that God created certain humans to be forced to live torturous lives or to be cursed to damnation from their birth.

No one is cursed to damnation - that's a matter of choice - and no one is being forced to live a torturous life. Obviously the Vatican is not Calvinist.
Scripture encourages restraint in one's life, but I can't stop anyone from living incorrectly if they wish to.

"no one is being forced to live a torturous life" but we should definitely mutilate children's genitals to make them fit an arbitrary mold

Necroghastia wrote:

Northern Davincia wrote:No one is cursed to damnation - that's a matter of choice - and no one is being forced to live a torturous life. Obviously the Vatican is not Calvinist.
Scripture encourages restraint in one's life, but I can't stop anyone from living incorrectly if they wish to.

"no one is being forced to live a torturous life" but we should definitely mutilate children's genitals to make them fit an arbitrary mold

Ooh, ooh, we should also remind LGBTQ+ people every day of our lives that we're damned for hell just because of who we were born as!

Necroghastia wrote:

Northern Davincia wrote:No one is cursed to damnation - that's a matter of choice - and no one is being forced to live a torturous life. Obviously the Vatican is not Calvinist.
Scripture encourages restraint in one's life, but I can't stop anyone from living incorrectly if they wish to.

"no one is being forced to live a torturous life" but we should definitely mutilate children's genitals to make them fit an arbitrary mold

I don’t think they understand the mental and physical distress dysphoria can cause a trans person.

Galloism wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:
Y'all took your underwear off for gym class?

You can tell if there's a little extra something going on there whether you take off underwear or not.

That being said, it wasn't uncommon. Underwear can get dank after gym.

Even if any of this is true, and I think everyone else has raised many, many problems with that, there's a comparatively far higher risk that making the determination for the child and mutilating them is very bad. That risk is bigger than/I care more about it than a relatively low risk of bullying in certain limited social situations.

Sure, I hate the bullies you're describing. Yes, I agree with everyone else that there are many measures people can take to avoid or limit being bullied. Especially now that there's greater awareness.

But also in a world of forced choices, your objection is pedantic compared to the risks you are certain to incur.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:
"no one is being forced to live a torturous life" but we should definitely mutilate children's genitals to make them fit an arbitrary mold

I don’t think they understand the mental and physical distress dysphoria can cause a trans person.

Nah, clearly if we just pretend things are going All According To The Great Plan^TM, that'll mean all LGBTQ+ problems are actually nonexistent because God said so because God is infallible. Or something. Obviously. Duh.

Necroghastia wrote:

Northern Davincia wrote:No one is cursed to damnation - that's a matter of choice - and no one is being forced to live a torturous life. Obviously the Vatican is not Calvinist.
Scripture encourages restraint in one's life, but I can't stop anyone from living incorrectly if they wish to.

"no one is being forced to live a torturous life" but we should definitely mutilate children's genitals to make them fit an arbitrary mold

This post made me think about Jews, Arabs, and an uncomfortably large number of Americans.

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:

Northern Davincia wrote:And in this instance, surgery would be done for the sake of easing into society, like removing an unneeded extra limb.

I'm of the opinion that it should be the parent's right to decide.

Considering that vows of poverty are deemed noble in Christianity, earthly happiness is not worth pursuing as a be-all-end-all goal.

It's a little scummy to go to someone who's forced to live a romanceless life or forced to live in a body they hate and say "Earthly happiness is overrated tho."

And it is.

Torrocca wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
I don’t think they understand the mental and physical distress dysphoria can cause a trans person.

Nah, clearly if we just pretend things are going All According To The Great Plan^TM, that'll mean all LGBTQ+ problems are actually nonexistent because God said so because God is infallible. Or something. Obviously. Duh.

I maintain that if the claim that God is a god of love is true, LGBT people are his creation, he loves them and therefore that matter.

Northern Davincia wrote:

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:It's a little scummy to go to someone who's forced to live a romanceless life or forced to live in a body they hate and say "Earthly happiness is overrated tho."

And it is.

So... you agreee then?

Galloism wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:
"no one is being forced to live a torturous life" but we should definitely mutilate children's genitals to make them fit an arbitrary mold

This post made me think about Jews, Arabs, and an uncomfortably large number of Americans.

I mean, I'm definitely bitter over having been circumcised, especially since that means if I decide to go for SRS that means there's less... "raw material" to work with.

Necroghastia wrote:I mean, I'm definitely bitter over having been circumcised, especially since that means if I decide to go for SRS that means there's less... "raw material" to work with.

Not wanting to derail, but I had never heard this perspective on circumcision before and it definitely forces me to think through some of what I previously thought.

Thank you

Torrocca wrote:

Northern Davincia wrote:No one is cursed to damnation

Sure they are, if we're to accept your belief that your oh so infallible God didn't mean for LGBTQ+ people to be valid.

no one is being forced to live a torturous life.

Again, yes the fuck they are, considering A) what I just said above and B) the Vatican's recent declaration about forcing intersex infants into surgery, with no regard for human rights.

1. Only one's actions will condemn them to Hell. Nothing else.
2. What inherent aspect of the surgery forces someone to live a torturous life? Are they permanently incapable of finding happiness afterwards?

Torrocca wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:
"no one is being forced to live a torturous life" but we should definitely mutilate children's genitals to make them fit an arbitrary mold

Ooh, ooh, we should also remind LGBTQ+ people every day of our lives that we're damned for hell just because of who we were born as!

Please don't make me repeat myself.

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:

Northern Davincia wrote:And it is.

So... you agreee then?

Not with your overall statement, but with the idea that earthly happiness is overrated. It is.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
Nah, clearly if we just pretend things are going All According To The Great Plan^TM, that'll mean all LGBTQ+ problems are actually nonexistent because God said so because God is infallible. Or something. Obviously. Duh.

I maintain that if the claim that God is a god of love is true, LGBT people are his creation, he loves them and therefore that matter.

Yes, God loves everyone. He does not, however, love every action we perform.

Necroghastia wrote:

Galloism wrote:This post made me think about Jews, Arabs, and an uncomfortably large number of Americans.

I mean, I'm definitely bitter over having been circumcised, especially since that means if I decide to go for SRS that means there's less... "raw material" to work with.

Sorry to hear about that my friend. Nonetheless I wish you the best.

Northern Davincia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
Sure they are, if we're to accept your belief that your oh so infallible God didn't mean for LGBTQ+ people to be valid.



Again, yes the fuck they are, considering A) what I just said above and B) the Vatican's recent declaration about forcing intersex infants into surgery, with no regard for human rights.

1. Only one's actions will condemn them to Hell. Nothing else.
2. What inherent aspect of the surgery forces someone to live a torturous life? Are they permanently incapable of finding happiness afterwards?

Torrocca wrote:
Ooh, ooh, we should also remind LGBTQ+ people every day of our lives that we're damned for hell just because of who we were born as!

Please don't make me repeat myself.

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:So... you agreee then?

Not with your overall statement, but with the idea that earthly happiness is overrated. It is.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
I maintain that if the claim that God is a god of love is true, LGBT people are his creation, he loves them and therefore that matter.

Yes, God loves everyone. He does not, however, love every action we perform.

Doesn’t make LGBT people any less valid than you. Which is something you stated.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

Northern Davincia wrote:1. Only one's actions will condemn them to Hell. Nothing else.
2. What inherent aspect of the surgery forces someone to live a torturous life? Are they permanently incapable of finding happiness afterwards?

Please don't make me repeat myself.

Not with your overall statement, but with the idea that earthly happiness is overrated. It is.

Yes, God loves everyone. He does not, however, love every action we perform.

Doesn’t make LGBT people any less valid than you. Which is something you stated.

How are we defining valid?

Northern Davincia wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Doesn’t make LGBT people any less valid than you. Which is something you stated.

How are we defining valid?

LGBT people are people. Right? In the sense of religion, they’re part of God’s creation. Right? God is purported to be loving. Right? God also gives us free will. Right? Therefore they have a right to be who they want to be, even if there are consequences. Right? Because to God, a purported god of love, his creation matters and it has rights.

the poll question i have absolutely no slightest idea.

i'm just happy for anything (reasonably harmless) that lowers the human birth rate.

most people i know anymore think of themselves as something other then what they were born with,
and why not. i'm more interested in retractable claws and prehensile tails then gender polarity though.

and humans of any gender don't have the best looking faces in the galaxy.

i'm proud to have grown up without the prejudices of my parent's generation.
but other then that, most things human don't interest me as much as most things not human.

i like pretty colors, and imagination, which is where joy in life comes from.

Northern Davincia wrote:Yes, God loves everyone. He does not, however, love every action we perform.

God should find something better to do with their time than care who we have sex with or whether people born with penises identify as women.

This distinction also doesn't make sense with regards to anything other than homosexuality. Which reveals that opposition to everything else (non-conforming performances of gender, transgender people, asexuality, etc.) is really just moralistic bigotry passing as religion. And also reveals that the original opposition to homosexuality was ALSO still that same arbitrary bigotry.

Does God still love me even though I don't experience romantic or sexual attraction? I don't know. Don't care. Don't know why God cares.
If I didn't identify with my biological sex, I don't know how that's an "action" or why God cares.

Northern Davincia wrote:Being born with an extra arm is an abnormality, but removing it is not an act of malice.

Barring medical necessity, cutting off someone's arm without consent is always an act of malice.

Necroghastia wrote:

Galloism wrote:This post made me think about Jews, Arabs, and an uncomfortably large number of Americans.

I mean, I'm definitely bitter over having been circumcised, especially since that means if I decide to go for SRS that means there's less... "raw material" to work with.

Me too, even though I've already had SRS with no problems. Infant circumcision is a crime against humanity and should be banned with a very long jail sentence.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
Nah, clearly if we just pretend things are going All According To The Great Plan^TM, that'll mean all LGBTQ+ problems are actually nonexistent because God said so because God is infallible. Or something. Obviously. Duh.

I maintain that if the claim that God is a god of love is true, LGBT people are his creation, he loves them and therefore that matter.

A big thank you for voicing and reiterating that perspective over the last few pages.

First American Empire wrote:

Northern Davincia wrote:Being born with an extra arm is an abnormality, but removing it is not an act of malice.

Barring medical necessity, cutting off someone's arm without consent is always an act of malice.

Umm... we routinely cut off extra arms, legs, fingers without it being strictly necessary, just inconvenient or vestigial.

There's actually an interesting wiki article on the subject.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymelia

Northern Davincia wrote:Because race and sex are not abnormalities, they're quite normal. Being born with an extra arm is an abnormality, but removing it is not an act of malice.

It’s called bodily autonomy. Most people don’t think they’re being malicious doing circumcision but it’s hardly recommended in European countries at this point (or done in the US as much.) Intersex people tend to be gender variant, from what I can tell, and their genitals are rather personal to them in that regard. It really means very little if one isn’t being malicious, in fact it’s an attempt to demean and dismiss the other person’s sovereignty.