TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

There is some of that. What I’ve seen is that the environment many of them live in doesn’t lend itself for disclosure. Families are perhaps too conservative and do not view transgender people in a good light.

And for a trans person, if there isn’t family support, coming out and transitioning gets doubly difficult. Some do create strong friend and community support structures, but if the family were to be supportive, I’m sure things in term of expression and treatments (if needed), would have better outcomes and more visibility.

I have a supportive family, and as a result, I smoothly transitioned socially within the time span of 3 months thanks to their willingness to help. It's seriously so huge having a supportive family, especially if you're an adolescent who relies on them for paying for medications.

Then you’re lucky. I wish that were the case for all the trans people that call the help line, though. Many are desperate teens and I can see the sense of helplessness the operators feel because shy of listening to them and pointing out possible shelters provided by volunteers to those who face being kicked out of the family home, there isn’t much more they can do.

[Grenartia]

No "victim complex" here, fam.

We can as self delusion the list as well, I guess

Or maybe you're deluded that I'm deluded?

lolwut.

You denied that you slandered me as transphobic for not being attracted to transphobic,

*transpeople.

and when I furthered the assertion with an example you caved and basically asked “what else would I do?” So thank you for coming clean after lying about it.

I want direct quotes from when I allegedly said any of that.

Surely, you can back that assertion up.

I don’t even need to, it’s quite self evident that the issues sod interracial dating are not the same issues around transgenderism. Your sophistry here is plainly evident,

Ah, but both examples are comparable, in that they both involve someone being mistreated not for the content of their character, but because of an intrinsic characteristic that shouldn't matter.

Today, I learned that growing as a person and becoming a better person are attributes of a "weak-minded" person.

You get an F for the day, because that wasn’t the lesson. The way you explained it suggests you changed your thinking because someone told you that thought was racist. Someone shamed you into changing your convictions. That’s not personal growth, that’s being manipulated and controlled. Now if you had changed your thinking as a result of serious investigation and reflection, that would be personal growth.

You'll never believe I actually did serious investigation and reflection, no matter what I say, because you automatically assume the worst about me, because you like to demonize me. You never come here in good faith, you and your ilk always come around here to concern troll, and to bait me and the other trans people here.

I never let anyone "shame" me into believing anything. I took the opportunity of being criticized to re-evaluate my thoughts and actions on things, in light of new evidence.

yeah someone called you a racist and you balked. Great story.

Better than being so fucking bull-headed that you wouldn't accept being told 2+2=4 if someone conclusively proved it to you.

I’ve been on Siri about her drinking habit, but it’s an uphill battle.

Use a computer with an actual fucking keyboard. Problem solved.

Might point you toward the entire lgbt movement? I believe you’re familiar.

And how did we get science on our side?

Facts you don’t agree with are bigoted *nods*

Facts you don't agree with are "biased".

Yes that was the wisecrack I made. Sexuality isn’t just genotype, but a complex relationship between genotype and phenotype. Artificially altering the body doesn’t change phenotypic expression, the same way putting a hood ornament on my Ford Focus doesn’t make it a Mercedes Benz.

What a fucking copout.

Not quite.

Here's where the cognitive dissonance sets in for you.

Well it’s coming out of your mouth, so the powers is yours to stop it

The nonstop bullshit fountain is spewing forth from your account, not mine.

I've never seen "sealions" do anything of the sort. Even when evidence is, in fact, dismissed, it's usually for being absolute garbage evidence (a post on a blog (even if it presents itself as "journalistic"), a discredited paper from over 20 years ago, or just completely misinterpreting something that may actually be evidence contrary to them), not even related (posting a Youtube video on how ackshully the Soviets were gud bois in a discussion about the Napoleonic Wars), having already been brought up by someone, or is dismissed with counter-evidence in tow.

I've never seen evidence "casually disregarded" without a good reason (ie the ones listed above).

Proct confirmed for sealion. Don't bother responding, btw, I'm blocking you as soon as this post gets submitted.

it's almost as if age is not a mental thing at all, and not really comparable to gender.

Also, seeing trans people debate which kind of trans people are real is always sad. Like I know people who have very fluid sexual identities, and that doesn't get questioned nearly as much as gender fluidity. We seem to want there to be a concrete biological reason for queerness, but while that may be a component, I don't think that is the end all be all. Plus, I am pretty sure studies haven't been done on gender fluid people's brains, who knows, they might actually change. The brain studies are just on what structures "light up", the actual physical brain is not that different from what I understand. Gender fluid people might actually have fluid brains. And if they don't, I don't really care. Personal identity is personal identity, and gender doesn't hurt anyone. I'm afraid if we focus too much on the brain research that is going to be a whole new form of gatekeeping because they may start scanning us to see if our brains are "male" or "female" enough and that's just scary.

Even worse than that, certain groups, backed up even by certain individuals in this thread, will find a way to try and "cure" us. Imagine conversion therapy crossed with a lobotomy, and that is the nightmare that will come to life if those people have their way.

So when I started college I joined my schools equestrian team because it was an incredibly affordable way for me to learn to ride (I had worked at a horse barn all summer, but never actually rode horses, just took care of them). This isn't something I would have ever done when I was presenting as female, but felt fine doing now. I am literally the only thing that makes my schools equestrian team coed, but I don't feel uncomfortable doing a female dominated sport.

I'm wondering if this is a common thing, do people feel more comfortable breaking gender norms after transitioning? Or do you just avoid "opposite" gender activities all together?

I mean, there's a lot of trans girl gamers, and that's a pretty man-dominated hobby. You just gotta make room for yourself in there.

As I said before, utterly ridiculous.

Fam, I used to be as skeptical as you on this, but the fact is, its a valid thing.

Also, hobbies really shouldn't be gendered anyway.

Ultimately, this.

Exactly. As it is currently, the psychological understanding of gender (from what I can tell, of course) recognizes genderfluidity as a real concept, but one that needs more understanding.

Its almost as if gender itself isn't fully understood by science!

At this point, all I can fucking assume is that you're being deliberately disingenuous as all hell to try and dismiss the evidence you've been given.

Sounds like his MO. He could be a professional toll collector for a bridge.

That was clear like 2 pages years ago, but yeah.

Fixed. Though, honestly, it was clear waaay more than 2 years ago, at least to me.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's not interested in discussion, only his own confirmation bias.

He's looking for a conclusion, and it's the one that he wants, not the one that already exists.

I'm genderfluid, by the by, if anyone's interested.

Congrats on coming out!

tbh part of me thinks the MAP bullshit is going to be the next big push for equality for some people after trans rights are really solidified and that thought makes me really angry

Fuck that absolute load of horseshit.

You know, the fucking thought that we'd even consider defending kiddie-diddlers makes me (and I feel safe going out on a limb and saying the rest of the LGBT+ community) really fucking angry, as long as we're talking about infuriating thoughts. Get out of here with that "teh gayz are pedo and pedo enablers" gaslighting, flamebaiting bullshit.

I think the fact that that demonstrably harms people makes it very unlikely to be a cause supported by anyone but pedophiles.

Like, I've actually known and cared about people who've struggled with it. But I'd never, ever, EVER, in a million, billion, trillion fucking years, EVER make excuses for them acting on their predilections. It is a terrible sickness that nobody would ever choose to have, and definitely needs better methods of treating, but neither of those things makes it ok to act on.

So about those trans issues...

Contrapoints put out a video about her Facial Feminization Surgery the other day.

[Proctopeo]

I've never seen "sealions" do anything of the sort. Even when evidence is, in fact, dismissed, it's usually for being absolute garbage evidence (a post on a blog (even if it presents itself as "journalistic"), a discredited paper from over 20 years ago, or just completely misinterpreting something that may actually be evidence contrary to them), not even related (posting a Youtube video on how ackshully the Soviets were gud bois in a discussion about the Napoleonic Wars), having already been brought up by someone, or is dismissed with counter-evidence in tow.

I've never seen evidence "casually disregarded" without a good reason (ie the ones listed above).

Proct confirmed for sealion. Don't bother responding, btw, I'm blocking you as soon as this post gets submitted.

I'm sorry that people wanting evidence is so offensive to you, Gren.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Oh, Contra’s video on her facial feminization surgeries made me chuckle so much. But she always does. Must say that her take on why is it that so many women seek to be or present as beautiful resonated with me. And her ASMR on her sequined dress... my sides!

[Grenartia]

Oh, Contra’s video on her facial feminization surgeries made me chuckle so much. But she always does. Must say that her take on why is it that so many women seek to be or present as beautiful resonated with me. And her ASMR on her sequined dress... my sides!

She's always brilliant.

Though, to be honest, I actually didn't notice any changes until she posted the side-by-side. And I never really thought she didn't pass. In fact, I'd dare say even her pre-surgery face is transition goals, at least for me.

[Hediacrana]

I have a supportive family, and as a result, I smoothly transitioned socially within the time span of 3 months thanks to their willingness to help. It's seriously so huge having a supportive family, especially if you're an adolescent who relies on them for paying for medications.

Then you’re lucky. I wish that were the case for all the trans people that call the help line, though. Many are desperate teens and I can see the sense of helplessness the operators feel because shy of listening to them and pointing out possible shelters provided by volunteers to those who face being kicked out of the family home, there isn’t much more they can do.

I know I'm not the first to say this, but really, you're awesome for doing that helpline stuff.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Oh, Contra’s video on her facial feminization surgeries made me chuckle so much. But she always does. Must say that her take on why is it that so many women seek to be or present as beautiful resonated with me. And her ASMR on her sequined dress... my sides!

She's always brilliant.

Though, to be honest, I actually didn't notice any changes until she posted the side-by-side. And I never really thought she didn't pass. In fact, I'd dare say even her pre-surgery face is transition goals, at least for me.

I did notice the difference with her nose, but I agree. Even before surgery, she was looking fab.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Then you’re lucky. I wish that were the case for all the trans people that call the help line, though. Many are desperate teens and I can see the sense of helplessness the operators feel because shy of listening to them and pointing out possible shelters provided by volunteers to those who face being kicked out of the family home, there isn’t much more they can do.

I know I'm not the first to say this, but really, you're awesome for doing that helpline stuff.

You’re too kind and I don’t think I deserve the praise. I just do it because for one, I’m part of the LGBT community and, two, I have transgender people in my life I care about. A lot. Helping, even if it is in the smallest way, it’s the least I can do. I wish I could do more.

[Grenartia]

I know I'm not the first to say this, but really, you're awesome for doing that helpline stuff.

You’re too kind and I don’t think I deserve the praise. I just do it because for one, I’m part of the LGBT community and, two, I have transgender people in my life I care about. A lot. Helping, even if it is in the smallest way, it’s the least I can do. I wish I could do more.

FWIW, that's why I OP this thread (admittedly, not as well as I could, and I need to work on that). Even if I never get a chance to transition, I want there to continue to be a place for this community here, its the least I can do to give back for the support that numerous people here gave me in the past.

Its probably the one thing that keeps from breaking multiple rules simultaneously when we get raided by certain individuals.

[Iciaros]

Then you’re lucky. I wish that were the case for all the trans people that call the help line, though. Many are desperate teens and I can see the sense of helplessness the operators feel because shy of listening to them and pointing out possible shelters provided by volunteers to those who face being kicked out of the family home, there isn’t much more they can do.

I know I'm not the first to say this, but really, you're awesome for doing that helpline stuff.

I can't agree more. Personally, I've never gone through helplines or support groups or stuff, because I've been fortunate enough not to really have needed needed them, but I hear a lot of stories about trans suffering and I can't overstate how awesome I think it is to help out, even if it can't do as much as we wish it could. The willingness to help is plenty, and I know that even if you can't help everyone, there will be a few people out there who would not be where they are today if not for you, and that is worth the world to them.

FWIW, that's why I OP this thread (admittedly, not as well as I could, and I need to work on that). Even if I never get a chance to transition, I want there to continue to be a place for this community here, its the least I can do to give back for the support that numerous people here gave me in the past.

And that goes for the thread too, really. Debates aside, this place really feels like somewhere I belong, even if it's mostly lurking, and I'm sure it's helped people too - I came in about the time Xeno started wondering about being trans, iirc, and it feels like she's come so far since then. Thank you so much, Gren. This thread is worth a lot.

[Grenartia]

I know I'm not the first to say this, but really, you're awesome for doing that helpline stuff.

I can't agree more. Personally, I've never gone through helplines or support groups or stuff, because I've been fortunate enough not to really have needed needed them, but I hear a lot of stories about trans suffering and I can't overstate how awesome I think it is to help out, even if it can't do as much as we wish it could. The willingness to help is plenty, and I know that even if you can't help everyone, there will be a few people out there who would not be where they are today if not for you, and that is worth the world to them.

FWIW, that's why I OP this thread (admittedly, not as well as I could, and I need to work on that). Even if I never get a chance to transition, I want there to continue to be a place for this community here, its the least I can do to give back for the support that numerous people here gave me in the past.

And that goes for the thread too, really. Debates aside, this place really feels like somewhere I belong, even if it's mostly lurking, and I'm sure it's helped people too - I came in about the time Xeno started wondering about being trans, iirc, and it feels like she's come so far since then. Thank you so much, Gren. This thread is worth a lot.

Hearing stuff like that really touches me, and I'm glad this space is helpful, even despite the shitstorms that are required to plague it.

[The Rich Port]

Oh, Contra’s video on her facial feminization surgeries made me chuckle so much. But she always does. Must say that her take on why is it that so many women seek to be or present as beautiful resonated with me. And her ASMR on her sequined dress... my sides!

She's so damn fierce and self-aware, I love her XD

[Hediacrana]

You’re too kind and I don’t think I deserve the praise. I just do it because for one, I’m part of the LGBT community and, two, I have transgender people in my life I care about. A lot. Helping, even if it is in the smallest way, it’s the least I can do. I wish I could do more.

To me right now, just knowing there are allies like you going out of their way for us is already helpful in itself.

FWIW, that's why I OP this thread (admittedly, not as well as I could, and I need to work on that). Even if I never get a chance to transition, I want there to continue to be a place for this community here, its the least I can do to give back for the support that numerous people here gave me in the past.

And that goes for the thread too, really. Debates aside, this place really feels like somewhere I belong, even if it's mostly lurking, and I'm sure it's helped people too - I came in about the time Xeno started wondering about being trans, iirc, and it feels like she's come so far since then. Thank you so much, Gren. This thread is worth a lot.

Amen to every word of that, especially the underlined.

I'm glad this space is helpful, even despite the shitstorms that are required to plague it.

I actually blocked a slew of posters yesterday, because I'm here for the productive and helpful conversations, not for the other stuff.

In other news: good news from Brazil (and God knows that country can use it these days), where the top court voted to criminalize homophobia and transphobia.

[Grenartia]

And that goes for the thread too, really. Debates aside, this place really feels like somewhere I belong, even if it's mostly lurking, and I'm sure it's helped people too - I came in about the time Xeno started wondering about being trans, iirc, and it feels like she's come so far since then. Thank you so much, Gren. This thread is worth a lot.

Amen to every word of that, especially the underlined.

I'm glad this space is helpful, even despite the shitstorms that are required to plague it.

I actually blocked a slew of posters yesterday, because I'm here for the productive and helpful conversations, not for the other stuff.

In other news: good news from Brazil (and God knows that country can use it these days), where the top court voted to criminalize homophobia and transphobia.

Hopefully Bolsonaro doesn't fuck it up.

[Iciaros]

I actually blocked a slew of posters yesterday, because I'm here for the productive and helpful conversations, not for the other stuff.

I shoudl probably do that too, now that I think about it. I use the Foe list a bit too little.

In other news: good news from Brazil (and God knows that country can use it these days), where the top court voted to criminalize homophobia and transphobia.

YES! Go Brazilian Supreme Court!

Hopefully Bolsonaro doesn't fuck it up.

If I understand correctly, the ruling was made on the basis that homo- and transphobia is unconstitutional. That'd mean Bolsonaro can't just screw it up with normal legislation, he'd have to pass a constitutional amendment. He'll need 3/5ths in Congress for that, more than usual (I think). I don't know if he has the numbers for that, but at least it'll be a little harder.

[Grenartia]

I actually blocked a slew of posters yesterday, because I'm here for the productive and helpful conversations, not for the other stuff.

I shoudl probably do that too, now that I think about it. I use the Foe list a bit too little.

In other news: good news from Brazil (and God knows that country can use it these days), where the top court voted to criminalize homophobia and transphobia.

YES! Go Brazilian Supreme Court!

Hopefully Bolsonaro doesn't fuck it up.

If I understand correctly, the ruling was made on the basis that homo- and transphobia is unconstitutional. That'd mean Bolsonaro can't just screw it up with normal legislation, he'd have to pass a constitutional amendment. He'll need 3/5ths in Congress for that, more than usual (I think). I don't know if he has the numbers for that, but at least it'll be a little harder.

I mean, what's there to stop him pulling an Andrew Jackson and disregarding the court's ruling?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Oh, Contra’s video on her facial feminization surgeries made me chuckle so much. But she always does. Must say that her take on why is it that so many women seek to be or present as beautiful resonated with me. And her ASMR on her sequined dress... my sides!

She's so damn fierce and self-aware, I love her XD

I like that she’s perfectly capable of making fun of herself. Her take on incels was awesome. Her take on how she felt as she began her transition was pivotal for me when it came to have an idea of how my trans friends were feeling. The approach is not always pretty, but it helps that it is that way. Keeps it grounded in reality.

[Cappuccina]

I have a supportive family, and as a result, I smoothly transitioned socially within the time span of 3 months thanks to their willingness to help. It's seriously so huge having a supportive family, especially if you're an adolescent who relies on them for paying for medications.

Then you’re lucky. I wish that were the case for all the trans people that call the help line, though. Many are desperate teens and I can see the sense of helplessness the operators feel because shy of listening to them and pointing out possible shelters provided by volunteers to those who face being kicked out of the family home, there isn’t much more they can do.

Some so-called conservatives ignore walking the walk in the "family values" department. You're supposed to stay with your blood through thick and thin, not when it's convenient for you.

[Iciaros]

I mean, what's there to stop him pulling an Andrew Jackson and disregarding the court's ruling?

Geez. As a law student, that kind of thing is unthinkable to me. It might screw with the whole 'rule of law' thing, though, which might have some pretty big impacts down the line. I don't know very much about what Jackson did, but from a quick search, it appears to be debatable whether or not he actually disregarded the Supreme Court ruling. Bolsonaro's going to have to somehow dance a fancy dance if he wants to get around the ruling without outright disregarding it. If he does want to straight up disregard it... I wonder what might happen to Brazil.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Then you’re lucky. I wish that were the case for all the trans people that call the help line, though. Many are desperate teens and I can see the sense of helplessness the operators feel because shy of listening to them and pointing out possible shelters provided by volunteers to those who face being kicked out of the family home, there isn’t much more they can do.

Some so-called conservatives ignore walking the walk in the "family values" department. You're supposed to stay with your blood through thick and thin, not when it's convenient for you.

Blood is not always thicker than water. For some, having a transgender kid is a deal breaker. And that’s sad. I always ask this: “would you rather lose a child rather than accept that instead of a son now you have a daughter or instead of a daughter now you have a son?” I don’t have kids myself, although my husband and I are currently working on spawning. But I know that if I were to have a trans kid, I’d rather keep them in the family, even if that means losing a son or a daughter. If I gain and support them, in whatever gender expression they have, it’s really all that matters to me.

[Cappuccina]

Some so-called conservatives ignore walking the walk in the "family values" department. You're supposed to stay with your blood through thick and thin, not when it's convenient for you.

Blood is not always thicker than water. For some, having a transgender kid is a deal breaker. And that’s sad. I always ask this: “would you rather lose a child rather than accept that instead of a son now you have a daughter or instead of a daughter now you have a son?” I don’t have kids myself, although my husband and I are currently working on spawning. But I know that if I were to have a trans kid, I’d rather keep them in the family, even if that means losing a son or a daughter. If I gain and support them, in whatever gender expression they have, it’s really all that matters to me.

I agree, people bring politics before family, it's honestly disgusting.


Also, "spawning" made me chuckle.

[The Blaatschapen]

tbh part of me thinks the MAP bullshit is going to be the next big push for equality for some people after trans rights are really solidified and that thought makes me really angry

I seriously doubt that. The only people who think the LGBT movement at all supports pedophiles are people looking to slander it completely, or they want to believe that that's true because it means their dislike of homosexuality is therefore justifiable.

Even my parents, who dislike homosexuals, aren't so ridiculous as to directly associate the two concepts.

It's literally an Ancient view of homosexuality, Ancient Greek view, to be precise.

It's such a barbaric view nowadays.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Blood is not always thicker than water. For some, having a transgender kid is a deal breaker. And that’s sad. I always ask this: “would you rather lose a child rather than accept that instead of a son now you have a daughter or instead of a daughter now you have a son?” I don’t have kids myself, although my husband and I are currently working on spawning. But I know that if I were to have a trans kid, I’d rather keep them in the family, even if that means losing a son or a daughter. If I gain and support them, in whatever gender expression they have, it’s really all that matters to me.

I agree, people bring politics before family, it's honestly disgusting.


Also, "spawning" made me chuckle.

Hey, that’s what I call it. We spawn.

[Auzkhia]

I am legally changing my name I filled a petition and other paperwork at my county courthouse and I got a hearing scheduled three months later. I am glad to expunge my dead name from driver's license, passport, and other documents.

---

Oh, Contra’s video on her facial feminization surgeries made me chuckle so much. But she always does. Must say that her take on why is it that so many women seek to be or present as beautiful resonated with me. And her ASMR on her sequined dress... my sides!

I really liked that video and it really shows how beauty standards run deep with social power and reflect the privileged. She does have her fabulous aesthetic.

I didn't notice the differences until she compared her pre and post op profiles. She had a few millimeters of bone shorn off but it does make some difference and she is happy with the results.

[Cekoviu]

I am legally changing my name I filled a petition and other paperwork at my county courthouse and I got a hearing scheduled three months later. I am glad to expunge my dead name from driver's license, passport, and other documents.

---

Oh, Contra’s video on her facial feminization surgeries made me chuckle so much. But she always does. Must say that her take on why is it that so many women seek to be or present as beautiful resonated with me. And her ASMR on her sequined dress... my sides!

I really liked that video and it really shows how beauty standards run deep with social power and reflect the privileged. She does have her fabulous aesthetic.

I didn't notice the differences until she compared her pre and post op profiles. She had a few millimeters of bone shorn off but it does make some difference and she is happy with the results.

Tbh I don't think it would be really necessary for someone as naturally pretty as her to get FFS, but whatever floats her boat.