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Trans Discussion Thread 4: #GCIsCancelledParty

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should I OP the next thread?

Yes
17
41%
No
16
39%
Abstain
7
17%
Unsure
1
2%
 
Total votes : 41

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue May 21, 2019 4:35 pm

Cappuccina wrote:Well, somebody sure is angry.

Idk, why "trap" would be offensive to anyone, not like people aren't gonna do a trendy "reclaiming" of the word in like two years anyways.


And that's... A bad thing to you?

Some people would say that reclaiming words isn't even that useful, since it just normalizes slurs.

I somewhat disagree, but it's certainly more effective in some instances more than others.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Necroghastia wrote:I have a hard time believing you truly don't care when you're putting this much effort into arguing.


Imagine asking someone for a pen and being handed a stick of gum. You repeat the request for a pen and are offered gum again, and again, and again and despite the gum hander hearing you and acknowledging your request multiple times they continue to give you gum. You don't care about the gum. You never cared about the gum. The issue is that the thing you do care about, the thing you're requesting is consistently being denied to you and this gum-handing person is increasingly becoming outraged that you aren't satisfied with how much gum you've been given.

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Tue May 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:I have a hard time believing you truly don't care when you're putting this much effort into arguing.


Imagine asking someone for a pen and being handed a stick of gum. You repeat the request for a pen and are offered gum again, and again, and again and despite the gum hander hearing you and acknowledging your request multiple times they continue to give you gum. You don't care about the gum. You never cared about the gum. The issue is that the thing you do care about, the thing you're requesting is consistently being denied to you and this gum-handing person is increasingly becoming outraged that you aren't satisfied with how much gum you've been given.

Ngl I chuckled a bit reading this scenario.
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Cappuccina
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Postby Cappuccina » Tue May 21, 2019 4:42 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Well, somebody sure is angry.

Idk, why "trap" would be offensive to anyone, not like people aren't gonna do a trendy "reclaiming" of the word in like two years anyways.


And that's... A bad thing to you?

Some people would say that reclaiming words isn't even that useful, since it just normalizes slurs.

I somewhat disagree, but it's certainly more effective in some instances more than others.


It's the same as black people getting mad at being called a nigger, and then using "nigga" to refer to eachother..... it's hilarious. You have gay men and lesbians that call themselves "faggots" and "queers" too.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue May 21, 2019 4:43 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:I have a hard time believing you truly don't care when you're putting this much effort into arguing.


Imagine asking someone for a pen and being handed a stick of gum. You repeat the request for a pen and are offered gum again, and again, and again and despite the gum hander hearing you and acknowledging your request multiple times they continue to give you gum. You don't care about the gum. You never cared about the gum. The issue is that the thing you do care about, the thing you're requesting is consistently being denied to you and this gum-handing person is increasingly becoming outraged that you aren't satisfied with how much gum you've been given.


And what is the thing you do care about? Which is to say, what's your stake in fighting so tooth and nail over this subject?
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 4:45 pm

Torrocca wrote:

Did you not bother reading the last sentence of the description? it outright implies exactly that situation of the main character getting "tricked".

And how the fuck is "trap" not when you're being fucking told by trans people that it is used just like that against us?!

Even if that were true, that doesn't magically make it not a slur, for fuck sake.


Good for you. Since you don't care so much, how soon do you plan on stopping arguing in favor of this bullshit of yours that "trap" isn't a slur?


You yourself just literally fucking admitted a word's a slur when it denigrates and insults, so your entire bullshit argument here about how trap's magically not a slur when it denigrates and insults trans people is the biggest load of contradictory bullshit you could possibly come up with.


As much as I love to argue about the nuances of language in the description of pornography this is not the evidence you think it is.

Because you haven't provided a single instance of that happening much less evidence it's a problem. At this point it looks an awful lot like rainbow parties or aids needles being hidden in gas pumps- exceedingly rare and totally eclipsed by the outrage.

The word trap is used to describe cisgender men and almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people. It's not ant-transgender slur, it's not even about transgender people.

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue May 21, 2019 4:45 pm

Cappuccina wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
And that's... A bad thing to you?

Some people would say that reclaiming words isn't even that useful, since it just normalizes slurs.

I somewhat disagree, but it's certainly more effective in some instances more than others.


It's the same as black people getting mad at being called a nigger, and then using "nigga" to refer to eachother..... it's hilarious. You have gay men and lesbians that call themselves "faggots" and "queers" too.


Yeah, because they're trying to downplay the effect the words have on them by taking them out of their context.

It happens between people who are close to each other, BUT, and this is key here, it depends on the context and on the group of people involved. I have black friends that get offended when I DON'T feel comfortable saying it. That doesn't apply to all groups of mixed race friends.

Specifically, how you're using the word and whether they buy that you're using it in a non-malicious manner.

How is that "hilarious"?
Last edited by The Rich Port on Tue May 21, 2019 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pronouns: If you want me to feel pretty and extraordinary, call me she. If you want me to feel handsome and masculine, call me he.
NOW WITH SUPER SECRET VIP CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSION DISCORD. INQUIRE VIA TELEGRAM.

Coronavirus is real, and a real problem. Do not panic, but please educate yourself and take steps to protect yourself and your loved ones. Pray for the sick.
LAUGH, AND GROW FAT
THOSE THAT SOW THORNS SHOULD NOT EXPECT FLOWERS
YOU NEVER KNOW JUST HOW YOU LOOK THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE'S EYES

Tracking | History | Factbook | Dharma
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CAPINTERN | OMSA | OZZY | PACT | APAC
Summary | Vanguard | The Book Of Sue
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LOVEWHOYOUARE~


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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 4:46 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
And what is the thing you do care about? Which is to say, what's your stake in fighting so tooth and nail over this subject?


Distracting myself from the inevitability of death until the next time I have to sleep or work, that would be the reason for my voluntary participation in a discussion thread.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue May 21, 2019 4:47 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:

Did you not bother reading the last sentence of the description? it outright implies exactly that situation of the main character getting "tricked".

And how the fuck is "trap" not when you're being fucking told by trans people that it is used just like that against us?!

Even if that were true, that doesn't magically make it not a slur, for fuck sake.


Good for you. Since you don't care so much, how soon do you plan on stopping arguing in favor of this bullshit of yours that "trap" isn't a slur?


You yourself just literally fucking admitted a word's a slur when it denigrates and insults, so your entire bullshit argument here about how trap's magically not a slur when it denigrates and insults trans people is the biggest load of contradictory bullshit you could possibly come up with.


As much as I love to argue about the nuances of language in the description of pornography this is not the evidence you think it is.

Because you haven't provided a single instance of that happening much less evidence it's a problem. At this point it looks an awful lot like rainbow parties or aids needles being hidden in gas pumps- exceedingly rare and totally eclipsed by the outrage.

The word trap is used to describe cisgender men and almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people. It's not ant-transgender slur, it's not even about transgender people.


"Almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people"

Then why the fuck is the choice word here trap?
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 4:49 pm

Des-Bal wrote:Because you haven't provided a single instance of that happening much less evidence it's a problem. At this point it looks an awful lot like rainbow parties or aids needles being hidden in gas pumps- exceedingly rare and totally eclipsed by the outrage.


How about a single instance that just happened to me, since you and Proct seemed so cocksure about putting my honesty into doubt earlier?

I'm sure you won't care, though, because I'm a trans person telling you it's a fucking slur, and you've made it abundantly fucking clear that you don't care how many trans people tell you the same thing. Which is why I reiterate: I don't give a fuck about your thoughts about how much you care about that regarding this matter.

The word trap is used to describe cisgender men and almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people.


Do you not even understand what "trap" means as a word? The whole fucking implication is that they're maliciously tricking people, Jesus fucking Christ.

It's not ant-transgender slur, it's not even about transgender people.


Repeating this shit to yourself doesn't make it any less false.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 4:50 pm

Necroghastia wrote:"Almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people"

Then why the fuck is the choice word here trap?


Admiral Ackbar and the fact that what is expected is not what is discovered.

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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 4:50 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
As much as I love to argue about the nuances of language in the description of pornography this is not the evidence you think it is.

Because you haven't provided a single instance of that happening much less evidence it's a problem. At this point it looks an awful lot like rainbow parties or aids needles being hidden in gas pumps- exceedingly rare and totally eclipsed by the outrage.

The word trap is used to describe cisgender men and almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people. It's not ant-transgender slur, it's not even about transgender people.


"Almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people"

Then why the fuck is the choice word here trap?


It's totally just a big old coincidence that the word of choice is "trap", duh.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
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Cappuccina
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Postby Cappuccina » Tue May 21, 2019 4:50 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:
It's the same as black people getting mad at being called a nigger, and then using "nigga" to refer to eachother..... it's hilarious. You have gay men and lesbians that call themselves "faggots" and "queers" too.


Yeah, because they're trying to downplay the effect the words have on them by taking them out of their context.

It happens between people who are close to each other, BUT, and this is key here, it depends on the context and on the group of people involved. I have black friends that get offended when I DON'T feel comfortable saying it. That doesn't apply to all groups of mixed race friends.

Specifically, how you're using the word and whether they buy that you're using it in a non-malicious manner.

How is that "hilarious"?


It's hilarious because people like to pick and choose when a word is a slur, usually rather arbitrarily. It's a slur whenever it's convenient for it to be.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue May 21, 2019 4:50 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:"Almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people"

Then why the fuck is the choice word here trap?


Admiral Ackbar and the fact that what is expected is not what is discovered.


Source.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 4:51 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:"Almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people"

Then why the fuck is the choice word here trap?


Admiral Ackbar and the fact that what is expected is not what is discovered.


I love how you keep on contradicting yourself with what you're saying. It's really amazing, honestly.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Tue May 21, 2019 4:55 pm

Wow, slurs discourse time again?

Here's our last chance at some decent debate and nuance.

Let's assume for the sake of an argument that "trap" isn't not a slur and only refers to male crossdressers. There would be no good reason to a call trans woman that, unless you tried to invalidate her or believed she wasn't really a woman. Even in the best case, it's still offensive, because being trans is not crossdressing.

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue May 21, 2019 4:58 pm

Cappuccina wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
Yeah, because they're trying to downplay the effect the words have on them by taking them out of their context.

It happens between people who are close to each other, BUT, and this is key here, it depends on the context and on the group of people involved. I have black friends that get offended when I DON'T feel comfortable saying it. That doesn't apply to all groups of mixed race friends.

Specifically, how you're using the word and whether they buy that you're using it in a non-malicious manner.

How is that "hilarious"?


It's hilarious because people like to pick and choose when a word is a slur, usually rather arbitrarily. It's a slur whenever it's convenient for it to be.


Which... Yeah.

Would you like it if people used "Cracker" or "Merkin" or "Peckerwood" on census forms instead of "Caucasian" or "White"?

Slurs are inconvenient, usually, for the people who are called it.
Last edited by The Rich Port on Tue May 21, 2019 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CAPINTERN | OMSA | OZZY | PACT | APAC
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 4:59 pm

Torrocca wrote:\

How about a single instance that just happened to me, since you and Proct seemed so cocksure about putting my honesty into doubt earlier?

-STRICKEN: I don't care-


Do you not even understand what "trap" means as a word? The whole fucking implication is that they're maliciously tricking people, Jesus fucking Christ.

Repeating this shit to yourself doesn't make it any less false.


Yeah I got one of those too so I'm going to assume somebody saw how offended people were getting by the word and telegrammed it to the people in this thread. Also why is yours nicer than mine, it's shorter and doesn't tell you to kill yourself. I looked through r/drama which is apparently a hate pit for the word trap being used and came up with nothing but a bunch of posts stating that trap doesn't refer to transgender people.

The word was used in reference to effeminate cisgender male characters. Going back to Bridget, one of the poster children for the word, was not transgender, insisted on male pronouns, and made no attempt to conceal anything.

Any evidence would be great.
Last edited by Des-Bal on Tue May 21, 2019 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 5:01 pm

Torrocca wrote:
I love how you keep on contradicting yourself with what you're saying. It's really amazing, honestly.


I love how you don't really present arguments but seem to love everything I do. If you see a contradiction you can go ahead and point it out, let's rap about it.

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Torrocca
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Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 5:05 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:\

How about a single instance that just happened to me, since you and Proct seemed so cocksure about putting my honesty into doubt earlier?

-STRICKEN: I don't care-


Do you not even understand what "trap" means as a word? The whole fucking implication is that they're maliciously tricking people, Jesus fucking Christ.

Repeating this shit to yourself doesn't make it any less false.


Yeah I got one of those too so I'm going to assume some troll saw how offended people were getting by the word and telegrammed it to the people in this thread. I looked through r/drama which is apparently a hate pit for the word trap being used and came up with nothing but a bunch of posts stating that trap doesn't refer to transgender people.


I don't believe you. Content warning with regards to the comments of that thread, of course.

The word was used in reference to effeminate cisgender male characters. Going back to Bridget, one of the poster children for the word, was not transgender, insisted on male pronouns, and made no attempt to conceal anything.


Yeah, totally. That definitely, 100% explains that r/drama thread I linked to.

Any evidence would be great.


See above, chief.

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I love how you keep on contradicting yourself with what you're saying. It's really amazing, honestly.


I love how you don't really present arguments but seem to love everything I do. If you see a contradiction you can go ahead and point it out, let's rap about it.


Des-Bal wrote:The word trap is used to describe cisgender men and almost never with the implication they're maliciously tricking people.


Des-Bal wrote:Admiral Ackbar and the fact that what is expected is not what is discovered.


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 5:12 pm

Torrocca wrote:
I don't believe you. Content warning with regards to the comments of that thread, of course.

Yeah, totally. That definitely, 100% explains that r/drama thread I linked to.

See above, chief.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


Yeah I read that thread. They're not using trap as a hate term against transgender people and many of them are in fact very angrilly delineating between traps and transgender people.

No, that thread is best explained by you making other people's points.

I did.

There's no contradiction there? The word trap is about the viewer looking at a guy and not realize it because the subject of their attention was androgynous or feminine. It doesn't imply the subject was actively misleading anyone.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue May 21, 2019 5:16 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I don't believe you. Content warning with regards to the comments of that thread, of course.

Yeah, totally. That definitely, 100% explains that r/drama thread I linked to.

See above, chief.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


Yeah I read that thread. They're not using trap as a hate term against transgender people and many of them are in fact very angrilly delineating between traps and transgender people.

No, that thread is best explained by you making other people's points.

I did.

There's no contradiction there? The word trap is about the viewer looking at a guy and not realize it because the subject of their attention was androgynous or feminine. It doesn't imply the subject was actively misleading anyone.


What exactly do you think the word "trap" means? Not in reference to a person, but an actual, literal trap. What does it mean?
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 5:17 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I don't believe you. Content warning with regards to the comments of that thread, of course.

Yeah, totally. That definitely, 100% explains that r/drama thread I linked to.

See above, chief.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


Yeah I read that thread. They're not using trap as a hate term against transgender people and many of them are in fact very angrilly delineating between traps and transgender people.


"'There's no such thing as a girl with a dick'

what a time to be alive where this is considered a controversial statement"

"Traps are usually cute, I'm guessing this guy is a non-passing hon"

I fucking love how you're gonna ignore these two top comments that are quite clearly transphobic as fuck. 10/10

No, that thread is best explained by you making other people's points.


Nah, not at all.

There's no contradiction there? The word trap is about the viewer looking at a guy and not realize it because the subject of their attention was androgynous or feminine. It doesn't imply the subject was actively misleading anyone.


Again, the very fucking definition of the word "trap" implies trickery, which means the implication of calling an androgynous man (or a trans woman or whoever else) a trap is that they're being tricksters. That's the fucking contradiction, chief.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8228
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue May 21, 2019 5:21 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Drongonia wrote:There you go again, speaking on behalf of the majority. Personally, if someone was to ask me NOT to call them a trap, I would oblige them out of respect and common courtesy, not because the word is a slur.


The word's not a slur to you. Similarly to how "nigger" isn't a slur to white people or "faggot" isn't a slur to heterosexual people. Just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean jack fucking shit; trans people have literally been killed because of this shitty fucking notion that we're trying to "trap" people into having sex with somebody of a gender they wouldn't have sex with.

It's worth noting that many gay people refer to themselves as "faggots" and many black people refer to each other as "nigga."
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 19 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 5:22 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
The word's not a slur to you. Similarly to how "nigger" isn't a slur to white people or "faggot" isn't a slur to heterosexual people. Just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean jack fucking shit; trans people have literally been killed because of this shitty fucking notion that we're trying to "trap" people into having sex with somebody of a gender they wouldn't have sex with.

It's worth noting that many gay people refer to themselves as "faggots" and many black people refer to each other as "nigga."


Context is super important, as we see here.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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