Within the same country, obviously.
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by Punished UMN » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:56 pm
by Riviere Renard » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:35 pm
Natangia wrote:New haven america wrote:No, you dispute the notion.
Most Trans people I know are well aware that gender is psychological/neurological. (But considering you also think sex isn't real...)
If I may slide into the convo....
There are trans people who tend to think that gender is mostly a sociological phenomenon, but curiously assert their gender identity is inate. I would personally question the idea that most trans and lbgt/lbgt "allies" seriously consider biology in their arguments beyond "debunking" detractors in debates. Otherwise they seem to completely ignore science, leaning on identity as their primary method of choice for determining if someone's gender is actual or not.
I'm not saying that I don't view transgender people to be "fake" or that I don't think someone can be transgender, but that the methods for affirmation of it is incredibly inconsistent. But I do, disagree with the notion of "nonbinary" and "gender fluidity", those I don't consider humanly possible.
Riviere Renard wrote:I'm seeing some debate over non-binary people so I think I'll say something.
1: from all the testimony I've heard, the vast, vast majority of non-binary people do experience gender dysphoria. I know I do.
2: they do transition, in the aspect as a lot of trans people, from one gender to another, just the second gender being non-binary.
3: femininity and femaleness are two different things. Non-binary people recognize this. Being less feminine, but still feminine does not warrant an identity of demigirl, it is literally a combination of neutrality and femaleness. I am genderfluid, and I can testify the innate difference between genders that I have felt. I have dysphoria, and it manifests itself differently on different days. When I am female the dysphoria is different than being demifemale, though not necessarily less.
4: there is not yet enough research on non-binary people to make conclusions on their relationship to binary trans people. At the moment, all we have is testimony, just like way back in the 80s when judging trans people was based almost exclusively on testimony.
5: exuding enby people from the binary transgenders is stupid because almost all non-binary people face the same issues as trans people, including HRT, SRS, discrimination, etc.
6: on genderfluidity, on my female days (I'm AMAB, btw), I have dysphoria. On my male days, I still sometimes have dysphoria, but more importantly I feel comfortable expressing myself as male. Based on any trans related discussion I could get my hands on, my female days correlate with the tranfemme experience exactly. I am as female on my female days to the same extent by all measurable bases as a trans woman. I am not on my male or enby days.
Riviere Renard wrote:Des-Bal wrote:
You have no point of comparison to your own experiences, you cannot differentiate between being gender fluid and having mood swings or manic episodes or even just being a plain old neurotypical cisgender person.
Mood swings? Manic episodes? What are you talking about? None of that would even remotely explain being different genders at different times. I don't even know where to begin.
1: not mood swings: my mood remains pretty constant. I have the same level of happiness and whatnot on my female days as I do on my male ones. Gender is not a mood.
2: not manic episodes: I think if I were clinically insane the mental health professionals who have been studying me for more than a decade would have known. I have been diagnosed with OCD & ADHD, but never bipolar disorder or DID or anything else like that. This is absurd. This is bigoted, quite frankly.
3: I am not cisgender: when I am female, I cannot live as male comfortably. It gives me dysphoria. Being mispronouned gives me dysphoria, leg hair gives me dysphoria, a lot of things give me dysphoria. When I am female, presenting as female is the only thing that is comfortable. It is severe. And it is the opposite, usually, when I am male. When I am male, I am uncomfortable being called female. And when I'm enby, I am not comfortable being called either male or female.
4: "You have no point of comparison to your own experiences": I have been interacting with trans people on transgender spaces for about a year now, and everything I have ever heard about being a trans woman in the early stages of transition apply to me as I hear them. According to the DSM-5's method of diagnosis, I would have gender identity disorder (of course, I am not a medical professional). Since I was, like, 12, I knew I wasn't always a boy. When I came out this February, I felt free for the first time and began socially transitioning. Other than sometimes being not female, I am as trans as anyone else according to every method of analysis I have. And when I am male, I simply am not. So instead of calling me a pretender or an invader or mentally ill, why not explore gender fluidity logically?
Riviere Renard wrote:Des-Bal:
Person A says "I experience a thing". A scientist says "research shows their experience makes sense and should be accommodated for". You say "okay, I respect them and will fight for their rights, because they are valid".
Person B says "I experience the same thing, but in a slightly different way". A scientist says "we haven't had enough time or resources to conclude anything about their experience. Please hold on for more research." You say "well clearly their lying, or self deceiving, or invading other peoples spaces, or just plane not valid. We need to tell them their experiences don't exist."
Why? Why are you like this?
Also note: the "Guidelines for Psychological Practice With Transgender and Gender Nonconforming People" by the American Psychological Association mentionsGuideline 1. Psychologists understand that gender is a nonbinary construct that allows for a range of gender identities and that a person’s gender identity may not align with sex assigned at birth.
https://www.apa.org/practice/guidelines/transgender.pdf
An identity need not be proved without a doubt valid before accepting it. Were you anti-trans before 1995 when the oldest study on the trans brain from the "TERF argument rebuttal master doc" was published?
Riviere Renard wrote:Des-Bal wrote:Because despite you ceding otherwise being transgender is an actual thing with a solid base of scientific evidence despite it apparently being impossible to prove anything and it has serious implications. When it's viewed as the same thing as thinking you're a cartoon character every couple minutes it undercuts that legitimacy. If it's all just sex hipsterism then there's no cause to ask any questionsor extend any special protections. Regardless its immaterial. This is the same "well who are they hurting" shit that avoids the question.
"Because despite you ceding otherwise, being non-binary is an actual thing with a solid base of testimony from thousands of unrelated people from across the world and the backing of many professional physiologists, including the American Psychiatric Association*. When it's viewed as the same thing as thinking you're a cartoon character every couple minutes it undercuts that legitimacy."
*See my previous post.
...Here's the thing. Many people, including me, have described and documented dysphoria that matches the textbook definition of gender dysphoria to a tee, and yet many haven't
a connection to the opposite gender at all. These non-binary people have all the same evidence backing their claims as binary trans people, sans the brain studies. Why don't brain studies validate non-binary people? Because no one has tried. Name one study that shows that enby people are making it up. One.Des-Bal wrote:
Are they not the same? Because someone just signed off on them, you're beyond the Poe barrier. Nothing is so stupid it won't see at least some approval in trans circles.
You have no right to doubt otherkin or plurals, they are substantiated by the exact same amount of evidence as nonbinary people.
Really? Because non-binary and genderfluid people like myself have a history of documented, psychologist approved, DSM-5 adhering gender dysphoria* and otherkin do not.
*again, see my previous post.Des-Bal wrote:Evidence and it's absence says their identity is fake I'm saying "why is it evidence doesn't matter in this specific area?"
1: what "evidence... says their identity is fake"?
2: We do have evidence. Along side the support of psychologists, we also have testimony, which is evidence believe it or not. And yet you haven't even tried combating or disputing our testimony.Des-Bal wrote:
Because someone presented arguments against TERFs that double as arguments against gender as a social construct and genderfluidity as possible.
Genderfluidity is real, as shown by the fact that I am a different gender than I was the day this argument started. And psychologists believe me. Why? Because psychologists don't need brain scans to understand that gender is complicated, and instead use deductive reasoning, which has determined that there is no logical reason to believe the dysphoria I experience is false, deceptive, or inherently different from binary trans people.
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:25 am
Des-Bal wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:You're making it out as if being non-binary and wanting to be referred to as "they/them" where applicable, is a kin to being a hyper otherkin headmatee or something.
Are they not the same? Because someone just signed off on them, you're beyond the Poe barrier. Nothing is so stupid it won't see at least some approval in trans circles.
You have no right to doubt otherkin or plurals, they are substantiated by the exact same amount of evidence as nonbinary people.
by Des-Bal » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:53 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:How so? The way I see it, psychology and neurology heavily indicates that the tendency of gender can be found in the brain as not necessarily dependent on one's sex chromosomes. And that this is likely what causes gender dysphoria. It makes sense to me that if you could have someone who's psychological or neurological gender is female but whose chromosomal and genital sex is male, or vice versa, then you could have a person who is psychologically or neurologically neither gender. And that would be non-binary. I believe there is evidence (though I'm not sure) that removing a certain part of someone's cerebellum effectively removes all feelings of gender. So there are known neurological phenomena which give humans a non-binary disposition.
The same absolutely cannot be said for otherkin or plurals.
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
Desired perception: Logical, intellectual
Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
Mindset: Logos
by Des-Bal » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:44 am
Auzkhia wrote:Non-binary genders are like watching the sun rise, it is something that I observe everyday, and yet we have people who say "Well, how do we know the sun will rise tomorrow?" choking on their own radical skepticism and tricking their brains to play 3D chess when they can just simply go outside.
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
Desired perception: Logical, intellectual
Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
Mindset: Logos
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:20 pm
Des-Bal wrote:The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:How so? The way I see it, psychology and neurology heavily indicates that the tendency of gender can be found in the brain as not necessarily dependent on one's sex chromosomes. And that this is likely what causes gender dysphoria. It makes sense to me that if you could have someone who's psychological or neurological gender is female but whose chromosomal and genital sex is male, or vice versa, then you could have a person who is psychologically or neurologically neither gender. And that would be non-binary. I believe there is evidence (though I'm not sure) that removing a certain part of someone's cerebellum effectively removes all feelings of gender. So there are known neurological phenomena which give humans a non-binary disposition.
The same absolutely cannot be said for otherkin or plurals.
That makes sense as a framework for people who are simply nonbinary and it would be interesting to see if evidence supports it. If there's been a study on the effects of damage to the cerebellum on gender I haven't seen it. What the evidence really stands against is the idea that gender is social or that genderfluidity is possible because gender does appear to be hardwired and it appears to be fixed quite early.
by Neutraligon » Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:59 pm
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Des-Bal wrote:
That makes sense as a framework for people who are simply nonbinary and it would be interesting to see if evidence supports it. If there's been a study on the effects of damage to the cerebellum on gender I haven't seen it. What the evidence really stands against is the idea that gender is social or that genderfluidity is possible because gender does appear to be hardwired and it appears to be fixed quite early.
Gender isn't a social construct. Gender is a psychological or neurological construct. Gender roles are a social construct.
I don't know about genderfluidity.
by Suriyanakhon » Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:40 pm
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Des-Bal wrote:
That makes sense as a framework for people who are simply nonbinary and it would be interesting to see if evidence supports it. If there's been a study on the effects of damage to the cerebellum on gender I haven't seen it. What the evidence really stands against is the idea that gender is social or that genderfluidity is possible because gender does appear to be hardwired and it appears to be fixed quite early.
Gender isn't a social construct. Gender is a psychological or neurological construct. Gender roles are a social construct.
I don't know about genderfluidity.
by Philjia » Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:46 pm
Des-Bal wrote:Auzkhia wrote:Non-binary genders are like watching the sun rise, it is something that I observe everyday, and yet we have people who say "Well, how do we know the sun will rise tomorrow?" choking on their own radical skepticism and tricking their brains to play 3D chess when they can just simply go outside.
They're more like Morgellons or psychic powers, people claim very passionately to have them and doing anything less than accepting them as both fundamentally honest and unequivocally correct is treated as an act of hostility by the little groups that form around them.
"Ah but can your science explain rainbows" this is the basic trajectory of a conversation with a anybody who peddles bunk.
by Kowani » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:04 pm
by Punished UMN » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:30 pm
by Kowani » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:35 pm
by Nea Chora » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:39 pm
by Kowani » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:41 pm
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:37 pm
by Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:54 pm
according to legend, i once wrote:agender mars-colony automated decadent libertarian anti-statist degrowth
by An-Tanwir » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:05 pm
by Philjia » Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:20 am
by Auzkhia » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:55 am
by Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:51 pm
Philjia wrote:The high court has ruled that children in England under 16 cannot give informed consent on the use of puberty blockers.
The ruling is complete legal codswallop which hinges upon the insane argument that it is somehow necessary for the patient to know whether or not they want HRT and SRS at the time they begin to take the blockers.
according to legend, i once wrote:agender mars-colony automated decadent libertarian anti-statist degrowth
by Fahran » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:08 pm
Philjia wrote:The high court has ruled that children in England under 16 cannot give informed consent on the use of puberty blockers.
The ruling is complete legal codswallop which hinges upon the insane argument that it is somehow necessary for the patient to know whether or not they want HRT and SRS at the time they begin to take the blockers.
by Fahran » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:11 pm
Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:teens should be allowed to take puberty blockers if they want to, and shouldn't have to decide about srs at the same time.
by Nea Chora » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:20 pm
Fahran wrote:Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:teens should be allowed to take puberty blockers if they want to, and shouldn't have to decide about srs at the same time.
You do not just give minors drugs. That's tantamount to medical malpractice if you're not treating a medical condition or they cannot give informed consent for an elective procedure.
by Auzkhia » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:25 pm
Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:Philjia wrote:The high court has ruled that children in England under 16 cannot give informed consent on the use of puberty blockers.
The ruling is complete legal codswallop which hinges upon the insane argument that it is somehow necessary for the patient to know whether or not they want HRT and SRS at the time they begin to take the blockers.
teens should be allowed to take puberty blockers if they want to, and shouldn't have to decide about srs at the same time.
Nea Chora wrote:Fahran wrote:You do not just give minors drugs. That's tantamount to medical malpractice if you're not treating a medical condition or they cannot give informed consent for an elective procedure.
minors get (medical) drugs all the time? it's not medical malpractice to prescribe blockers to a teen with dysphoria.
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