TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Auzkhia]

It's based on this idea in 2nd wave radical feminism called separatism, in which women and men are separate species and do not share interests and thus it ties in with their rejection of relationships with men in order to advance their own version of a feminist agenda.

However, I think they are a perversion. Being a lesbian is about loving women, not hating men, though that is very very understandable. I just don't have the desire to date them, and that will still be true even if we smash the patriarchy. While not inherently trans exclusionary, it soon came to be in practice because of who they saw as men and women, and often sowed divisions between homosexual women and bisexual women. Sexuality and Gender do not need to be "pure".

Being heterosexual isn't inherently wrong, it's the patriarchal gender roles that are wrong. Your sexuality is yours, you cannot force it to change, it may evolve, but not because you made it so in the name of radical feminism or Jesus.

nice take, do you personally prefer 2nd or 3rd wave feminism and why? not a threadjack, I swear.

3rd I guess?

Though my feminist frameworks are basically a synthesis of Marxist Feminism, Sex positivity, intersectionality (which is from Black feminism) and Transfeminism. Radical feminism in general has some good points, but I find it too essentialist, especially cultural feminism.

Kate Bornstein is one of the first transfeminists and is a non-binary person too.

Judith Butler is non-binary as well! Trans and NB people definitely have had contributed to feminism and have been some of its most brilliant minds.

[New haven america]

It's based on this idea in 2nd wave radical feminism called separatism, in which women and men are separate species and do not share interests and thus it ties in with their rejection of relationships with men in order to advance their own version of a feminist agenda.

However, I think they are a perversion. Being a lesbian is about loving women, not hating men, though that is very very understandable. I just don't have the desire to date them, and that will still be true even if we smash the patriarchy. While not inherently trans exclusionary, it soon came to be in practice because of who they saw as men and women, and often sowed divisions between homosexual women and bisexual women. Sexuality and Gender do not need to be "pure".

Being heterosexual isn't inherently wrong, it's the patriarchal gender roles that are wrong. Your sexuality is yours, you cannot force it to change, it may evolve, but not because you made it so in the name of radical feminism or Jesus.

nice take, do you personally prefer 2nd or 3rd wave feminism and why? not a threadjack, I swear.

Neither, egalitarianism FTW.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

nice take, do you personally prefer 2nd or 3rd wave feminism and why? not a threadjack, I swear.

3rd I guess?

Though my feminist frameworks are basically a synthesis of Marxist Feminism, Sex positivity, intersectionality (which is from Black feminism) and Transfeminism. Radical feminism in general has some good points, but I find it too essentialist, especially cultural feminism.

Kate Bornstein is one of the first transfeminists and is a non-binary person too.

Judith Butler is non-binary as well! Trans and NB people definitely have had contributed to feminism and have been some of its most brilliant minds.

nice take, g

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

nice take, do you personally prefer 2nd or 3rd wave feminism and why? not a threadjack, I swear.

Neither, egalitarianism FTW.

same, but i do like the c o n c e p t of intersectionality, although in practice it's just suffering olympics and competing to be the most "woke".

[Suriyanakhon]

thread must be revived

thoughts on "political lesbianism" in terfs?

i think it's all one big self-hating facade that's somehow homophobic and, dare i say, h e t e r o p h o b i c , at the same time

As someone who's a lesbian, I can't understand being so hateful toward another sex or gender that you believe you ought to totally exclude them from your society (including children). I would be lying if I said that I didn't have misandrist thoughts before, considering most of the male figures in my life were abusive or neglectful and tormented me for being gender non-conforming. But I don't think this kind of activism is helpful, and is ironic considering that these women sometimes try to demand other bisexual or heterosexual women be gay.

[Fahran]

thread must be revived

thoughts on "political lesbianism" in terfs?

i think it's all one big self-hating facade that's somehow homophobic and, dare i say, h e t e r o p h o b i c , at the same time

I think it's the result of transforming your sexual orientation into a pillar of your ideology because of a rabid insistence that the personal must, by necessity, be political. I have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion that TERFs or political lesbians are self-hating since that doesn't seem to be even a concealed facet of their ideological frameworks. I'm uncertain about the term heterophobia, though it's probably applicable. Now, misandry and transphobia, on the other hand... those come built into the ideology.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

thread must be revived

thoughts on "political lesbianism" in terfs?

i think it's all one big self-hating facade that's somehow homophobic and, dare i say, h e t e r o p h o b i c , at the same time

As someone who's a lesbian, I can't understand being so hateful toward another sex or gender that you believe you ought to totally exclude them from your society (including children). I would be lying if I said that I didn't have misandrist thoughts before, considering most of the male figures in my life were abusive or neglectful and tormented me for being gender non-conforming. But I don't think this kind of activism is helpful, and is ironic considering that these women sometimes try to demand other bisexual or heterosexual women be gay.

yes, correct, and it's a very self-loathing and harmful ideology as well, seeing as how if followed to its natural conclusion (gender segregation or killing all men or forcing them all to be trans women for some reason, though we are talking about terfs), it would set the human race so far back in terms of progress and equality.

I'm sorry that men in your life hurt you, and I hope they got what they deserved and that you are getting better.

[Fahran]

For those of you who didn't know yet, transgender Black Marxists are planning to overthrow America. Or so Michele Bachmann says.

Honestly, even if they were, they would probably do a better job of governing

Doubtful. Marxists don't tend to excel at governing anything these days.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

thread must be revived

thoughts on "political lesbianism" in terfs?

i think it's all one big self-hating facade that's somehow homophobic and, dare i say, h e t e r o p h o b i c , at the same time

I think it's the result of transforming your sexual orientation into a pillar of your ideology because of a rabid insistence that the personal must, by necessity, be political. I have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion that TERFs or political lesbians are self-hating since that doesn't seem to be even a concealed facet of their ideological frameworks. I'm uncertain about the term heterophobia, though it's probably applicable. Now, misandry and transphobia, on the other hand... those come built into the ideology.

Self-hating because straight and bi women who are terfs would want to conform to "the ideal of being a lesbian" and just hurt themselves in the process. There's no way a straight woman could just start "being a lesbian" without some cognitive dissonance and discomfort, especially the more "authentic" she tries to be. Different form a lesbian having political opinions, just in case that's what you thought I meant, but you probably know what I'm talking about. Heterophobia is exactly what it sounds like and really only a problem on tumblr, the beloved hellsite. Misandry and transphobia are the hallmarks of terfs, right on.

[Suriyanakhon]

As someone who's a lesbian, I can't understand being so hateful toward another sex or gender that you believe you ought to totally exclude them from your society (including children). I would be lying if I said that I didn't have misandrist thoughts before, considering most of the male figures in my life were abusive or neglectful and tormented me for being gender non-conforming. But I don't think this kind of activism is helpful, and is ironic considering that these women sometimes try to demand other bisexual or heterosexual women be gay.

yes, correct, and it's a very self-loathing and harmful ideology as well, seeing as how if followed to its natural conclusion (gender segregation or killing all men or forcing them all to be trans women for some reason, though we are talking about terfs), it would set the human race so far back in terms of progress and equality.

I'm sorry that men in your life hurt you, and I hope they got what they deserved and that you are getting better.

Lesbian feminism mostly began at a time when science was rapidly expanding and the public imagination was filled with utopian visions of a future where it was the solution to all of our problems. Feminists being a progressive movement were particularly susceptible to this, for instance, the rabidly misandrist Valerie Solanas who thought that science would allow androcidal women to solve the issue of men. Most of the lesbian feminists probably just believed that we would reach a point where artificial insemination did not require men, so there would be no need to have them in their sex segregated commune.

Thank you. I'm sure that they will, but I've mostly forgiven them and moved on.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

Honestly, even if they were, they would probably do a better job of governing

Doubtful. Marxists don't tend to excel at governing anything these days.

true, marxism in the us will never come to fruition, especially not in t h i s e c o n o m y

[Fahran]

true, marxism in the us will never come to fruition, especially not in t h i s e c o n o m y

I'd be skeptical of the paradigm and its adherents under most socioeconomic conditions, but my own paradigm pretty much insists on that point.

[Fahran]

Self-hating because straight and bi women who are terfs would want to conform to "the ideal of being a lesbian" and just hurt themselves in the process.

I'm not certain that's necessarily self-loathing. At least no more so than a black person calling Candace Owens an "Uncle Tom" or a trans person calling Blaire White "truscum" is self-loathing. It's the inevitable result of setting ideological standards that members of a particular group will not meet. Women who aren't lesbians don't cease to be women. They're simply women who consort with the enemy. The entire ideology is bonkers, antisocial, and impractical, of course, but not really inconsistent or self-loathing.

There's no way a straight woman could just start "being a lesbian" without some cognitive dissonance and discomfort, especially the more "authentic" she tries to be.

A lot of political lesbians believe that their sexual orientation, and thus everyone else's, is a choice. That's not really surprising given that they have politicized what amounts to a personal characteristic influenced by a litany of factors - from genetics, to epigenetics, to socialization. If it's political, why can't you simply choose it as you'd choose to support a woman's right to choose or voting for the Green Party? It's kooky, but it's not really inconsistent with their ideology.

Different form a lesbian having political opinions, just in case that's what you thought I meant, but you probably know what I'm talking about. Heterophobia is exactly what it sounds like and really only a problem on tumblr, the beloved hellsite. Misandry and transphobia are the hallmarks of terfs, right on.

Yeah, I know about political lesbians. I wish I didn't.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

yes, correct, and it's a very self-loathing and harmful ideology as well, seeing as how if followed to its natural conclusion (gender segregation or killing all men or forcing them all to be trans women for some reason, though we are talking about terfs), it would set the human race so far back in terms of progress and equality.

I'm sorry that men in your life hurt you, and I hope they got what they deserved and that you are getting better.

Lesbian feminism mostly began at a time when science was rapidly expanding and the public imagination was filled with utopian visions of a future where it was the solution to all of our problems. Feminists being a progressive movement were particularly susceptible to this, for instance, the rabidly misandrist Valerie Solanas who thought that science would allow androcidal women to solve the issue of men. Most of the lesbian feminists probably just believed that we would reach a point where artificial insemination did not require men, so there would be no need to have them in their sex segregated commune.

I'm sure that they will, but I've mostly forgiven them and moved on.

happy for your progress. your facts about lesbian feminism are true, and make a lot of sense. the book "woman world" kind of describes the utopia you're speaking of, but by chance and nonviolent. it's also fiction, so that's nice. killing all men is dumB and genocide, regardless of why and how.

[Cekoviu]

I've managed to get myself into another trans debate on twitter (that seems to be about 10 transphobes vs 1 trans person i.e. me). I was wondering if anybody has any statistics on the occurrence of trans women doing creepy behaviour in women's changing rooms and toilets, such as installing cameras etc. I'm hoping that such incidents are as rare as you've all led me to believe.

Basically a non-occurrence.

Especially since the majority of transwomen are straight. (Or gay pre-transition if that's more helpful for you to understand)

current statistics seem to indicate that the majority of trans women are not straight (though i looked back through some older literature and it seems the sexual demographics of trans women have changed a lot, previously being much more likely to be straight). see here, placing only around 20% of trans people of either gender as heterosexual.

[Cekoviu]

thread must be revived

thoughts on "political lesbianism" in terfs?

i think it's all one big self-hating facade that's somehow homophobic and, dare i say, h e t e r o p h o b i c , at the same time

very understandable in motive but unfortunately essentially impossible given what we now know about the (non)plasticity of sexual orientation

[Novus America]

Basically a non-occurrence.

Especially since the majority of transwomen are straight. (Or gay pre-transition if that's more helpful for you to understand)

current statistics seem to indicate that the majority of trans women are not straight (though i looked back through some older literature and it seems the sexual demographics of trans women have changed a lot, previously being much more likely to be straight). see here, placing only around 20% of trans people of either gender as heterosexual.

Although as mentioned before, and as the study itself partially acknowledges, it was a web only survey sent out through various LGBT organizations. Thus it really has a major problem with selection bias, transgender people who are not internet savvy or who add not members of LGBT groups are not likely to be properly represented.

Presumably it is possible that transgender individuals who identify a straight, are less likely to be members of LGBT groups, and thus greatly underrepresented in the survey,
Transgender individuals who feel they are fully transitioned and accepted as their new gender, or are “stealth” as in not publicly identify as transgender, are probably less likely to be members of such groups, and might be reluctant to provide such information are probably not well covered by the survey.

So the survey is really a survey of LGBT activist group members, not transgender persons as a whole, as those not members of said groups, are unlikely to have answered the survey, which went out to such groups, not the general public.

Who would be very difficult to get a representative survey of, as there is no easy way to get a list of all transgender people to sample.

So that number could be quite far off in terms of what people not members of such groups identify as.

[Auzkhia]

current statistics seem to indicate that the majority of trans women are not straight (though i looked back through some older literature and it seems the sexual demographics of trans women have changed a lot, previously being much more likely to be straight). see here, placing only around 20% of trans people of either gender as heterosexual.

Although as mentioned before, and as the study itself partially acknowledges, it was a web only survey sent out through various LGBT organizations. Thus it really has a major problem with selection bias, transgender people who are not internet savvy or who add not members of LGBT groups are not likely to be properly represented.

Presumably it is possible that transgender individuals who identify a straight, are less likely to be members of LGBT groups, and thus greatly underrepresented in the survey,
Transgender individuals who feel they are fully transitioned and accepted as their new gender, or are “stealth” as in not publicly identify as transgender, are probably less likely to be members of such groups, and might be reluctant to provide such information are probably not well covered by the survey.

So the survey is really a survey of LGBT activist group members, not transgender persons as a whole, as those not members of said groups, are unlikely to have answered the survey, which went out to such groups, not the general public.

Who would be very difficult to get a representative survey of, as there is no easy way to get a list of all transgender people to sample.

So that number could be quite far off in terms of what people not members of such groups identify as.

It seems like both research data, albeit limited, and anecdotal experience seem to have enough credence that a plurality of trans people are queer, or bi/pan. Though straight trans people often have an easier path of fitting, though with some usual caveats. Like being a straight woman is not as advanced as being a lesbian. Trans lesbians are certainly practicing an advanced womanhood.

I considered myself queer even before I knew I was trans, but I probably wasn't as accurate since I thought I was into men, but in a gay way, as I identified as bisexual. Sexuality is complex, but cannot be forced.

[Novus America]

Although as mentioned before, and as the study itself partially acknowledges, it was a web only survey sent out through various LGBT organizations. Thus it really has a major problem with selection bias, transgender people who are not internet savvy or who add not members of LGBT groups are not likely to be properly represented.

Presumably it is possible that transgender individuals who identify a straight, are less likely to be members of LGBT groups, and thus greatly underrepresented in the survey,
Transgender individuals who feel they are fully transitioned and accepted as their new gender, or are “stealth” as in not publicly identify as transgender, are probably less likely to be members of such groups, and might be reluctant to provide such information are probably not well covered by the survey.

So the survey is really a survey of LGBT activist group members, not transgender persons as a whole, as those not members of said groups, are unlikely to have answered the survey, which went out to such groups, not the general public.

Who would be very difficult to get a representative survey of, as there is no easy way to get a list of all transgender people to sample.

So that number could be quite far off in terms of what people not members of such groups identify as.

It seems like both research data, albeit limited, and anecdotal experience seem to have enough credence that a plurality of trans people are queer, or bi/pan. Though straight trans people often have an easier path of fitting, though with some usual caveats. Like being a straight woman is not as advanced as being a lesbian. Trans lesbians are certainly practicing an advanced womanhood.

I considered myself queer even before I knew I was trans, but I probably wasn't as accurate since I thought I was into men, but in a gay way, as I identified as bisexual. Sexuality is complex, but cannot be forced.

Your anecdotal experience had the same bias though, in that you probably are not in as much contact with straight transgender individuals, given your circle is likely also based on the same web based LGBT activist groups.
When your anecdotal experience likely has the same bias, it is not independent supporting evidence.

Although it it certainly a possibility that a plurality do identify as as queer, bi/pan, all we know with some certainty is that it appears a plurality of members of such groups have such an identity.

Membership in such groups however will not well represent those not members of such groups.

Although I cannot say how undercounted they are, still I think we can make a reasonable assumption that straight transgender people, are not as likely to be members of the LGBTQ/queer activist community, and that those identifying as queer are probably more likely to be members of such groups (as being in such groups kind of identifies you as queer) and thus straight transgender individuals are undercounted and queer transgender persons over-counted.

An openly lesbian transgender person would likely hand no issue being identified as LGBTQ/queer, but a straight transgender woman who simply wants to be treated like a cis women, probably does not want to be openly a member of such a group, as it would effectively “out” them.

Of course we can generally only assume someone is straight by inference, while it is very common for a openly LGBQ person to put the fact that they are “queer”, “gay” etc. in their signature, biographical information, social media profiles and such, it is extreme uncommon for a straight person to but that they are straight in such things, outside maybe dating sites. And cis people also rarely put that they are cis.

So presumably straight transgender people, and those who want to be viewed only as cis (and I would assume there is significant overlap between the two) would probably be less likely to openly associate with the LGBTQ activist community, and to be members of such groups, as that behavior would likely be contrary to their identity as a straight person.

[Cekoviu]

current statistics seem to indicate that the majority of trans women are not straight (though i looked back through some older literature and it seems the sexual demographics of trans women have changed a lot, previously being much more likely to be straight). see here, placing only around 20% of trans people of either gender as heterosexual.

Although as mentioned before, and as the study itself partially acknowledges, it was a web only survey sent out through various LGBT organizations. Thus it really has a major problem with selection bias, transgender people who are not internet savvy or who add not members of LGBT groups are not likely to be properly represented.

Presumably it is possible that transgender individuals who identify a straight, are less likely to be members of LGBT groups, and thus greatly underrepresented in the survey,
Transgender individuals who feel they are fully transitioned and accepted as their new gender, or are “stealth” as in not publicly identify as transgender, are probably less likely to be members of such groups, and might be reluctant to provide such information are probably not well covered by the survey.

So the survey is really a survey of LGBT activist group members, not transgender persons as a whole, as those not members of said groups, are unlikely to have answered the survey, which went out to such groups, not the general public.

Who would be very difficult to get a representative survey of, as there is no easy way to get a list of all transgender people to sample.

So that number could be quite far off in terms of what people not members of such groups identify as.

this is a fair point, yes
i'd imagine the actual figure is probably somewhere around 40-50% straight, based on a combination of older medical studies and newer surveys

Although as mentioned before, and as the study itself partially acknowledges, it was a web only survey sent out through various LGBT organizations. Thus it really has a major problem with selection bias, transgender people who are not internet savvy or who add not members of LGBT groups are not likely to be properly represented.

Presumably it is possible that transgender individuals who identify a straight, are less likely to be members of LGBT groups, and thus greatly underrepresented in the survey,
Transgender individuals who feel they are fully transitioned and accepted as their new gender, or are “stealth” as in not publicly identify as transgender, are probably less likely to be members of such groups, and might be reluctant to provide such information are probably not well covered by the survey.

So the survey is really a survey of LGBT activist group members, not transgender persons as a whole, as those not members of said groups, are unlikely to have answered the survey, which went out to such groups, not the general public.

Who would be very difficult to get a representative survey of, as there is no easy way to get a list of all transgender people to sample.

So that number could be quite far off in terms of what people not members of such groups identify as.

It seems like both research data, albeit limited, and anecdotal experience seem to have enough credence that a plurality of trans people are queer, or bi/pan. Though straight trans people often have an easier path of fitting, though with some usual caveats. Like being a straight woman is not as advanced as being a lesbian. Trans lesbians are certainly practicing an advanced womanhood.

I considered myself queer even before I knew I was trans, but I probably wasn't as accurate since I thought I was into men, but in a gay way, as I identified as bisexual. Sexuality is complex, but cannot be forced.

wtf is """advanced womanhood"""

[Fahran]

wtf is """advanced womanhood"""

Same question. Also, how is womanhood herein defined?

[Auzkhia]

Although as mentioned before, and as the study itself partially acknowledges, it was a web only survey sent out through various LGBT organizations. Thus it really has a major problem with selection bias, transgender people who are not internet savvy or who add not members of LGBT groups are not likely to be properly represented.

Presumably it is possible that transgender individuals who identify a straight, are less likely to be members of LGBT groups, and thus greatly underrepresented in the survey,
Transgender individuals who feel they are fully transitioned and accepted as their new gender, or are “stealth” as in not publicly identify as transgender, are probably less likely to be members of such groups, and might be reluctant to provide such information are probably not well covered by the survey.

So the survey is really a survey of LGBT activist group members, not transgender persons as a whole, as those not members of said groups, are unlikely to have answered the survey, which went out to such groups, not the general public.

Who would be very difficult to get a representative survey of, as there is no easy way to get a list of all transgender people to sample.

So that number could be quite far off in terms of what people not members of such groups identify as.

this is a fair point, yes
i'd imagine the actual figure is probably somewhere around 40-50% straight, based on a combination of older medical studies and newer surveys

It seems like both research data, albeit limited, and anecdotal experience seem to have enough credence that a plurality of trans people are queer, or bi/pan. Though straight trans people often have an easier path of fitting, though with some usual caveats. Like being a straight woman is not as advanced as being a lesbian. Trans lesbians are certainly practicing an advanced womanhood.

I considered myself queer even before I knew I was trans, but I probably wasn't as accurate since I thought I was into men, but in a gay way, as I identified as bisexual. Sexuality is complex, but cannot be forced.

wtf is """advanced womanhood"""

I was remarking on how cis straight people seem to overthink trans lesbians.

[Punished UMN]

Although as mentioned before, and as the study itself partially acknowledges, it was a web only survey sent out through various LGBT organizations. Thus it really has a major problem with selection bias, transgender people who are not internet savvy or who add not members of LGBT groups are not likely to be properly represented.

Presumably it is possible that transgender individuals who identify a straight, are less likely to be members of LGBT groups, and thus greatly underrepresented in the survey,
Transgender individuals who feel they are fully transitioned and accepted as their new gender, or are “stealth” as in not publicly identify as transgender, are probably less likely to be members of such groups, and might be reluctant to provide such information are probably not well covered by the survey.

So the survey is really a survey of LGBT activist group members, not transgender persons as a whole, as those not members of said groups, are unlikely to have answered the survey, which went out to such groups, not the general public.

Who would be very difficult to get a representative survey of, as there is no easy way to get a list of all transgender people to sample.

So that number could be quite far off in terms of what people not members of such groups identify as.

this is a fair point, yes
i'd imagine the actual figure is probably somewhere around 40-50% straight, based on a combination of older medical studies and newer surveys

It seems like both research data, albeit limited, and anecdotal experience seem to have enough credence that a plurality of trans people are queer, or bi/pan. Though straight trans people often have an easier path of fitting, though with some usual caveats. Like being a straight woman is not as advanced as being a lesbian. Trans lesbians are certainly practicing an advanced womanhood.

I considered myself queer even before I knew I was trans, but I probably wasn't as accurate since I thought I was into men, but in a gay way, as I identified as bisexual. Sexuality is complex, but cannot be forced.

wtf is """advanced womanhood"""

Regular womanhood, but in India on January 1, 2020.

[New haven america]

Basically a non-occurrence.

Especially since the majority of transwomen are straight. (Or gay pre-transition if that's more helpful for you to understand)

current statistics seem to indicate that the majority of trans women are not straight (though i looked back through some older literature and it seems the sexual demographics of trans women have changed a lot, previously being much more likely to be straight). see here, placing only around 20% of trans people of either gender as heterosexual.

That was an online survey.

The online Trans community/demographic tends to lean much more towards homosexuality compared to the community IRL. (For example, if some rando went on Tumblr I wouldn't be surprised if they came away thinking 90% of the human population was LGBT)

[Novus America]

There is an inherent issue in the LGBTQ concept, in that LGBQ are mostly sexual orientation identifiers that are not straight, the T is not.
One of these things is not like the others.
Thus it is lumping 4 similar identifiers with one very different one.

Thus by its very nature LGBTQ might be seen as excluding straight people, and thus making it likely straight transgender people might not find the LGBTQ identity/culture/community/label represents them.