TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Cekoviu]

making evidence-based arguments (which do exist) for the legitimacy of most binary trans people's identities and proving that their acceptance (note, not the same as glorification) does not lead to negative societal outcomes? both of these things are demonstrable claims that can be backed up by current research and people who keep an open mind can be convinced by them, though i do not have hope for most extreme transphobes and TERFs.

that's a much better point than the ones vassenor has been making, thanks! my counterargument would be that socially transitioning can still be rather difficult and inconvenient to undo, even for little kids who dont need to medically transition, and increased rates of detransitioning among younger age groups due to this sort of influence would lead to the delegitimization of trans youth who are actually trans.

Which is basically saying that children should not be allowed to explore their preferences. Even if they are not trans, what exactly is the issue with exploring their identity?

there's an important distinction between exploring identity in private and socially transitioning without sufficient evidence of gender dysphoria. the former is good (or at least not harmful), the latter is bad.

[Neutraligon]

Which is basically saying that children should not be allowed to explore their preferences. Even if they are not trans, what exactly is the issue with exploring their identity?

there's an important distinction between exploring identity in private and socially transitioning without sufficient evidence of gender dysphoria. the former is good (or at least not harmful), the latter is bad.

why? part of exploring identity is figuring out who you are in public.

[Cekoviu]

there's an important distinction between exploring identity in private and socially transitioning without sufficient evidence of gender dysphoria. the former is good (or at least not harmful), the latter is bad.

why? part of exploring identity is figuring out who you are in public.

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

[Vassenor]

Which is basically saying that children should not be allowed to explore their preferences. Even if they are not trans, what exactly is the issue with exploring their identity?

there's an important distinction between exploring identity in private and socially transitioning without sufficient evidence of gender dysphoria. the former is good (or at least not harmful), the latter is bad.

So we're sacrificing kids at the altar of transmedicalist gatekeeping.

[Neutraligon]

why? part of exploring identity is figuring out who you are in public.

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

First I don't care how a child decides to dress, if they want to go in public in "boy clothes" that is up to them. Hell the concept of by and girl clothes except when it comes to things like bras since that tends to be medically necessary for women, is stupid beyond belief. Second what exactly is confusing about it. It is confusing to children is exactly the thing people used to try fear monger about when homosexuality is discussed in schools. More then that when young teens start exploring their sexuality it is expected that they may say things like I am homosexual/heterosexual and change because they are exploring. Why in the world would the same thing not hold for children exploring their identity? You are making the same excuse for trans individuals that people made for homosexual individuals.

[Cekoviu]

there's an important distinction between exploring identity in private and socially transitioning without sufficient evidence of gender dysphoria. the former is good (or at least not harmful), the latter is bad.

So we're sacrificing kids at the altar of transmedicalist gatekeeping.

i like how u decided to respond to this with a shitty one-liner instead of addressing my actual effort-laden response to ur gish galloping. good to see you aren't going to reevaluate your posting style anytime soon; guess there's no need for me to waste my time trying to reason with u

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

First I don't care how a child decides to dress, if they want to go in public in "boy clothes" that is up to them. Hell the concept of by and girl clothes except when it comes to things like bras since that tends to be medically necessary for women, is stupid beyond belief. Second what exactly is confusing about it. It is confusing to children is exactly the thing people used to try fear monger about when homosexuality is discussed in schools. More then that when young teens start exploring their sexuality it is expected that they may say things like I am homosexual/heterosexual and change because they are exploring. Why in the world would the same thing not hold for children exploring their identity? You are making the same excuse for trans individuals that people made for homosexual individuals.

1. ok, some clothes are pointlessly gendered, but im talking about more than *just* clothes and clothes are still considered societally gendered whether u like it or not so idk what the point here is
2. it's confusing to adults who are unfamiliar with transsexuality, to other children for whom gender is a more inherent and meaningful thing than sexuality, etc. homosexuality and transsexuality aren't really analogous here

[Luminesa]

why? part of exploring identity is figuring out who you are in public.

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

While I’m not sold on the idea of really small children having the autonomy to choose whether or not they are definitively trans, developmentally children ARE exploring themselves at this stage (though not in the same way that they are when they are teenagers). However, there’s a couple things to consider about this age group (8-year-olds).

In general, parents and children should be able to talk to each other about how music makes them feel. That’s a sign of trust and a sign that a child’s critical-thinking skills are coming along very well. However, any sudden changes to a child’s interests or behavior probably should be met with some questions, for parents of small children. “Why do you want to be a boy?” “What about this album made you want to be a boy?” “What do you think it means to be a boy?” These are good questions to ask. They not only allow the child to verbally express their feelings, but they allow an open dialogue, so the children can understand their choices and their parents’ decisions.

“Boy” and “girl” clothes have some odd labels for some things (why can’t a girl wear a polo shirt and why can’t a boy wear a cardigan?) However, if a child wants to wear certain clothes to school, I think that would also require a discussion with the teacher on what is or is not allowed. The teacher and parent can then also work together to make sure the child is comfortable. If any changes come to the child’s behavior, they can make sure together that the child’s environment remains steady and safe.

[Neutraligon]

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

While I’m not sold on the idea of really small children having the autonomy to choose whether or not they are definitively trans, developmentally children ARE exploring themselves at this stage (though not in the same way that they are when they are teenagers). However, there’s a couple things to consider about this age group (8-year-olds).

In general, parents and children should be able to talk to each other about how music makes them feel. That’s a sign of trust and a sign that a child’s critical-thinking skills are coming along very well. However, any sudden changes to a child’s interests or behavior probably should be met with some questions, for parents of small children. “Why do you want to be a boy?” “What about this album made you want to be a boy?” “What do you think it means to be a boy?” These are good questions to ask. They not only allow the child to verbally express their feelings, but they allow an open dialogue, so the children can understand their choices and their parents’ decisions.

“Boy” and “girl” clothes have some odd labels for some things (why can’t a girl wear a polo shirt and why can’t a boy wear a cardigan?) However, if a child wants to wear certain clothes to school, I think that would also require a discussion with the teacher on what is or is not allowed. The teacher and parent can then also work together to make sure the child is comfortable. If any changes come to the child’s behavior, they can make sure together that the child’s environment remains steady and safe.

Why is it the teacher's business what a child wears to school so long as it follows the dress code?

[Luminesa]

While I’m not sold on the idea of really small children having the autonomy to choose whether or not they are definitively trans, developmentally children ARE exploring themselves at this stage (though not in the same way that they are when they are teenagers). However, there’s a couple things to consider about this age group (8-year-olds).

In general, parents and children should be able to talk to each other about how music makes them feel. That’s a sign of trust and a sign that a child’s critical-thinking skills are coming along very well. However, any sudden changes to a child’s interests or behavior probably should be met with some questions, for parents of small children. “Why do you want to be a boy?” “What about this album made you want to be a boy?” “What do you think it means to be a boy?” These are good questions to ask. They not only allow the child to verbally express their feelings, but they allow an open dialogue, so the children can understand their choices and their parents’ decisions.

“Boy” and “girl” clothes have some odd labels for some things (why can’t a girl wear a polo shirt and why can’t a boy wear a cardigan?) However, if a child wants to wear certain clothes to school, I think that would also require a discussion with the teacher on what is or is not allowed. The teacher and parent can then also work together to make sure the child is comfortable. If any changes come to the child’s behavior, they can make sure together that the child’s environment remains steady and safe.

Why is it the teacher's business what a child wears to school so long as it follows the dress code?

It’s the teacher’s business because the teacher has to keep the child safe and sees them five days a week, eight hours a day. Ideally, parents and teachers should communicate regularly about how to make the child comfortable in school. In the case of a child wanting to wear particular clothes to school (a boy wearing a skirt or a girl wearing flannel or something), the parents and teacher should communicate, especially for a small child. They should discuss how the child is doing, and what they can do to help them thrive both academically and socially. If the child complains of being bullied, then all parties involved need to discuss ways to tackle the problem.

[West Leas Oros 2]

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

While I’m not sold on the idea of really small children having the autonomy to choose whether or not they are definitively trans, developmentally children ARE exploring themselves at this stage (though not in the same way that they are when they are teenagers). However, there’s a couple things to consider about this age group (8-year-olds).

In general, parents and children should be able to talk to each other about how music makes them feel. That’s a sign of trust and a sign that a child’s critical-thinking skills are coming along very well. However, any sudden changes to a child’s interests or behavior probably should be met with some questions, for parents of small children. “Why do you want to be a boy?” “What about this album made you want to be a boy?” “What do you think it means to be a boy?” These are good questions to ask. They not only allow the child to verbally express their feelings, but they allow an open dialogue, so the children can understand their choices and their parents’ decisions.

“Boy” and “girl” clothes have some odd labels for some things (why can’t a girl wear a polo shirt and why can’t a boy wear a cardigan?) However, if a child wants to wear certain clothes to school, I think that would also require a discussion with the teacher on what is or is not allowed. The teacher and parent can then also work together to make sure the child is comfortable. If any changes come to the child’s behavior, they can make sure together that the child’s environment remains steady and safe.

Call this a strange proposition, but what if we just assumed children weren't gendered until they reach an age where they can understand it themselves? At the very least, some healthy skepticism would certainly benefit children trying to grasp gender identity and the like.

[Luminesa]

While I’m not sold on the idea of really small children having the autonomy to choose whether or not they are definitively trans, developmentally children ARE exploring themselves at this stage (though not in the same way that they are when they are teenagers). However, there’s a couple things to consider about this age group (8-year-olds).

In general, parents and children should be able to talk to each other about how music makes them feel. That’s a sign of trust and a sign that a child’s critical-thinking skills are coming along very well. However, any sudden changes to a child’s interests or behavior probably should be met with some questions, for parents of small children. “Why do you want to be a boy?” “What about this album made you want to be a boy?” “What do you think it means to be a boy?” These are good questions to ask. They not only allow the child to verbally express their feelings, but they allow an open dialogue, so the children can understand their choices and their parents’ decisions.

“Boy” and “girl” clothes have some odd labels for some things (why can’t a girl wear a polo shirt and why can’t a boy wear a cardigan?) However, if a child wants to wear certain clothes to school, I think that would also require a discussion with the teacher on what is or is not allowed. The teacher and parent can then also work together to make sure the child is comfortable. If any changes come to the child’s behavior, they can make sure together that the child’s environment remains steady and safe.

Call this a strange proposition, but what if we just assumed children weren't gendered until they reach an age where they can understand it themselves? At the very least, some healthy skepticism would certainly benefit children trying to grasp gender identity and the like.

Children start to understand the concept of gender, or at least its basics, when they are about 3 or 4. The degree to which they understand fluctuates until they reach their teen years. It’s definitely a spectrum of understanding, as are most things related to child psychology. That said, the balance is that children have to have some solid foundation when they are little. They have to have some sort of guidance as to who they are. We don’t expect children to learn algebra all on their own, we have to give them formulas and show them how they work. Children don’t tend to learn to read all alone (though this is not set in stone, HOWEVER children do learn better with parental support and this is proven by statistics). They shouldn’t have to search their identities alone without any guidance or anchors.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Call this a strange proposition, but what if we just assumed children weren't gendered until they reach an age where they can understand it themselves? At the very least, some healthy skepticism would certainly benefit children trying to grasp gender identity and the like.

Children start to understand the concept of gender, or at least its basics, when they are about 3 or 4. The degree to which they understand fluctuates until they reach their teen years. It’s definitely a spectrum of understanding, as are most things related to child psychology. That said, the balance is that children have to have some solid foundation when they are little. They have to have some sort of guidance as to who they are. We don’t expect children to learn algebra all on their own, we have to give them formulas and show them how they work. Children don’t tend to learn to read all alone (though this is not set in stone, HOWEVER children do learn better with parental support and this is proven by statistics). They shouldn’t have to search their identities alone without any guidance or anchors.

Well I can get behind guidance, but outright saying "my four-year old is Trans" seems... silly. Ultimately, children may have basic understandings, but we shouldn't act as though we can just tell them "you're right" without asking them "why?". You're a boy? Why? You're a girl? Why? You don't think you fit into either category? Why? When teaching about gender, I always applied the principle of "why". Even for myself. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I would say that if we are to guide children, we should do it in such a way that promotes skepticism and flexible thinking.

[Luminesa]

Children start to understand the concept of gender, or at least its basics, when they are about 3 or 4. The degree to which they understand fluctuates until they reach their teen years. It’s definitely a spectrum of understanding, as are most things related to child psychology. That said, the balance is that children have to have some solid foundation when they are little. They have to have some sort of guidance as to who they are. We don’t expect children to learn algebra all on their own, we have to give them formulas and show them how they work. Children don’t tend to learn to read all alone (though this is not set in stone, HOWEVER children do learn better with parental support and this is proven by statistics). They shouldn’t have to search their identities alone without any guidance or anchors.

Well I can get behind guidance, but outright saying "my four-year old is Trans" seems... silly. Ultimately, children may have basic understandings, but we shouldn't act as though we can just tell them "you're right" without asking them "why?". You're a boy? Why? You're a girl? Why? You don't think you fit into either category? Why? When teaching about gender, I always applied the principle of "why". Even for myself. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I would say that if we are to guide children, we should do it in such a way that promotes skepticism and flexible thinking.

Oh I agree, that’s what I was saying, children and parents should be able to discuss things like gender, but I think it’s kind of silly to accept at face-value when a 4-year-old says they are trans. Plus they need to learn how to converse about complicated topics, even if it is at a very basic level. Developmentally, however, the reality is that pre-schoolers will play with identity like they will play at different centers at school. Children both male and female love dress-up. But for a small child you have to give more foundations as well. What comes next depends from child-to-child.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Well I can get behind guidance, but outright saying "my four-year old is Trans" seems... silly. Ultimately, children may have basic understandings, but we shouldn't act as though we can just tell them "you're right" without asking them "why?". You're a boy? Why? You're a girl? Why? You don't think you fit into either category? Why? When teaching about gender, I always applied the principle of "why". Even for myself. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I would say that if we are to guide children, we should do it in such a way that promotes skepticism and flexible thinking.

Oh I agree, that’s what I was saying, children and parents should be able to discuss things like gender, but I think it’s kind of silly to accept at face-value when a 4-year-old says they are trans. Plus they need to learn how to converse about complicated topics, even if it is at a very basic level. Developmentally, however, the reality is that pre-schoolers will play with identity like they will play at different centers at school. Children both male and female love dress-up. But for a small child you have to give more foundations as well. What comes next depends from child-to-child.

Ah, I see. I suppose I didn't quite understand your thought process. I myself have actually been thinking about who I am, and gender identity isn't off the table. I suppose one day I realized I never actually thought about it. I only assumed because I never thought to think about it. I'm just thinking that I don't want to leave children assuming based on what parents, peers, or anyone else tell them. Or don't tell them, for that matter.

[New haven america]

why? part of exploring identity is figuring out who you are in public.

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

There was a girl in one of my elementary schools who identifies as a vampire, and another who believed she was a cat. Yeah, kids do things just cause they feel like it.

Also, I like you try to ignore the fact that she could be a tomboy or more masculine presenting girl, cause those are things that exist.

[West Leas Oros 2]

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

There was a girl in one of my elementary schools who identifies as a vampire, and another who believed she was a cat. Yeah, kids do things just cause they feel like it.

Also, I like you try to ignore the fact that she could be a tomboy or more masculine presenting girls, those are things that exist.

One day, maybe we will make cat people and vampires a reality.

[New haven america]

There was a girl in one of my elementary schools who identifies as a vampire, and another who believed she was a cat. Yeah, kids do things just cause they feel like it.

Also, I like you try to ignore the fact that she could be a tomboy or more masculine presenting girls, those are things that exist.

One day, maybe we will make cat people and vampires a reality.

Here's hoping.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I should clarify in the light of the above debate that my position is that institutions adopt a position of compassionate neutrality. We can dial back on idealised presentations that might make the idea of transness seem fun or cool and lead to children who would not normally have "explored" such ideas problematising their identities and being set down an often painful path they might otherwise not have gone on. Schools actively advocating "the diversity agenda", bringing in drag queens to talk to kids, reorienting lessons and supporting projects around LGBT history month or whatever. However, we should avoid the historical mistakes of Section 28-style legislation whereby teachers and other public services felt unable to signpost those who actively requested information or came to them for help; this was covered by an overly broad definition of "forbidding promotion". Similarly teachers felt that they sometimes could not deal with abuse and bullying because telling kids what they were doing was wrong might amount to indirectly arguing for the identity being okay.

Often legislation brought by conservatives on such matters sounds reasonable when skimmed but there are big problems in the detail. I think we have "overadjusted" in our approach past the point of reasonableness, but in minimising the mistakes of the present we should be very aware of the danger of repeating the mistakes of the past.

[South Odreria 2]

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

Also, I like you try to ignore the fact that she could be a tomboy or more masculine presenting girl, cause those are things that exist.

What gives you the impression she ignored that

[Cekoviu]

say we have a child who's about to enter second grade at a new school, she listens to this album, notices that transness seems cool based on it, and says "mommy, i want to be a boy." so she gets boy clothes and goes to school and introduces herself as a boy. after a few months of this she realizes it doesn't feel right at all and wants to go back to being a girl. how does she proceed? she has to reintroduce herself as a girl to the other students, her parents have to explain to the teacher what the deal is in a likely awkward conversation that may confuse the teacher, and parents in that class might look at it and say "see?! this is why being trans is just a phase and you'll get over it!" to their child if one comes out as actually trans. this potentially causes a lot of harm to trans children and is just generally a headache for everyone involved.

on the other hand, if this girl dresses as a boy at home or on a vacation for a while to try it out and quickly decides she doesnt like it, this entire headache is removed. she realizes she's cis, parents return, sell, or donate any boy's clothes purchased. no harm, no foul.

There was a girl in one of my elementary schools who identifies as a vampire, and another who believed she was a cat. Yeah, kids do things just cause they feel like it.

Also, I like you try to ignore the fact that she could be a tomboy or more masculine presenting girl, cause those are things that exist.

the clear underlying assumption behind this specific scenario is that it's a cis girl who isn't a tomboy and who just wants to hop on the bandwagon for the attention and praise received by trans people. that doesnt mean tomboys dont exist ever.

[The New California Republic]

An interesting article:

US trans rights: The teen who sued his school, and won, over bathroom use.

[Hediacrana]

An interesting article:

US trans rights: The teen who sued his school, and won, over bathroom use.

A very courageous man. Thanks for sharing this!

[Saciu]

I've managed to get myself into another trans debate on twitter (that seems to be about 10 transphobes vs 1 trans person i.e. me). I was wondering if anybody has any statistics on the occurrence of trans women doing creepy behaviour in women's changing rooms and toilets, such as installing cameras etc. I'm hoping that such incidents are as rare as you've all led me to believe.

[Vassenor]

I've managed to get myself into another trans debate on twitter (that seems to be about 10 transphobes vs 1 trans person i.e. me). I was wondering if anybody has any statistics on the occurrence of trans women doing creepy behaviour in women's changing rooms and toilets, such as installing cameras etc. I'm hoping that such incidents are as rare as you've all led me to believe.

Given that there's maybe one or two examples that they keep recycling over and over as proof I'd say it's pretty fucking rare.

[Cekoviu]

I've managed to get myself into another trans debate on twitter (that seems to be about 10 transphobes vs 1 trans person i.e. me). I was wondering if anybody has any statistics on the occurrence of trans women doing creepy behaviour in women's changing rooms and toilets, such as installing cameras etc. I'm hoping that such incidents are as rare as you've all led me to believe.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 2230.12507
this journal article contains a number of references to different studies that u may find useful in discussing this issue