TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Cekoviu]

not sure how i feel about this. i think younger kids might see this and think "oh, those ppl are getting praise and support for being trans so it must be a cool trend!" that's how u end up getting detransitioners, which hurts both the kids and trans people whose cause is delegitimized by non-trans people transitioning and then detransitioning. i havent listened to the album so it probably depends on exactly how they approached it, but it'd definitely require a lot of finesse

So how often do those things actually happen? Since nine times out of ten detransitioning is the result of abuse rather than desistance.

im saying if we take this path it could start to happen more frequently for reasons other than abuse or denial. i wouldnt expect u to grasp that (or any) nuance tho

[Vassenor]

So how often do those things actually happen? Since nine times out of ten detransitioning is the result of abuse rather than desistance.

im saying if we take this path it could start to happen more frequently for reasons other than abuse or denial. i wouldnt expect u to grasp that (or any) nuance tho

So we should stop affirming trans kids and teaching other kids that they exist and that's ok because of a could or a might.

Because I remember being socialised as a kid to treat trans people like a punchline. And that's not a good thing.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Honestly there's something to the argument that bringing up trans issues with young kids may confuse some to them and make them question their gender at a time when their identity isn't fully formed. How much are we leaping to affirm and just counter negative images of trans people rather than concretising borderline cases into identifying and confusing a small portion of kids who wouldn't even have thought of it into having some gender trouble?

It's not a binary choice between "there are no ways this could possibly go wrong" or a conviction that kids are going through the T agenda educational assembly lines and all coming out crossdressed and saying "it's too late mother, I have seen everything".

I'm a bit of a skeptic, we don't have data because we're taking new approaches, the agenda is maybe being steered by a lobby who think of things in terms of what they think would have been nice for them rather than the bigger picture. I think we need to be cautious with putting a label on kids too early and making it into a whole thing, and that the less overall risky path is not to tell kids about it unless there's an active question or if there's an actual trans kid in their class and problems around bullying, and just keep it as basic and brief as possible. There needs to be a subtle approach that's aware of potential risks we don't have much understanding of rather than just being all about rainbows, diversity and everything will just definitely work out because we're trying to be nice and get rid of pwejudice.

But I'm just a self-hating sellout and this is none of my business.

[Hediacrana]

So how often do those things actually happen? Since nine times out of ten detransitioning is the result of abuse rather than desistance.

im saying if we take this path it could start to happen more frequently for reasons other than abuse or denial. i wouldnt expect u to grasp that (or any) nuance tho

Choosing to read 'I think you're wrong here, and this is why' as 'I refuse to see any nuance,' is itself not really a display of understanding nuance.

So we should stop affirming trans kids and teaching other kids that they exist and that's ok because of a could or a might.

Because I remember being socialised as a kid to treat trans people like a punchline. And that's not a good thing.

Precisely.

[Luminesa]

im saying if we take this path it could start to happen more frequently for reasons other than abuse or denial. i wouldnt expect u to grasp that (or any) nuance tho

So we should stop affirming trans kids and teaching other kids that they exist and that's ok because of a could or a might.

Because I remember being socialised as a kid to treat trans people like a punchline. And that's not a good thing.

I don’t think that’s what Ceko is going for at all, but as usual going for the most pathos response instead of actually considering what they said is the end result.

No child should be bullied in school. No child should go to school being scared of their classmates and teachers. No kids should feel like “others” with their friends. You can play happy music in a classroom for children or sell it to them, but if they still go to school and they’re getting beat or humiliated by classmates then you’ve got a different fundamental issue.

No, I wasn’t bullied because I was trans, I wasn’t, but I was most certainly bullied in middle school. Playing music in class to lift my spirits did help a little, but it did not hit the fundamental problem, and that was that when I needed help against bullies my teachers did very little.

[Cekoviu]

im saying if we take this path it could start to happen more frequently for reasons other than abuse or denial. i wouldnt expect u to grasp that (or any) nuance tho

Choosing to read 'I think you're wrong here, and this is why' as 'I refuse to see any nuance,' is itself not really a display of understanding nuance.

except that vassenor thinks i'm wrong because of her failure to understand my point

[Vassenor]

Choosing to read 'I think you're wrong here, and this is why' as 'I refuse to see any nuance,' is itself not really a display of understanding nuance.

except that vassenor thinks i'm wrong because of her failure to understand my point

So what is your point? Because it sounds a hell of a lot like a modern Section 28.

[Cekoviu]

except that vassenor thinks i'm wrong because of her failure to understand my point

So what is your point? Because it sounds a hell of a lot like a modern Section 28.

i just explained it to u

So how often do those things actually happen? Since nine times out of ten detransitioning is the result of abuse rather than desistance.

im saying if we take this path [of celebrating transgenderism in media provided to young children] it [detranstioning] could start to happen more frequently for reasons other than abuse or denial. i wouldnt expect u to grasp that (or any) nuance tho

are the words too big? i don't know what else u want from me, u clearly already read this post

[Vassenor]

So what is your point? Because it sounds a hell of a lot like a modern Section 28.

i just explained it to u

im saying if we take this path [of celebrating transgenderism in media provided to young children] it [detranstioning] could start to happen more frequently for reasons other than abuse or denial. i wouldnt expect u to grasp that (or any) nuance tho

are the words too big? i don't know what else u want from me, u clearly already read this post

And you base this on what evidence?

And yes, that is just a modern Section 28.

[Cekoviu]

i just explained it to u

are the words too big? i don't know what else u want from me, u clearly already read this post

And you base this on what evidence?

1) kids are impressionable and enjoy following trends (this is common knowledge, it would be absurd to demand a source for this)
2) the idealization of, minimization of, and praise for people with various mental illnesses cause an increase in identification with that mental illness (if one takes a look through social media sites, it's clear that people identify with illnesses that do not afflict them to appear unique and get sympathy, depression and OCD being most common. unfortunately i can't seem to find any research on this, so i can only offer anecdotal experiences, but i'm certain you have to have noticed this.) if we glorify gender dysphoria similarly, i don't see how people wouldn't start to identify with it to be on the receiving end of that when we have seen it with other mental illnesses.

And yes, that is just a modern Section 28.

Yes.

[Solomons Land]

i just explained it to u

are the words too big? i don't know what else u want from me, u clearly already read this post

And you base this on what evidence?

And yes, that is just a modern Section 28.

I want to understand this conversation, but it looks like it has been going on for quite awhile. Could someone repost the OP of the conversation?

[Crockerland]

not sure how i feel about this. i think younger kids might see this and think "oh, those ppl are getting praise and support for being trans so it must be a cool trend!" that's how u end up getting detransitioners, which hurts both the kids and trans people whose cause is delegitimized by non-trans people transitioning and then detransitioning. i havent listened to the album so it probably depends on exactly how they approached it, but it'd definitely require a lot of finesse

So how often do those things actually happen? Since nine times out of ten detransitioning is the result of abuse rather than desistance.

Uhmmm do you have a citation for this claim?

[Cekoviu]

And you base this on what evidence?

And yes, that is just a modern Section 28.

I want to understand this conversation, but it looks like it has been going on for quite awhile. Could someone repost the OP of the conversation?

read down from here

[Vassenor]

And you base this on what evidence?

1) kids are impressionable and enjoy following trends (this is common knowledge, it would be absurd to demand a source for this)
2) the idealization of, minimization of, and praise for people with various mental illnesses cause an increase in identification with that mental illness (if one takes a look through social media sites, it's clear that people identify with illnesses that do not afflict them to appear unique and get sympathy, depression and OCD being most common. unfortunately i can't seem to find any research on this, so i can only offer anecdotal experiences, but i'm certain you have to have noticed this.) if we glorify gender dysphoria similarly, i don't see how people wouldn't start to identify with it to be on the receiving end of that when we have seen it with other mental illnesses.

And yes, that is just a modern Section 28.

Yes.

See here's the thing. You're just regurgitating TERF rhetoric and going on about how it's a good thing. And you're doing it based on no actual evidence, just anecdotes that totes for real happened.

And yes, this is just a rehash of mandating that schools "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship". It's disgusting.

[Cekoviu]

1) kids are impressionable and enjoy following trends (this is common knowledge, it would be absurd to demand a source for this)
2) the idealization of, minimization of, and praise for people with various mental illnesses cause an increase in identification with that mental illness (if one takes a look through social media sites, it's clear that people identify with illnesses that do not afflict them to appear unique and get sympathy, depression and OCD being most common. unfortunately i can't seem to find any research on this, so i can only offer anecdotal experiences, but i'm certain you have to have noticed this.) if we glorify gender dysphoria similarly, i don't see how people wouldn't start to identify with it to be on the receiving end of that when we have seen it with other mental illnesses.

Yes.

See here's the thing. You're just regurgitating TERF rhetoric and going on about how it's a good thing. And you're doing it based on no actual evidence, just anecdotes that totes for real happened.

"TERFs think kittens r cute so if u say kittens are cute, ur regurgitating TERF rhetoric!!!!!!11"
TERFs aren't wrong about literally everything (in fact, ur average TERF is likely to be right about most things unrelated to issues specifically related to trans ppl ime). i dont know why u think it's a magic gotcha to say "waaa ur making the same argument for this one specific situation as TERFs" (which isn't even true btw, since TERFs would likely be interested in discrediting the trans movement with this shit)

And yes, this is just a rehash of mandating that schools "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship". It's disgusting.

im not mandating anybody to do anything lol, im just criticizing one particular artist's choice to release a particular album in the way they did and arguing that in general the approach that artist used is problematic. i don't know why u think that has to mean i want to ban anything. you're literally doing the same thing rn as right-wingers who freak out about how leftists want to take away their freeze peach when they get criticized on twitter

[Vassenor]

See here's the thing. You're just regurgitating TERF rhetoric and going on about how it's a good thing. And you're doing it based on no actual evidence, just anecdotes that totes for real happened.

"TERFs think kittens r cute so if u say kittens are cute, ur regurgitating TERF rhetoric!!!!!!11"
TERFs aren't wrong about literally everything (in fact, ur average TERF is likely to be right about most things unrelated to issues specifically related to trans ppl ime). i dont know why u think it's a magic gotcha to say "waaa ur making the same argument for this one specific situation as TERFs" (which isn't even true btw, since TERFs would likely be interested in discrediting the trans movement with this shit)

And yes, this is just a rehash of mandating that schools "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship". It's disgusting.

im not mandating anybody to do anything lol, im just criticizing one particular artist's choice to release a particular album in the way they did and arguing that in general the approach that artist used is problematic. i don't know why u think that has to mean i want to ban anything. you're literally doing the same thing rn as right-wingers who freak out about how leftists want to take away their freeze peach when they get criticized on twitter

You're literally saying we should repress trans kids because some might possibly in some alternative universe pretend to be trans to get attention and then regret it later. You have provided no evidence to back this claim up, just repeatedly asserted that it will totally happen. This is the same logic the TERFs use when dealing with trans kids.

[Cekoviu]

"TERFs think kittens r cute so if u say kittens are cute, ur regurgitating TERF rhetoric!!!!!!11"
TERFs aren't wrong about literally everything (in fact, ur average TERF is likely to be right about most things unrelated to issues specifically related to trans ppl ime). i dont know why u think it's a magic gotcha to say "waaa ur making the same argument for this one specific situation as TERFs" (which isn't even true btw, since TERFs would likely be interested in discrediting the trans movement with this shit)

im not mandating anybody to do anything lol, im just criticizing one particular artist's choice to release a particular album in the way they did and arguing that in general the approach that artist used is problematic. i don't know why u think that has to mean i want to ban anything. you're literally doing the same thing rn as right-wingers who freak out about how leftists want to take away their freeze peach when they get criticized on twitter

You're literally saying we should repress trans kids

where did i say this. give me a quote from one of my posts where it says or implies trans kids should be repressed.

because some might possibly in some alternative universe pretend to be trans to get attention and then regret it later. You have provided no evidence to back this claim up, just repeatedly asserted that it will totally happen. This is the same logic the TERFs use when dealing with trans kids.

you yourself indirectly admitted this happens. what are the other 1/10 of detransitioners who aren't doing so due to abuse? i know a girl who this exact thing happened to (thought she was trans out of confusion from the way popular media depicts transgenderism, then realized she wasn't and regretted it). that doesn't mean it happens all the goddamn time, but if it has happened once, then it's not something that only occurs in an "alternative universe."

have you ever tried to do your own research on gender dysphoria and transgenderism in children? have you ever tried to scour journal databases a paper outlining the relationship between portrayals of mental illnesses in media and self-identification as having that mental illness among minors? i have and i realize how fruitless of a task this is; the research landscape is completely barren because of how new an issue this is. you're asking for data on a subject that has next to no scientific literature written about it. i can't give you the massive study concluding that with a p value of 0.000001 and an R² of 0.9999, exposure to media that glorifies transgenderism is correlated with false diagnoses of gender dysphoria or false identification of transgenderism. there's no paper with a sample size of thousands upon thousands of trans kids who were raised in a lab with tightly controlled media access. you want something that literally can't exist, and even if it did, i don't think you would accept it; you'd find some way around it because tRaNs rEpReSeNtAtIoN gOoD. so all i can ask you to do is open your eyes, exercise some freaking independence for once, and work to understand what is actually a very complex issue with a more intricate answer than the one you're giving (though it may not even be fair to say you're giving an answer at all, since i haven't seen you state your own opinion, only screech at me for having the wrong one)

[Cordel One]

"TERFs think kittens r cute so if u say kittens are cute, ur regurgitating TERF rhetoric!!!!!!11"
TERFs aren't wrong about literally everything (in fact, ur average TERF is likely to be right about most things unrelated to issues specifically related to trans ppl ime). i dont know why u think it's a magic gotcha to say "waaa ur making the same argument for this one specific situation as TERFs" (which isn't even true btw, since TERFs would likely be interested in discrediting the trans movement with this shit)

im not mandating anybody to do anything lol, im just criticizing one particular artist's choice to release a particular album in the way they did and arguing that in general the approach that artist used is problematic. i don't know why u think that has to mean i want to ban anything. you're literally doing the same thing rn as right-wingers who freak out about how leftists want to take away their freeze peach when they get criticized on twitter

You're literally saying we should repress trans kids because some might possibly in some alternative universe pretend to be trans to get attention and then regret it later. You have provided no evidence to back this claim up, just repeatedly asserted that it will totally happen. This is the same logic the TERFs use when dealing with trans kids.

I don't get why trans people bother so many people. Every trans person I know put a lot of thought into it before transitioning and they're all much happier because of it. If someone doesn't support that, they should get out of the way because it's none of their business.

[Cekoviu]

You're literally saying we should repress trans kids because some might possibly in some alternative universe pretend to be trans to get attention and then regret it later. You have provided no evidence to back this claim up, just repeatedly asserted that it will totally happen. This is the same logic the TERFs use when dealing with trans kids.

I don't get why trans people bother so many people. Every trans person I know put a lot of thought into it before transitioning and they're all much happier because of it. If someone doesn't support that, they should get out of the way because it's none of their business.

while i fundamentally agree that people shouldn't be bothered by trans people that put a lot of thought into it and stuff, i don't think the "it's none of their business" is a particularly good or convincing argument for transphobes. for someone who thinks transitioning causes societal harm, they absolutely do think it's their business and they will make it theirs if it isn't. the goal should be to convince them in a way that will work to make it not their business.

[Vassenor]

You're literally saying we should repress trans kids

where did i say this. give me a quote from one of my posts where it says or implies trans kids should be repressed.

because some might possibly in some alternative universe pretend to be trans to get attention and then regret it later. You have provided no evidence to back this claim up, just repeatedly asserted that it will totally happen. This is the same logic the TERFs use when dealing with trans kids.

you yourself indirectly admitted this happens. what are the other 1/10 of detransitioners who aren't doing so due to abuse? i know a girl who this exact thing happened to (thought she was trans out of confusion from the way popular media depicts transgenderism, then realized she wasn't and regretted it). that doesn't mean it happens all the goddamn time, but if it has happened once, then it's not something that only occurs in an "alternative universe."

have you ever tried to do your own research on gender dysphoria and transgenderism in children? have you ever tried to scour journal databases a paper outlining the relationship between portrayals of mental illnesses in media and self-identification as having that mental illness among minors? i have and i realize how fruitless of a task this is; the research landscape is completely barren because of how new an issue this is. you're asking for data on a subject that has next to no scientific literature written about it. i can't give you the massive study concluding that with a p value of 0.000001 and an R² of 0.9999, exposure to media that glorifies transgenderism is correlated with false diagnoses of gender dysphoria or false identification of transgenderism. there's no paper with a sample size of thousands upon thousands of trans kids who were raised in a lab with tightly controlled media access. you want something that literally can't exist, and even if it did, i don't think you would accept it; you'd find some way around it because tRaNs rEpReSeNtAtIoN gOoD. so all i can ask you to do is open your eyes, exercise some freaking independence for once, and work to understand what is actually a very complex issue with a more intricate answer than the one you're giving (though it may not even be fair to say you're giving an answer at all, since i haven't seen you state your own opinion, only screech at me for having the wrong one)

And now we're into ROGD territory. Jesus.

But let's take this from the top: Stonewall: Dispelling myths around detransition

Factors predictive of regret in sex reassignment

The results of logistic regression analysis indicated that two factors predicted regret of sex reassignment, namely lack of support from the patient's family, and the patient belonging to the non-core group of transsexuals.

Not a whole lot to support "I saw trans people depicted positively and decided it was trendy".

I Detransitioned. But Not Because I Wasn't Trans.

After that, I detransitioned. I did not detransition because I wasn’t trans. I detransitioned because cisgender people physically and mentally beat me down until I gave in.

After a few years of building my confidence back up, I would go on to transition again, this time with access to culturally competent health care. My anxieties could have been alleviated if adults had simply listened, paid attention, and trusted me. It shouldn’t be that difficult for the generations to come.

Basically it seems like you're pushing for the Singal proposition - that exploring identity is harmful and should be prevented.

Media's 'detransition' narrative is fueling misconceptions, trans advocates say

In a 2015 survey of nearly 28,000 people conducted by the U.S.-based National Center for Transgender Equality, only 8 percent of respondents reported detransitioning, and 62 percent of those people said they only detransitioned temporarily. The most common reason for detransitioning, according to the survey, was pressure from a parent, while only 0.4 percent of respondents said they detransitioned after realizing transitioning wasn’t right for them.

So we're arguing for repression of trans kids because of a proportion of a sample in the tenths of a percent range.

Debunking the dangerous myths around detransition

So yes, the research is out there.

[Cordel One]

I don't get why trans people bother so many people. Every trans person I know put a lot of thought into it before transitioning and they're all much happier because of it. If someone doesn't support that, they should get out of the way because it's none of their business.

while i fundamentally agree that people shouldn't be bothered by trans people that put a lot of thought into it and stuff, i don't think the "it's none of their business" is a particularly good or convincing argument for transphobes. for someone who thinks transitioning causes societal harm, they absolutely do think it's their business and they will make it theirs if it isn't. the goal should be to convince them in a way that will work to make it not their business.

The issue is how to convince them to stop harassing trans people.

[Necroghastia]

See here's the thing. You're just regurgitating TERF rhetoric and going on about how it's a good thing. And you're doing it based on no actual evidence, just anecdotes that totes for real happened.

"TERFs think kittens r cute so if u say kittens are cute, ur regurgitating TERF rhetoric!!!!!!11"
TERFs aren't wrong about literally everything (in fact, ur average TERF is likely to be right about most things unrelated to issues specifically related to trans ppl ime). i dont know why u think it's a magic gotcha to say "waaa ur making the same argument for this one specific situation as TERFs" (which isn't even true btw, since TERFs would likely be interested in discrediting the trans movement with this shit)

And yes, this is just a rehash of mandating that schools "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship". It's disgusting.

im not mandating anybody to do anything lol, im just criticizing one particular artist's choice to release a particular album in the way they did and arguing that in general the approach that artist used is problematic. i don't know why u think that has to mean i want to ban anything. you're literally doing the same thing rn as right-wingers who freak out about how leftists want to take away their freeze peach when they get criticized on twitter

Isn't the album in question targeted at little kids? I don't see anything wrong with being positive towards the exploration of one's gender identity, even if that leads to them still being cis in the end. At the age we're talking about, there's nothing to really "detransition" from.

[Cekoviu]

where did i say this. give me a quote from one of my posts where it says or implies trans kids should be repressed.

you yourself indirectly admitted this happens. what are the other 1/10 of detransitioners who aren't doing so due to abuse? i know a girl who this exact thing happened to (thought she was trans out of confusion from the way popular media depicts transgenderism, then realized she wasn't and regretted it). that doesn't mean it happens all the goddamn time, but if it has happened once, then it's not something that only occurs in an "alternative universe."

have you ever tried to do your own research on gender dysphoria and transgenderism in children? have you ever tried to scour journal databases a paper outlining the relationship between portrayals of mental illnesses in media and self-identification as having that mental illness among minors? i have and i realize how fruitless of a task this is; the research landscape is completely barren because of how new an issue this is. you're asking for data on a subject that has next to no scientific literature written about it. i can't give you the massive study concluding that with a p value of 0.000001 and an R² of 0.9999, exposure to media that glorifies transgenderism is correlated with false diagnoses of gender dysphoria or false identification of transgenderism. there's no paper with a sample size of thousands upon thousands of trans kids who were raised in a lab with tightly controlled media access. you want something that literally can't exist, and even if it did, i don't think you would accept it; you'd find some way around it because tRaNs rEpReSeNtAtIoN gOoD. so all i can ask you to do is open your eyes, exercise some freaking independence for once, and work to understand what is actually a very complex issue with a more intricate answer than the one you're giving (though it may not even be fair to say you're giving an answer at all, since i haven't seen you state your own opinion, only screech at me for having the wrong one)

And now we're into ROGD territory. Jesus.

But let's take this from the top: Stonewall: Dispelling myths around detransition

k, how does this counter my point at all?

Factors predictive of regret in sex reassignment

oh, thank god, an actual stud--- oh, wait, i read it and the data seems to support what i'm saying about children who claim transgenderism being less reliably accurate in doing so! (did u not read the study u linked? lol)

age at onset of transsexualism	percentage of regretful subjects
0-9	75%
10-14	25%
15+	0%

i wouldn't even put much weight in this, though. this is on a sample size of 12 people in sweden specifically, it's from 1998, and it's only talking about SRS, which isn't all that transitioning is. it doesn't actually help either my argument or yours very much.

The results of logistic regression analysis indicated that two factors predicted regret of sex reassignment, namely lack of support from the patient's family, and the patient belonging to the non-core group of transsexuals.

"non-core group" is defined by this study as transsexuals without dysphoria, transsexuals who aren't straight, and transsexuals who exhibit sexual pleasure when cross-dressing (autogynephilia/autoandrophilia). it's a surprising, but welcome change that you're taking the transmedicalist & autogynephilia-sceptical side of the argument!

Not a whole lot to support "I saw trans people depicted positively and decided it was trendy".

the study was conducted in 1998 sweden, trans people weren't really depicted positively anywhere, so why would u expect that to be a common reason?

I Detransitioned. But Not Because I Wasn't Trans.

After that, I detransitioned. I did not detransition because I wasn’t trans. I detransitioned because cisgender people physically and mentally beat me down until I gave in.

After a few years of building my confidence back up, I would go on to transition again, this time with access to culturally competent health care. My anxieties could have been alleviated if adults had simply listened, paid attention, and trusted me. It shouldn’t be that difficult for the generations to come.

ok, so this is an anecdote. why am i supposed to accept this as a source if you refuse to accept my own anecdotes? i also haven't ever said detransitioning can't happen for these reasons (i've openly acknowledged and accepted that it can). this is a horrible attempt at a gotcha.

Basically it seems like you're pushing for the Singal proposition - that exploring identity is harmful and should be prevented.

im not but whatever lol

Media's 'detransition' narrative is fueling misconceptions, trans advocates say

In a 2015 survey of nearly 28,000 people conducted by the U.S.-based National Center for Transgender Equality, only 8 percent of respondents reported detransitioning, and 62 percent of those people said they only detransitioned temporarily. The most common reason for detransitioning, according to the survey, was pressure from a parent, while only 0.4 percent of respondents said they detransitioned after realizing transitioning wasn’t right for them.

that's still 112 people or 4 out of 1000 trans people. and i'm saying this might increase if we continue to have things like this children's music album, not that it's already massive.

So we're arguing for repression of trans kids because of a proportion of a sample in the tenths of a percent range.

you skipped over this last time, but again, please give me a specific place where i said trans kids should be repressed.

Debunking the dangerous myths around detransition

So yes, the research is out there.

u literally aren't reading what im saying (as usual) if u think this is equivalent to the specific research i would need to prove my point

god, why can't u engage in a serious argument with someone without pulling out this disingenuous bullshit? literally all of your sources do NOTHING to counter my arguments (even agreeing with them in places!) and are far below the quality you would demand from me. u refuse to acknowledge any sort of nuance, instead deciding to engage in bizarre shitflinging and construct the most massive and obvious strawmen of nearly any poster on this website. i want to actually discuss an issue that's important and very personally close to me in a productive manner, and yet you consistently fail despite my best attempts to coax you into doing so. i don't know what else to do at this point.

[Cekoviu]

while i fundamentally agree that people shouldn't be bothered by trans people that put a lot of thought into it and stuff, i don't think the "it's none of their business" is a particularly good or convincing argument for transphobes. for someone who thinks transitioning causes societal harm, they absolutely do think it's their business and they will make it theirs if it isn't. the goal should be to convince them in a way that will work to make it not their business.

The issue is how to convince them to stop harassing trans people.

making evidence-based arguments (which do exist) for the legitimacy of most binary trans people's identities and proving that their acceptance (note, not the same as glorification) does not lead to negative societal outcomes? both of these things are demonstrable claims that can be backed up by current research and people who keep an open mind can be convinced by them, though i do not have hope for most extreme transphobes and TERFs.

Isn't the album in question targeted at little kids? I don't see anything wrong with being positive towards the exploration of one's gender identity, even if that leads to them still being cis in the end. At the age we're talking about, there's nothing to really "detransition" from.

that's a much better point than the ones vassenor has been making, thanks! my counterargument would be that socially transitioning can still be rather difficult and inconvenient to undo, even for little kids who dont need to medically transition, and increased rates of detransitioning among younger age groups due to this sort of influence would lead to the delegitimization of trans youth who are actually trans.

[Neutraligon]

The issue is how to convince them to stop harassing trans people.

making evidence-based arguments (which do exist) for the legitimacy of most binary trans people's identities and proving that their acceptance (note, not the same as glorification) does not lead to negative societal outcomes? both of these things are demonstrable claims that can be backed up by current research and people who keep an open mind can be convinced by them, though i do not have hope for most extreme transphobes and TERFs.

Isn't the album in question targeted at little kids? I don't see anything wrong with being positive towards the exploration of one's gender identity, even if that leads to them still being cis in the end. At the age we're talking about, there's nothing to really "detransition" from.

that's a much better point than the ones vassenor has been making, thanks! my counterargument would be that socially transitioning can still be rather difficult and inconvenient to undo, even for little kids who dont need to medically transition, and increased rates of detransitioning among younger age groups due to this sort of influence would lead to the delegitimization of trans youth who are actually trans.

Which is basically saying that children should not be allowed to explore their preferences. Even if they are not trans, what exactly is the issue with exploring their identity?