TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Sundiata]

I thought this might be appreciated here.

[Grenartia]

I thought this might be appreciated here.

Pre-emptive and perpetual reminder: don't read the comments.

[Sundiata]

I thought this might be appreciated here.

Pre-emptive and perpetual reminder: don't read the comments.

Personally speaking, the monastic life is so peaceful by comparison.

[Khasinkonia]

Title has been updated. Unsure what to put as the next poll, so I'm leaving it blank until I get an idea or someone suggests a good one. A plurality of people seem to think I should do the next thread, so I will, but if a thread regular wants to throw their hat in the ring, I'll make that the poll.

Not a thread regular, but it might be worthwhile to make a poll regarding when/how mature minor doctrine ought to be brought into effect for consenting to puberty blockers and hormones. Like, what ages would this be applicable for, and what specific processes ought to be permitted.

[Ifreann]

teens should be allowed to take puberty blockers if they want to, and shouldn't have to decide about srs at the same time.

Hotter take put everyone on puberty blockers unless they can confirm that they are genuinely cisgender.

Can't let people make irreversible and life-changing decisions like going through puberty, even if they have the full support of their parents and physicians. People will either have to wait until they're 16 to undergo puberty, or in extreme cases receive a court-ordered exemption.

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Natal puberty resulted in some irreversible medical changes.

Yes, it does.

Like, what to do with a girl with a deep voice and a five o'clock shadow?

Provide her with the best available treatment options in light of the circumstances.

Smacks a bit of telling a pregnant teenager about available supports for minor parents. A solution exists if people were just allowed to use it.

---

If there’s no medical condition, sure. But when it comes to the diagnosis of gender non-conformity in minors, more often than not, doctors tend to prescribe blockers because they deem the psychological treatment to be more beneficial than the possible side effects or no treatment at all.

Yes. It's a very common thing that trans people mention: that the most psychologically damaging aspect of the process is the significant delay between wanting to begin the process and actually being able to, the delay either caused by a lack of provision for trans-related needs in the local healthcare provider, or regulations that push the date back so far that the person has more or less completed puberty by the time the process begins, which then can entail physically traumatic surgery that the puberty blockers would have partially or near completely eliminated the need for. The ruling says that it's to protect children, but all that it is going to do is put them at more risk of psychological damage.

For funsies, compare and contrast puberty blockers, a class of drugs that have been in use for decades but that are talked about as if they are some novel and experimental treatment that could have all manner of unknown side-effects, and the covid vaccines, all of which were developed in the last four months.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Shout out to based Elliot Page for coming out and using his platform to address serious issues.

[The Blaatschapen]

Shout out to based Elliot Page for coming out and using his platform to address serious issues.

Is he still a lesbian, or can we now consider him to be straight?

[Vassenor]

So after getting back in contact with the clinic they've agreed to suspend my second assessment after we realised I was trying to rush all the stuff on my end. Instead for the time being they're going to focus on counselling support to help me get ready for it all.

[Ifreann]

Shout out to based Elliot Page for coming out and using his platform to address serious issues.

Is he still a lesbian, or can we now consider him to be straight?

You'd have to ask him. And his DMs are probably pretty busy right now, so a timely response might not be forthcoming.

[Nea Chora]

Hotter take put everyone on puberty blockers unless they can confirm that they are genuinely cisgender.

Can't let people make irreversible and life-changing decisions like going through puberty, even if they have the full support of their parents and physicians. People will either have to wait until they're 16 to undergo puberty, or in extreme cases receive a court-ordered exemption.

based ifreann preventing teens from ruining lives by going through puberty?

[Auzkhia]

Shout out to based Elliot Page for coming out and using his platform to address serious issues.

Is he still a lesbian, or can we now consider him to be straight?

Elliot considers himself queer and non-binary.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Shout out to based Elliot Page for coming out and using his platform to address serious issues.

Is he still a lesbian, or can we now consider him to be straight?

Queer and non-binary.

[Ifreann]

Can't let people make irreversible and life-changing decisions like going through puberty, even if they have the full support of their parents and physicians. People will either have to wait until they're 16 to undergo puberty, or in extreme cases receive a court-ordered exemption.

based ifreann preventing teens from ruining lives by going through puberty?

If we accept the argument that minors who say they're trans now in the future might not think that, and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to undergo a puberty appropriate to what they are now telling us is their gender, it follows that the same is true of minors who say they're cis now. In the future they might not think that. The logical course of action, then, would be to put everyone on puberty blockers until they're old enough to choose between the hormones their bodies will produce and hormones from a doctor.

Or, radical concept, we accept that an inevitable consequence of people running their own lives is that sometimes they'll make a decision that they will later decide to reverse, and that instead of taking choices away from people we should be helping them make the best possible decision, and supporting them whatever decisions they make now or in the future.

[Hediacrana]

Is he still a lesbian, or can we now consider him to be straight?

Elliot considers himself queer and non-binary.

Just curious - have you seen him confirm the non-binary bit? I have not seen him explicitly refer to himself as such (though he does say he uses he/they pronouns).

[Vassenor]

I mean I guess I do feel a little bit sad that I've got to wait a little while longer to go start medical, but at the same time I don't want to burn myself out trying to get everything I need to do done extremely quickly.

[Fahran]

Smacks a bit of telling a pregnant teenager about available supports for minor parents. A solution exists if people were just allowed to use it.

In the absence of parental consent or approval from a physician/psychologist, both of which I believe should be readily available by law depending on the circumstances, I acknowledge that the treatment would be less effective. The issue is that unemancipated minors who don't have symptoms of dysphoria and/or the approval of a physician should not be taking or have access to drugs of that sort. Which is the law as written in the UK being applied consistently.

And, no, it's not at all like telling a pregnant teenager she's going to carry to term. Trans patients who weren't above the threshhold or never got to consult with a physician as minors would still transition if they so desired. They would just have to do in adulthood, which, as I acknowledged, probably isn't as effective. But I think I still prefer that to dealing with massive levels of desistance and potential bone issues, not to mention the ethical dilemma that comes with simply giving children drugs they want without parents or physician/psychologists involved at all. I want dysphoria treated as a medical condition. And potentially have all treatment options covered completely under the NHS. That requires us treating these as medically necessary procedures rather than elective procedures.

[Hediacrana]

I mean I guess I do feel a little bit sad that I've got to wait a little while longer to go start medical, but at the same time I don't want to burn myself out trying to get everything I need to do done extremely quickly.

Having mixed feelings about this makes sense. I'm sure you've heard this from others, but only you know what's the right pace and the right steps for you.

[Ifreann]

Smacks a bit of telling a pregnant teenager about available supports for minor parents. A solution exists if people were just allowed to use it.

In the absence of parental consent or approval from a physician/psychologist, both of which I believe should be readily available by law depending on the circumstances, I acknowledge that the treatment would be less effective. The issue is that unemancipated minors who don't have symptoms of dysphoria and/or the approval of a physician should not be taking or have access to drugs of that sort. Which is the law as written in the UK being applied consistently.

And, no, it's not at all like telling a pregnant teenager she's going to carry to term. Trans patients who weren't above the threshhold or never got to consult with a physician as minors would still transition if they so desired. They would just have to do in adulthood, which, as I acknowledged, probably isn't as effective.

"You can have puberty blockers when you're an adult" is functionally equivalent to "We can schedule your abortion for 18 months from now".

But I think I still prefer that to dealing with massive levels of desistance and potential bone issues,

What is so awful about desisting that preventing it justifies putting 100% of trans people through the wrong puberty?

not to mention the ethical dilemma that comes with simply giving children drugs they want without parents or physician/psychologists involved at all.

Because that's what was happening in the UK. Free puberty blockers for all.

I want dysphoria treated as a medical condition. And potentially have all treatment options covered completely under the NHS. That requires us treating these as medically necessary procedures rather than elective procedures.

It doesn't require anything of the sort.

[Suriyanakhon]

I thought this might be appreciated here.

My favorite take from the comment section is that letting youth transition caused the downfall of the Roman Empire.

[Sundiata]

I thought this might be appreciated here.

My favorite take from the comment section is that letting youth transition caused the downfall of the Roman Empire.

The world is unfortunately full of sad hateful people.

[Neanderthaland]

I thought this might be appreciated here.

My favorite take from the comment section is that letting youth transition caused the downfall of the Roman Empire.

Odoacer is spinning in his grave.

[Dumb Ideologies]

People will possibly be aware from previous conversations that I have my scepticism on whether the entire very rapid rise in youngsters declaring themselves transgender is the result of people "discovering the truth" due to better information rather than struggling to fit in and feeling out of place and thinking "oh it must be that".

I have some concern that people with other latent issues are being "funnelled" by the zeitgeist and rush to tell kids about this and the constant presence of this in the news. This is not "trending", I'm sure the people going through the assessment process believe that they're transgender - they just now have all their previous difficulties they would have done plus worries about gender they perhaps previously would not have had. This additive effect would begin to explain at least part of the suicide rate, some will of course be social attitudes but other discriminated groups of young people don't kill themselves at this rate so something else is likely going on.

That said, even from this position I find the stopping of blockers to be inhumane. If we've overadjusted in education and culturally, the problem is there. You have kids anxious and obsessed on how their body is going to change in a way they don't currently want. If you don't let them press pause you're going to make them much unhappier and surely produce much worse outcomes.

I'm aware that the argument is the impact of blockers in the long run is unknown and that those who start blockers almost always end up transitioning, some openly regret it, and others kill themselves, but it does not logically follow that stopping something that helps to mitigate the discomfort will somehow improve these statistics and lead to less ill health than the additional stress it causes.

I cannot see the logic of the position.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

People will possibly be aware from previous conversations that I have my scepticism on whether the entire very rapid rise in youngsters declaring themselves transgender is the result of people "discovering the truth" due to better information rather than struggling to fit in and feeling out of place and thinking "oh it must be that".

I have some concern that people with other latent issues are being "funnelled" by the zeitgeist and rush to tell kids about this and the constant presence of this in the news. This is not "trending", I'm sure the people going through the assessment process believe that they're transgender - they just now have all their previous difficulties they would have done plus worries about gender they perhaps previously would not have had. This additive effect would begin to explain at least part of the suicide rate, some will of course be social attitudes but other discriminated groups of young people don't kill themselves at this rate so something else is likely going on.

That said, even from this position I find the stopping of blockers to be inhumane. If we've overadjusted in education and culturally, the problem is there. You have kids anxious and obsessed on how their body is going to change in a way they don't currently want. If you don't let them press pause you're going to make them much unhappier and surely produce much worse outcomes.

I'm aware that the argument is the impact of blockers in the long run is unknown and that those who start blockers almost always end up transitioning, some openly regret it, and others kill themselves, but it does not logically follow that stopping something that helps to mitigate the discomfort will somehow improve these statistics and lead to less ill health than the additional stress it causes.

I cannot see the logic of the position.

basically this. yet another day of based di being based...

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I had the saddest call experience. Mother who recently lost trans daughter to suicide. We frankly had no idea how to help because the resources are tailored to transgender people in crisis, not their immediate families.

She was inconsolable. It was heartbreaking. How can the helpline help a parent in that position? I don’t think we can.

[Pasong Tirad]

Just dropping in to say I also stan Elliot Page and am ready to worship him.