TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Bad faith means deceptive not "likely to make someone sad."

I know what bad faith means and see no reason why my application of it doesn't apply to your posts.

You think that people being unhappy is a counterpoint to an argument because the discourse on transgender issues is about acceptance not about actually understanding.

Ironically, your dismissal of enby experiences and dysphoria counts as "not actually understanding". In fact, a refusal to understand. Besides, why shouldn't acceptance be a part of that? You really think if someone tells me they are enby I'd REK em with FACTS and LOGICS? No, I would accept it because it is not up to me to prove or disprove their dysphoria.

I don't care if people feel delegitimized I care about whether or not they're legitimate.

That is no-one's place to decide other than the specific trans individual. It is none of my business if they are legit or not, and I vehemently oppose your rather blatant gatekeeping over who is or isn't trans.

[Des-Bal]

I know what bad faith means and see no reason why my application of it doesn't apply to your posts.


Ironically, your dismissal of enby experiences and dysphoria counts as "not actually understanding". In fact, a refusal to understand. Besides, why shouldn't acceptance be a part of that? You really think if someone tells me they are enby I'd REK em with FACTS and LOGICS? No, I would accept it because it is not up to me to prove or disprove their dysphoria.

That is no-one's place to decide other than the specific trans individual. It is none of my business if they are legit or not, and I vehemently oppose your rather blatant gatekeeping over who is or isn't trans.

If you're not gatekeeping you're not real. If there's no criteria and gender is a social construct there's not actually anything wrong with forcing a child to conform, it's really no different than refusing to allow them to dye their hair or get a tattoo, refusing to hire the transgender is no different than turning down applicants with face tattoos. If you're saying this is all some weird larp I'd say science says your wrong and you haven't seriously considered the implications of treating your willful ignorance and lack of skepticism as something to be lauded.

[Grenartia]

I know what bad faith means and see no reason why my application of it doesn't apply to your posts.


Ironically, your dismissal of enby experiences and dysphoria counts as "not actually understanding". In fact, a refusal to understand. Besides, why shouldn't acceptance be a part of that? You really think if someone tells me they are enby I'd REK em with FACTS and LOGICS? No, I would accept it because it is not up to me to prove or disprove their dysphoria.

That is no-one's place to decide other than the specific trans individual. It is none of my business if they are legit or not, and I vehemently oppose your rather blatant gatekeeping over who is or isn't trans.

If you're not gatekeeping you're not real. If there's no criteria and gender is a social construct there's not actually anything wrong with forcing a child to conform, it's really no different than refusing to allow them to dye their hair or get a tattoo, refusing to hire the transgender is no different than turning down applicants with face tattoos. If you're saying this is all some weird larp I'd say science says your wrong and you haven't seriously considered the implications of treating your willful ignorance and lack of skepticism as something to be lauded.

Genuine question: do you really have nothing more fun to do with your life right now than to camp in the trans thread and make bad faith arguments to try and "own the transes"?

[Page]

I know what bad faith means and see no reason why my application of it doesn't apply to your posts.


Ironically, your dismissal of enby experiences and dysphoria counts as "not actually understanding". In fact, a refusal to understand. Besides, why shouldn't acceptance be a part of that? You really think if someone tells me they are enby I'd REK em with FACTS and LOGICS? No, I would accept it because it is not up to me to prove or disprove their dysphoria.

That is no-one's place to decide other than the specific trans individual. It is none of my business if they are legit or not, and I vehemently oppose your rather blatant gatekeeping over who is or isn't trans.

If you're not gatekeeping you're not real. If there's no criteria and gender is a social construct there's not actually anything wrong with forcing a child to conform, it's really no different than refusing to allow them to dye their hair or get a tattoo, refusing to hire the transgender is no different than turning down applicants with face tattoos. If you're saying this is all some weird larp I'd say science says your wrong and you haven't seriously considered the implications of treating your willful ignorance and lack of skepticism as something to be lauded.

Some of us think society should get over it's aversion to dyed hair and face tattoos too.

I'll never forget the time I went to CVS and the cashier had a surface piercing on her chest and I burst into flames from the shock of it all.

[Necroghastia]

I know what bad faith means and see no reason why my application of it doesn't apply to your posts.


Ironically, your dismissal of enby experiences and dysphoria counts as "not actually understanding". In fact, a refusal to understand. Besides, why shouldn't acceptance be a part of that? You really think if someone tells me they are enby I'd REK em with FACTS and LOGICS? No, I would accept it because it is not up to me to prove or disprove their dysphoria.

That is no-one's place to decide other than the specific trans individual. It is none of my business if they are legit or not, and I vehemently oppose your rather blatant gatekeeping over who is or isn't trans.

If you're not gatekeeping you're not real. If there's no criteria and gender is a social construct there's not actually anything wrong with forcing a child to conform, it's really no different than refusing to allow them to dye their hair or get a tattoo, refusing to hire the transgender is no different than turning down applicants with face tattoos. If you're saying this is all some weird larp I'd say science says your wrong and you haven't seriously considered the implications of treating your willful ignorance and lack of skepticism as something to be lauded.

So... refusing to hire someone on flimsy and prejudiced pretenses is no different from refusing to hire someone on flimsy and prejudiced pretenses, is what you're saying.

[Des-Bal]

So... refusing to hire someone on flimsy and prejudiced pretenses is no different from refusing to hire someone on flimsy and prejudiced pretenses, is what you're saying.

You are making that equivalence. I am saying that being transgender isn't a free for all larp it's an actual thing with biological roots and the science supports that.

[Des-Bal]

Some of us think society should get over it's aversion to dyed hair and face tattoos too.

I'll never forget the time I went to CVS and the cashier had a surface piercing on her chest and I burst into flames from the shock of it all.

I don't give two fucks how someone chooses to live their life. I also don't give two fucks if someone gets fired after they get a face tattoo, I don't care that the military prohibits people with face tattoos from serving, and if someone suggests their face tattoo should be covered by insurance I look at them like they're full of shit.

Genuine question: do you really have nothing more fun to do with your life right now than to camp in the trans thread and make bad faith arguments to try and "own the transes"?

At work? Fucking no. I'm also not sure who you're quoting or how "being transgender is not the same thing as drawing a dick on your face" is ownage.

[Riviere Renard]

Des-Bal:
Person A says "I experience a thing". A scientist says "research shows their experience makes sense and should be accommodated for". You say "okay, I respect them and will fight for their rights, because they are valid".

Person B says "I experience the same thing, but in a slightly different way". A scientist says "we haven't had enough time or resources to conclude anything about their experience. Please hold on for more research." You say "well clearly their lying, or self deceiving, or invading other peoples spaces, or just plane not valid. We need to tell them their experiences don't exist."

Why? Why are you like this?


Also note: the "Guidelines for Psychological Practice With Transgender and Gender Nonconforming People" by the American Psychological Association mentions

Guideline 1. Psychologists understand that gender is a nonbinary construct that allows for a range of gender identities and that a person’s gender identity may not align with sex assigned at birth.

https://www.apa.org/practice/guidelines/transgender.pdf


An identity need not be proved without a doubt valid before accepting it. Were you anti-trans before 1995 when the oldest study on the trans brain from the "TERF argument rebuttal master doc" was published?

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

If you're not gatekeeping you're not real.

Welp guess I am just not real now for not excluding non-binary people.

If there's no criteria and gender is a social construct there's not actually anything wrong with forcing a child to conform,

Bit of a slippery slope.

it's really no different than refusing to allow them to dye their hair or get a tattoo,

What are you talking about? There is a world of difference between getting a tattoo/dying hair and identifying as the gender you were not assigned at birth. This is the same argument people make about transtrenders, except they are not nearly as common as you might think.

refusing to hire the transgender is no different than turning down applicants with face tattoos.

Bruh. Refusing to hire the trans person because they are trans is, you know, discrimination. As is denying applicants with face tattoos. What the-? If someone being turned down a job is because of their gender and not their skills (or lackthereof) then that is unfair.

If you're saying this is all some weird larp

Again with the bad faith. I legitimately support and agree with the idea of enbies. Whilst I am not 100% sure about why people identify as such, I am willing for the meantime to accept it. Once more research has been conducted I will see where I am at. I am not going to deny someone the right to thrir identity because of a lack of evidence, because doing so is cold and deeply unhuman.

And yeah, feels over reals on this occasion. Normally I don't try and operate under this thinking, but enbies are not test subjects and are just as valid as trans people on the gender binary.

I'd say science says your wrong and you haven't seriously considered the implications of treating your willful ignorance and lack of skepticism as something to be lauded.

I am not denying the science that has been conducted on trans people on the gender binary. However, just because the non binary side of things has not been fully investigated by science, does not mean it is invalid.

I am sceptical of most things, which is why I want to understand more about enbies. That said, I have no reason to doubt anyone who identifies as anything. They are not harming me, you or anyone else.

Your gatekeeping over who can or cannot be trans is deeply disturbing. It is not your place to decide, and if gender turns out to be a big con, the worst that happens is more people are allowed to be who they are. How does that hurt you?

Oh wait. It doesn't.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I know what bad faith means and see no reason why my application of it doesn't apply to your posts.


Ironically, your dismissal of enby experiences and dysphoria counts as "not actually understanding". In fact, a refusal to understand. Besides, why shouldn't acceptance be a part of that? You really think if someone tells me they are enby I'd REK em with FACTS and LOGICS? No, I would accept it because it is not up to me to prove or disprove their dysphoria.

That is no-one's place to decide other than the specific trans individual. It is none of my business if they are legit or not, and I vehemently oppose your rather blatant gatekeeping over who is or isn't trans.

If you're not gatekeeping you're not real. If there's no criteria and gender is a social construct there's not actually anything wrong with forcing a child to conform, it's really no different than refusing to allow them to dye their hair or get a tattoo, refusing to hire the transgender is no different than turning down applicants with face tattoos. If you're saying this is all some weird larp I'd say science says your wrong and you haven't seriously considered the implications of treating your willful ignorance and lack of skepticism as something to be lauded.

Transgenderism is to identify as a gender other than the one you were given at birth. The only thing kept out of that gate are people who identify as the gender they were born as. So I will go on record to say that if you identify as the gender you were given at birth, you're not trans. To all the MTMs and the FTFs in this thread, I apologize.

[Fahran]

Transgenderism is to identify as a gender other than the one you were given at birth. The only thing kept out of that gate are people who identify as the gender they were born as. So I will go on record to say that if you identify as the gender you were given at birth, you're not trans. To all the MTMs and the FTFs in this thread, I apologize.

Why must you oppress me so?

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Transgenderism is to identify as a gender other than the one you were given at birth. The only thing kept out of that gate are people who identify as the gender they were born as. So I will go on record to say that if you identify as the gender you were given at birth, you're not trans. To all the MTMs and the FTFs in this thread, I apologize.

Apology accepted.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

If you're not gatekeeping you're not real.

Welp guess I am just not real now for not excluding non-binary people.

just like nonbinary people, apparently. this post was made by nonexistent gang.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

If you're not gatekeeping you're not real. If there's no criteria and gender is a social construct there's not actually anything wrong with forcing a child to conform, it's really no different than refusing to allow them to dye their hair or get a tattoo, refusing to hire the transgender is no different than turning down applicants with face tattoos. If you're saying this is all some weird larp I'd say science says your wrong and you haven't seriously considered the implications of treating your willful ignorance and lack of skepticism as something to be lauded.

Transgenderism is to identify as a gender other than the one you were given at birth. The only thing kept out of that gate are people who identify as the gender they were born as. So I will go on record to say that if you identify as the gender you were given at birth, you're not trans. To all the MTMs and the FTFs in this thread, I apologize.

No studies have proved the existence or validity of MTMs or FTFs, so we can deduce that they are just pretending to be cis. /s

[Grenartia]

Transgenderism is to identify as a gender other than the one you were given at birth. The only thing kept out of that gate are people who identify as the gender they were born as. So I will go on record to say that if you identify as the gender you were given at birth, you're not trans. To all the MTMs and the FTFs in this thread, I apologize.

No studies have proved the existence or validity of MTMs or FTFs, so we can deduce that they are just pretending to be cis. /s

Checkmate, cis people.

[Des-Bal]

No studies have proved the existence or validity of MTMs or FTFs, so we can deduce that they are just pretending to be cis. /s

Yes they have actually like a lot. You're acting like you're being held to an unfair and impossible standard but providing basic proof of things is literally how the world functions.

[Grenartia]

No studies have proved the existence or validity of MTMs or FTFs, so we can deduce that they are just pretending to be cis. /s

Yes they have actually like a lot. You're acting like you're being held to an unfair and impossible standard but providing basic proof of things is literally how the world functions.

A person's internal experiences can not be conclusively proven or disproven, and this is something anyone from any scientific discipline will tell you. Hard science cannot tell you about someone's internal experiences. So, yes, you are holding people to unfair and impossible standards by demanding proof for things that cannot be proven. Also:

You have no point of comparison to your own experiences,

That is literally everyone who has ever and will ever exist. Using that as an argument for or against anything is nothing more than philosophical wankery. Which would be fine, if this thread were for philosophical wankery, but it isn't. Feel free to start a "I'm just a brain in a jar and you're all my hallucinations, prove me wrong" thread if you'd like.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

No studies have proved the existence or validity of MTMs or FTFs, so we can deduce that they are just pretending to be cis. /s

Yes they have actually like a lot. You're acting like you're being held to an unfair and impossible standard but providing basic proof of things is literally how the world functions.

*says this* *doesn't provide basic proof*

[Des-Bal]

TERF argument rebuttal master doc

I've seen it posted in the feminist thread here on NSG, and I definitely think it is a much needed resource here.

A person's internal experiences can not be conclusively proven or disproven, and this is something anyone from any scientific discipline will tell you. Hard science cannot tell you about someone's internal experiences. So, yes, you are holding people to unfair and impossible standards by demanding proof for things that cannot be proven. Also:

The entire issue is that the standard of proof has been met with regards to non-binary transgender people. It's also met by hearing, sight, but strangely not telepathy. It vindicates amoxicillin, azithromycin, but strangely cannot support healing crystals. There must be some relationship to all these concepts where it suddenly and inexplicably becomes impossible to find supporting evidence, someone should dona study.

*says this* *doesn't provide basic proof*

I mean that list is full of proof of both transgender and cisgender people existing. I dont think more proof is necessary, I'll just idly swing this dead cat and - oh what so you know I hit evidence of gender and it came attached to evidence of sexual orientation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/

That's crazy how the study didn't just say "a bunch of people say they are" then rail against the concept of gate keeping.

[Hediacrana]

Meanwhile, India's government radically simplified the process of changing one's legal gender.

Trans people who want to use the system will be asked to upload an affidavit declaring their “self-perceived” gender identity.

They will then be sent an identity certificate that confirms their correct gender identity, and they will receive an updated identity card within 30 days.

[Auzkhia]

Meanwhile, India's government radically simplified the process of changing one's legal gender.

Trans people who want to use the system will be asked to upload an affidavit declaring their “self-perceived” gender identity.

They will then be sent an identity certificate that confirms their correct gender identity, and they will receive an updated identity card within 30 days.

Good on them, this how it should be, even where I live, you have to at least medically transition, though for non-binary you do not. But also some states you need srs and many countries are like that.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

Meanwhile, India's government radically simplified the process of changing one's legal gender.

Trans people who want to use the system will be asked to upload an affidavit declaring their “self-perceived” gender identity.

They will then be sent an identity certificate that confirms their correct gender identity, and they will receive an updated identity card within 30 days.

wow, that's really cool of them. of all the countries, i wouldn't have expected it to be india, but a pleasant surprise to be sure.

[Auzkhia]

Meanwhile, India's government radically simplified the process of changing one's legal gender.

wow, that's really cool of them. of all the countries, i wouldn't have expected it to be india, but a pleasant surprise to be sure.

India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan are relatively forward with trans rights, after all they had different takes on gender especially before British rule.

[Grenartia]

Nice to see some good news in 2020.

[Punished UMN]

Yes they have actually like a lot. You're acting like you're being held to an unfair and impossible standard but providing basic proof of things is literally how the world functions.

A person's internal experiences can not be conclusively proven or disproven, and this is something anyone from any scientific discipline will tell you. Hard science cannot tell you about someone's internal experiences. So, yes, you are holding people to unfair and impossible standards by demanding proof for things that cannot be proven.

Then how do we decide whose internal experiences are valid or not?