TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Auzkhia]

I find that I have become less interested in why trans people are trans. It really doesn't matter to me. My gender is just here and that's what I know. My non-binary gender and my womanhood are just happening, and I don't have to justify myself to others. I know what works for me, I know that others work for them. It's always why and how, yet, I never back cisgender people into the corner and demand a justification as to why assigned gender at birth was an accurate projection for them. But maybe I should, for fairness and equality's sake.

[Necroghastia]

I find that I have become less interested in why trans people are trans. It really doesn't matter to me. My gender is just here and that's what I know. My non-binary gender and my womanhood are just happening, and I don't have to justify myself to others. I know what works for me, I know that others work for them. It's always why and how, yet, I never back cisgender people into the corner and demand a justification as to why assigned gender at birth was an accurate projection for them. But maybe I should, for fairness and equality's sake.

Same.

[Auzkhia]

I find that I have become less interested in why trans people are trans. It really doesn't matter to me. My gender is just here and that's what I know. My non-binary gender and my womanhood are just happening, and I don't have to justify myself to others. I know what works for me, I know that others work for them. It's always why and how, yet, I never back cisgender people into the corner and demand a justification as to why assigned gender at birth was an accurate projection for them. But maybe I should, for fairness and equality's sake.

Same.

Biological essentialism, gender performativity theory, transmedicalism, feminine essence theory, etc— and all the atomized commonalities, these are all justifications for why some is transgender or a man or a woman, or any gender for that matter. I push back against more stronger like transmedicalism and bio-essentialism, as they lead to exclusion of other people based on gender identity. But still, I don't really care why I am trans, it's one of life's greatest mysteries, sure, but I know that my transition, socially, medically, legally, and psychologically, has had the greatest increase in material wellbeing and health, and how I express myself. I'm just a queer enby girl, don't ask questions.

[Des-Bal]

I find that I have become less interested in why trans people are trans. It really doesn't matter to me. My gender is just here and that's what I know. My non-binary gender and my womanhood are just happening, and I don't have to justify myself to others. I know what works for me, I know that others work for them. It's always why and how, yet, I never back cisgender people into the corner and demand a justification as to why assigned gender at birth was an accurate projection for them. But maybe I should, for fairness and equality's sake.

You should team up with the flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, faith healers, and other not correct people who are proud that they know things without an evidentiary basis.

[Des-Bal]

Biological essentialism, gender performativity theory, transmedicalism, feminine essence theory, etc— at the atomized commonalities, these are all justifications for why some is transgender or a man or a woman, or any gender for that matter. I push back against more stronger like transmedicalism and bio-essentialism, as they lead to exclusion of other people based on gender identity. But still, I don't really care why I am trans, it's one of life's greatest mysteries, sure, but I know that my transition, socially, medically, legally, and psychologically, has had the greatest increase in material wellbeing and health, and how I express myself. I'm just a queer enby girl, don't ask questions.

If you're not excluding people you're not actually a category.

[Arcturus Novus]

Gotta say, I'm with Auzkhia et al. here. Although, I'd say that pretty much all trans and nonbinary people experience dysphoria, whether it's just some level of disconnect with their birth gender or a genuine existential and physical dread that makes them want to crawl out of their own skin like a cicada that listens to too much noise music. There is some evidence to suggest that trans people's brains more closely resemble their actual gender than their assigned gender at birth, but also, science isn't infallible.

More importantly, gender is fucking fake anyways. Who gives a shit. If someone says they're a girl, let them be a girl. If someone says they're a boy, let them be a boy. If they wanna be both, or neither, or something in between, why the fuck does it matter to anyone but them if that makes them happy? Pathologizing and medicalizing transness doesn't benefit anyone, it just tells people who are questioning or somewhere in the NB umbrella that "hey, whatever you're feeling doesn't matter if Trans Science(tm) doesn't support your experiences, sorry." That's shitty. Why do that?

[Riviere Renard]

I'm seeing some debate over non-binary people so I think I'll say something.

1: from all the testimony I've heard, the vast, vast majority of non-binary people do experience gender dysphoria. I know I do.
2: they do transition, in the aspect as a lot of trans people, from one gender to another, just the second gender being non-binary.
3: femininity and femaleness are two different things. Non-binary people recognize this. Being less feminine, but still feminine does not warrant an identity of demigirl, it is literally a combination of neutrality and femaleness. I am genderfluid, and I can testify the innate difference between genders that I have felt. I have dysphoria, and it manifests itself differently on different days. When I am female the dysphoria is different than being demifemale, though not necessarily less.
4: there is not yet enough research on non-binary people to make conclusions on their relationship to binary trans people. At the moment, all we have is testimony, just like way back in the 80s when judging trans people was based almost exclusively on testimony.
5: exuding enby people from the binary transgenders is stupid because almost all non-binary people face the same issues as trans people, including HRT, SRS, discrimination, etc.
6: on genderfluidity, on my female days (I'm AMAB, btw), I have dysphoria. On my male days, I still sometimes have dysphoria, but more importantly I feel comfortable expressing myself as male. Based on any trans related discussion I could get my hands on, my female days correlate with the tranfemme experience exactly. I am as female on my female days to the same extent by all measurable bases as a trans woman. I am not on my male or enby days.

You have no point of comparison to your own experiences, you cannot differentiate between being gender fluid and having mood swings or manic episodes or even just being a plain old neurotypical cisgender person.

Mood swings? Manic episodes? What are you talking about? None of that would even remotely explain being different genders at different times. I don't even know where to begin.

1: not mood swings: my mood remains pretty constant. I have the same level of happiness and whatnot on my female days as I do on my male ones. Gender is not a mood.
2: not manic episodes: I think if I were clinically insane the mental health professionals who have been studying me for more than a decade would have known. I have been diagnosed with OCD & ADHD, but never bipolar disorder or DID or anything else like that. This is absurd. This is bigoted, quite frankly.
3: I am not cisgender: when I am female, I cannot live as male comfortably. It gives me dysphoria. Being mispronouned gives me dysphoria, leg hair gives me dysphoria, a lot of things give me dysphoria. When I am female, presenting as female is the only thing that is comfortable. It is severe. And it is the opposite, usually, when I am male. When I am male, I am uncomfortable being called female. And when I'm enby, I am not comfortable being called either male or female.
4: "You have no point of comparison to your own experiences": I have been interacting with trans people on transgender spaces for about a year now, and everything I have ever heard about being a trans woman in the early stages of transition apply to me as I hear them. According to the DSM-5's method of diagnosis, I would have gender identity disorder (of course, I am not a medical professional). Since I was, like, 12, I knew I wasn't always a boy. When I came out this February, I felt free for the first time and began socially transitioning. Other than sometimes being not female, I am as trans as anyone else according to every method of analysis I have. And when I am male, I simply am not. So instead of calling me a pretender or an invader or mentally ill, why not explore gender fluidity logically?

[Des-Bal]

Gotta say, I'm with Auzkhia et al. here. Although, I'd say that pretty much all trans and nonbinary people experience dysphoria, whether it's just some level of disconnect with their birth gender or a genuine existential and physical dread that makes them want to crawl out of their own skin like a cicada that listens to too much noise music. There is some evidence to suggest that trans people's brains more closely resemble their actual gender than their assigned gender at birth, but also, science isn't infallible.

More importantly, gender is fucking fake anyways. Who gives a shit. If someone says they're a girl, let them be a girl. If someone says they're a boy, let them be a boy. If they wanna be both, or neither, or something in between, why the fuck does it matter to anyone but them if that makes them happy? Pathologizing and medicalizing transness doesn't benefit anyone, it just tells people who are questioning or somewhere in the NB umbrella that "hey, whatever you're feeling doesn't matter if Trans Science(tm) doesn't support your experiences, sorry." That's shitty. Why do that?

Oh it's fake, so if a transgender woman wants to be referred to with female pronouns it's exactly as legitimate as someone wanting to be referred to by their juggalo name. Wanting to wear clothing traditionally associated with the female sex is as legitimate as dressing like a cowboy. It's all a dumb fucking game we're playing, is that the score?
Cool, then transgender people are just people failing to conform to society's expectations and can be taken as seriously as people who wear their pajamas to work.

[Des-Bal]

Mood swings? Manic episodes? What are you talking about? None of that would even remotely explain being different genders at different times. I don't even know where to begin.

1: not mood swings: my mood remains pretty constant. I have the same level of happiness and whatnot on my female days as I do on my male ones. Gender is not a mood.
2: not manic episodes: I think if I were clinically insane the mental health professionals who have been studying me for more than a decade would have known. I have been diagnosed with OCD & ADHD, but never bipolar disorder or DID or anything else like that. This is absurd. This is bigoted, quite frankly.
3: I am not cisgender: when I am female, I cannot live as male comfortably. It gives me dysphoria. Being mispronouned gives me dysphoria, leg hair gives me dysphoria, a lot of things give me dysphoria. When I am female, presenting as female is the only thing that is comfortable. It is severe. And it is the opposite, usually, when I am male. When I am male, I am uncomfortable being called female. And when I'm enby, I am not comfortable being called either male or female.
4: "You have no point of comparison to your own experiences": I have been interacting with trans people on transgender spaces for about a year now, and everything I have ever heard about being a trans woman in the early stages of transition apply to me as I hear them. According to the DSM-5's method of diagnosis, I would have gender identity disorder (of course, I am not a medical professional). Since I was, like, 12, I knew I wasn't always a boy. When I came out this February, I felt free for the first time and began socially transitioning. Other than sometimes being not female, I am as trans as anyone else according to every method of analysis I have. And when I am male, I simply am not. So instead of calling me a pretender or an invader or mentally ill, why not explore gender fluidity logically?

From a logical perspective your brain is better wired for deception then accurate self understanding.

[Auzkhia]

Gotta say, I'm with Auzkhia et al. here. Although, I'd say that pretty much all trans and nonbinary people experience dysphoria, whether it's just some level of disconnect with their birth gender or a genuine existential and physical dread that makes them want to crawl out of their own skin like a cicada that listens to too much noise music. There is some evidence to suggest that trans people's brains more closely resemble their actual gender than their assigned gender at birth, but also, science isn't infallible.

More importantly, gender is fucking fake anyways. Who gives a shit. If someone says they're a girl, let them be a girl. If someone says they're a boy, let them be a boy. If they wanna be both, or neither, or something in between, why the fuck does it matter to anyone but them if that makes them happy? Pathologizing and medicalizing transness doesn't benefit anyone, it just tells people who are questioning or somewhere in the NB umbrella that "hey, whatever you're feeling doesn't matter if Trans Science(tm) doesn't support your experiences, sorry." That's shitty. Why do that?

Exactly, there are many complicated factors at play, it's just best to respect good faith self-identification. I'm tired of being stuck in debates that are too personal. I come here to help and educate, and that only goes so far.

[Des-Bal]

Exactly, there are many complicated factors at play, it's just best to respect good faith self-identification. I'm tired of being stuck in debates that are too personal. I come here to help and educate, and that only goes so far.

There are no factors at play. There is a naked assertion and the assumption it will be accepted in the total absence of evidence. This is the same approach used by faith healers, fortune tellers, telepaths, necromancers, and liars use. Expecting politeness to drive the pursuit of the truth into the backsest.

[Arcturus Novus]

Gotta say, I'm with Auzkhia et al. here. Although, I'd say that pretty much all trans and nonbinary people experience dysphoria, whether it's just some level of disconnect with their birth gender or a genuine existential and physical dread that makes them want to crawl out of their own skin like a cicada that listens to too much noise music. There is some evidence to suggest that trans people's brains more closely resemble their actual gender than their assigned gender at birth, but also, science isn't infallible.

More importantly, gender is fucking fake anyways. Who gives a shit. If someone says they're a girl, let them be a girl. If someone says they're a boy, let them be a boy. If they wanna be both, or neither, or something in between, why the fuck does it matter to anyone but them if that makes them happy? Pathologizing and medicalizing transness doesn't benefit anyone, it just tells people who are questioning or somewhere in the NB umbrella that "hey, whatever you're feeling doesn't matter if Trans Science(tm) doesn't support your experiences, sorry." That's shitty. Why do that?

Oh it's fake, so if a transgender woman wants to be referred to with female pronouns it's exactly as legitimate as someone wanting to be referred to by their juggalo name. Wanting to wear clothing traditionally associated with the female sex is as legitimate as dressing like a cowboy. It's all a dumb fucking game we're playing, is that the score?
Cool, then transgender people are just people failing to conform to society's expectations and can be taken as seriously as people who wear their pajamas to work.

If you don’t want to argue my comments in good faith, that’s fine, I can’t make you, but you know good and well that isn’t what I mean.

If you want me to be more proper about it, what I mean is that gender, as it exists, is a complex mix of physical and social factors that have lots of different meanings and connotations to lord of different people across lots of different cultures. It’s fake in the same sense that, like, art is fake. Yes, it’s a perceivable, understandable Thing and yes, it affects our day-to-day, but its current incarnation is something we made up. We can make our own rules if we want to. People can, in short, be whatever the fuck they want to be. No one is hurt by someone identifying as any myriad of nonbinary identities. I, as a trans woman, am not hurt by that. It’s such a fucking non-issue.

[Senkaku]

Cool, then transgender people are just people failing to conform to society's expectations and can be taken as seriously as people who wear their pajamas to work.

your expectations are not necessarily the expectations of all of whoever you're including in the definition of "society"

[Des-Bal]

If you don’t want to argue my comments in good faith, that’s fine, I can’t make you, but you know good and well that isn’t what I mean.

If you want me to be more proper about it, what I mean is that gender, as it exists, is a complex mix of physical and social factors that have lots of different meanings and connotations to lord of different people across lots of different cultures. It’s fake in the same sense that, like, art is fake. Yes, it’s a perceivable, understandable Thing and yes, it affects our day-to-day, but its current incarnation is something we made up. We can make our own rules if we want to. People can, in short, be whatever the fuck they want to be. No one is hurt by someone identifying as any myriad of nonbinary identities. I, as a trans woman, am not hurt by that. It’s such a fucking non-issue.

I am confident it's not what you're saying because I'm sure you've never considered the implications of the weapons grade bullshit you've accepted and defended as gospel.

Its art, it's subjective, its bullshit- if there's no actual basis it's just being a weirdo. Ae can do whatever we want to and if I want to wear pajamas to court I enjoy no expectation that I'll be treated like a serious person. When you breach societal norms you're a fucking weirdo even if it's what you'd prefer doing. The reason being transgender isn't on the same social level as scratching your balls in public is because of the idea that it is NOT simply doing what you want and its justification is NOT simply that it isn't hurting anyone. Do you know how much socially unacceptable shit you can do without hurting anyone? A lot.

[Des-Bal]

your expectations are not necessarily the expectations of all of whoever you're including in the definition of "society"

Are you arguing it is in fact socially acceptable to wear pajamas to work? If you are not then nothing you just said matters.

[Arcturus Novus]

If you don’t want to argue my comments in good faith, that’s fine, I can’t make you, but you know good and well that isn’t what I mean.

If you want me to be more proper about it, what I mean is that gender, as it exists, is a complex mix of physical and social factors that have lots of different meanings and connotations to lord of different people across lots of different cultures. It’s fake in the same sense that, like, art is fake. Yes, it’s a perceivable, understandable Thing and yes, it affects our day-to-day, but its current incarnation is something we made up. We can make our own rules if we want to. People can, in short, be whatever the fuck they want to be. No one is hurt by someone identifying as any myriad of nonbinary identities. I, as a trans woman, am not hurt by that. It’s such a fucking non-issue.

I am confident it's not what you're saying because I'm sure you've never considered the implications of the weapons grade bullshit you've accepted and defended as gospel.

Its art, it's subjective, its bullshit- if there's no actual basis it's just being a weirdo. Ae can do whatever we want to and if I want to wear pajamas to court I enjoy no expectation that I'll be treated like a serious person. When you breach societal norms you're a fucking weirdo even if it's what you'd prefer doing. The reason being transgender isn't on the same social level as scratching your balls in public is because of the idea that it is NOT simply doing what you want and its justification is NOT simply that it isn't hurting anyone. Do you know how much socially unacceptable shit you can do without hurting anyone? A lot.

I am a weirdo. We're all weirdos. Breaching societal norms is inherently weird. Why the fuck do you think they call us queers? Why is it a bad thing to embrace that? I'm a weird, loud, transsexual dyke with a mullet and tattoos and a strong desire to never fucking conform if I can help it. You don't need to be normal and serious and ""respectable"" to be you.

Also, just in case you really think I think being trans is somehow comparable to being, like, a juggalo or wearing your PJs to the office? I don't. No one's ever called me a faggot or tried to assault me for the latter.

[New haven america]

If you don’t want to argue my comments in good faith, that’s fine, I can’t make you, but you know good and well that isn’t what I mean.

If you want me to be more proper about it, what I mean is that gender, as it exists, is a complex mix of physical and social factors that have lots of different meanings and connotations to lord of different people across lots of different cultures. It’s fake in the same sense that, like, art is fake. Yes, it’s a perceivable, understandable Thing and yes, it affects our day-to-day, but its current incarnation is something we made up. We can make our own rules if we want to. People can, in short, be whatever the fuck they want to be. No one is hurt by someone identifying as any myriad of nonbinary identities. I, as a trans woman, am not hurt by that. It’s such a fucking non-issue.

I am confident it's not what you're saying because I'm sure you've never considered the implications of the weapons grade bullshit you've accepted and defended as gospel.

Its art, it's subjective, its bullshit- if there's no actual basis it's just being a weirdo. Ae can do whatever we want to and if I want to wear pajamas to court I enjoy no expectation that I'll be treated like a serious person. When you breach societal norms you're a fucking weirdo even if it's what you'd prefer doing. The reason being transgender isn't on the same social level as scratching your balls in public is because of the idea that it is NOT simply doing what you want and its justification is NOT simply that it isn't hurting anyone. Do you know how much socially unacceptable shit you can do without hurting anyone? A lot.

I feel we need to revisit one of the most basic arguments when talking about this. Just because the majority does something doesn't mean it's right, nor does the majority doing something doesn't automatically means it's wrong, and vice versa.

As can bee seen by the rampant racism and sexism performed by the majority of American society in the 1900's.

[Riviere Renard]

Mood swings? Manic episodes? What are you talking about? None of that would even remotely explain being different genders at different times. I don't even know where to begin.

1: not mood swings: my mood remains pretty constant. I have the same level of happiness and whatnot on my female days as I do on my male ones. Gender is not a mood.
2: not manic episodes: I think if I were clinically insane the mental health professionals who have been studying me for more than a decade would have known. I have been diagnosed with OCD & ADHD, but never bipolar disorder or DID or anything else like that. This is absurd. This is bigoted, quite frankly.
3: I am not cisgender: when I am female, I cannot live as male comfortably. It gives me dysphoria. Being mispronouned gives me dysphoria, leg hair gives me dysphoria, a lot of things give me dysphoria. When I am female, presenting as female is the only thing that is comfortable. It is severe. And it is the opposite, usually, when I am male. When I am male, I am uncomfortable being called female. And when I'm enby, I am not comfortable being called either male or female.
4: "You have no point of comparison to your own experiences": I have been interacting with trans people on transgender spaces for about a year now, and everything I have ever heard about being a trans woman in the early stages of transition apply to me as I hear them. According to the DSM-5's method of diagnosis, I would have gender identity disorder (of course, I am not a medical professional). Since I was, like, 12, I knew I wasn't always a boy. When I came out this February, I felt free for the first time and began socially transitioning. Other than sometimes being not female, I am as trans as anyone else according to every method of analysis I have. And when I am male, I simply am not. So instead of calling me a pretender or an invader or mentally ill, why not explore gender fluidity logically?

From a logical perspective your brain is better wired for deception then accurate self understanding.

So apparently, despite years of though and consideration, and experience spanning 9 months, everything I've experienced around my gender for my entire life is lie. That's good to know. Guess I'll go back to my egg. /s

Maybe, instead of completely disregarding any explanation of experience that does not perfectly conform to your per-conceved notion of gender, you should actually engage with it and provide an alternate explanation that makes sense. If being a girl gives me dysphoria and being a boy gives me dysphoria, what am I? And if you say "insane" or "a liar" remember that is exectly what transphobes said to trans people, which means this time you need some serious evidence that disproves double dysphoria. And not just science. Science is a good start but research has only gone so far and there are far more aspects to dysphoria than the hand full of studies engaging with brain makeup. Remember, science was initially on the side of transphobes and homophobes.

You should team up with the flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, faith healers, and other not correct people who are proud that they know things without an evidentiary basis.

Some and possibly most of them. There's a host of biological reasons for someone identifying as male despite being a member of the female sex and the evidence supports that. There is no such basis of support for someone who claims to be a third gender, have no gender, or change genders throughout the day.

When we talk about transgender men and transgender women it is the easiest thing in the world to find hard proof that supports their existence but when we talk about nonbinary people the absolute best support anybody has is "well they say they are."

A long time ago in a science convention far far away (from Canada, my home)
Newton: ...The apple falling on my head, combined with the measurements of universal acceleration, support my notion of a force called gravity.
Scientist: Cool! So what is the scientific explanation of it?
Newton: Well, I have a hypothesis, but I haven't done much research yet, so I'll get back to you when I've experimented more.
Scientist: Well then that view is completely useless
Newton: Huh?
Scientist: If you don't have a peer reviewed, up to date scientific explanation, then your observations are conjecture and shall be ignored.
Newton: That's... not how... science works...?
Scientist: Okay everyone, lets go.
*Scientists leave*
Newton: ...
Newton:

You should team up with the flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, faith healers, and other not correct people who are proud that they know things without an evidentiary basis.

Flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, faith healers, all these people haven't any evidence that hasn't been disproved. Enbies, on the other hand, have their experiance that goes into a lot of detail about non-binary dysphoria. I provided you evidence and all you did was shrug it off and call it self-deception like a flat earther to any sense of logic from the scientific community. You are unconvincing, insincere, and unwilling to face any facts that aren't based in scientific journals. Well guess what, science doesn't start in a peer reviewed journal, it starts with observation. I have observed gender fluidity, you have failed to disprove that observation, so now you need to explain it. Or do you like presenting faithless arguments that don't hold up to facts?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'm seeing some debate over non-binary people so I think I'll say something.

1: from all the testimony I've heard, the vast, vast majority of non-binary people do experience gender dysphoria. I know I do.
2: they do transition, in the aspect as a lot of trans people, from one gender to another, just the second gender being non-binary.
3: femininity and femaleness are two different things. Non-binary people recognize this. Being less feminine, but still feminine does not warrant an identity of demigirl, it is literally a combination of neutrality and femaleness. I am genderfluid, and I can testify the innate difference between genders that I have felt. I have dysphoria, and it manifests itself differently on different days. When I am female the dysphoria is different than being demifemale, though not necessarily less.
4: there is not yet enough research on non-binary people to make conclusions on their relationship to binary trans people. At the moment, all we have is testimony, just like way back in the 80s when judging trans people was based almost exclusively on testimony.
5: exuding enby people from the binary transgenders is stupid because almost all non-binary people face the same issues as trans people, including HRT, SRS, discrimination, etc.
6: on genderfluidity, on my female days (I'm AMAB, btw), I have dysphoria. On my male days, I still sometimes have dysphoria, but more importantly I feel comfortable expressing myself as male. Based on any trans related discussion I could get my hands on, my female days correlate with the tranfemme experience exactly. I am as female on my female days to the same extent by all measurable bases as a trans woman. I am not on my male or enby days.

You have no point of comparison to your own experiences, you cannot differentiate between being gender fluid and having mood swings or manic episodes or even just being a plain old neurotypical cisgender person.

What is it about binary trans people that enables their experience of gender dysphoria to be different from an ordinary panic attack or depressive episode, that doesn't also apply to non-binary trans people?

[Grenartia]

TERF argument rebuttal master doc

I've seen it posted in the feminist thread here on NSG, and I definitely think it is a much needed resource here.

I definitely haven't been as diligent with updating the OP as I should be. And my multi-month hiatus was also pretty bad, too.

I've never been able to shake the strong suspicion that binary transgender people and the non-binary trans community are speaking about irreconcilably different things when they talk about gender identity, and that this is why there's a lot of conflict online.

When I talk about gender identity I'm thinking about one's mental map of the body and what it should be like, and I rope off presentation and gender norms into a separate category of gender roles.

If you don't have dysphoria but don't identify with one of the two genders then you seem to have less in common with my lot than you do with the experiences of the very many cis people who are uncomfortable at some time in their lives with gendered stereotypes and expectations of them. When people say that dysphoria isn't a fundamental part of the transgender experience when it's been fundamental to my own I have a hard time thinking that we're part of the same "thing". Is this coloured heavily by my own lived experience of being transgender? Absolutely. But it means when I talk to non-binary people I can never recognise the underpinning of their claims as fully legitimate. And presumably vice-versa.

Gender has psychological, biological and social elements, it seems very odd to me to believe that a new gender is created every time someone feels uncomfortable with some aspect of what consitutes "man" or "woman". This is particularly the case with "demigender" people who partially but don't entirely identify with one of the two genders. There's an argument that such a conception covers most of the cis population in some regard.

There is a general trend in society - perhaps due to our basic social needs as community feeling has gradually declined under the liberal individualist onslaught - for hobbies, fashion and so on to be essentialised into identities around which some form of kinship network can be established. I'm not convinced that what is being described in gender variance is often really a separate thing from being a "tomboy" or "effeminate male" and I worry that many people are constructing and being socialised into this need for neopronouns and a shopping list of criteria for recognition in a way that needlessly "others" themselves.

I think in transgender spaces there's often a deliberate ambiguity and papering over the very different conceptions of what gender really is. People suddenly realising that not everyone has the same model and snarling at each other is how a lot of the conflict starts. And as the two different conceptions are kind of irreconcilable regardless of what some waffly academics might like to pretend, and so fundamental to how we conceive ourselves, I wonder how much we can ever be one community.

You feel patronised and diminished by my emphasis on dysphoria, many of us feel the same way when non-binary people try to push the Butlerian deconstructionist narrative where everything is performance and play as the community's "official" narrative. When we talk about what trans rights actually means it feels like trying to redecorate a house with someone who's got synesthesia and describes all the colours as smells.

To be fair, many nonbinary people DO have gender dysphoria. A very large portion. And lots of binary trans people who do experience gender dysphoria sometimes end up identifying somewhat as nonbinary. It's actually a very common tendency I've found. I don't understand it myself, but I guess it is what it is.

More or less this.

You have no point of comparison to your own experiences,

That is literally everyone who has ever and will ever exist. Using that as an argument for or against anything is nothing more than philosophical wankery. Which would be fine, if this thread were for philosophical wankery, but it isn't. Feel free to start a "I'm just a brain in a jar and you're all my hallucinations, prove me wrong" thread if you'd like.

I find that I have become less interested in why trans people are trans. It really doesn't matter to me. My gender is just here and that's what I know. My non-binary gender and my womanhood are just happening, and I don't have to justify myself to others. I know what works for me, I know that others work for them. It's always why and how, yet, I never back cisgender people into the corner and demand a justification as to why assigned gender at birth was an accurate projection for them. But maybe I should, for fairness and equality's sake.

Same.

Shit, now I really want to ask cis people why they're cis.

[Des-Bal]

[
I am a weirdo. We're all weirdos. Breaching societal norms is inherently weird. Why the fuck do you think they call us queers? Why is it a bad thing to embrace that? I'm a weird, loud, transsexual dyke with a mullet and tattoos and a strong desire to never fucking conform if I can help it. You don't need to be normal and serious and ""respectable"" to be you.

Also, just in case you really think I think being trans is somehow comparable to being, like, a juggalo or wearing your PJs to the office? I don't. No one's ever called me a faggot or tried to assault me for the latter.

Yeah we are all weirdos who do not expect our weirdness to be protected or respected in the same way transgender people do and should. I hate wearing and tie and like carrying a gun, when I have go go court I'm sad but accept it because society does not yield to your every preference.

YOU ARE THE PERSON SUGGESTING THEY ARE THE SAME. I am literally arguing that is ridiculous.

[Des-Bal]

What is it about binary trans people that enables their experience of gender dysphoria to be different from an ordinary panic attack or depressive episode, that doesn't also apply to non-binary trans people?

If someone says "I suffer from panic attacks" do you react the same way as if they say "I suffer from ghost attacks?" The issue isn't just proving you have something it's using your claim you have something to prove a thing is possible.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

What is it about binary trans people that enables their experience of gender dysphoria to be different from an ordinary panic attack or depressive episode, that doesn't also apply to non-binary trans people?

If someone says "I suffer from panic attacks" do you react the same way as if they say "I suffer from ghost attacks?" The issue isn't just proving you have something it's using your claim you have something to prove a thing is possible.

I dunno if it's a matter of optics or your actual views, but you are arguing in such bad faith. Delegitimising gender dysphoria because it's from an enby, whilst defending the experiences and the dysphoria from a binary trans person, is really inconsistent. Your views are in line with trans medicalism, and honestly I see little value in it. It is not just biology at play, it encompasses a wide array of social factors.

[Grenartia]

If someone says "I suffer from panic attacks" do you react the same way as if they say "I suffer from ghost attacks?" The issue isn't just proving you have something it's using your claim you have something to prove a thing is possible.

I dunno if it's a matter of optics or your actual views, but you are arguing in such bad faith. Delegitimising gender dysphoria because it's from an enby, whilst defending the experiences and the dysphoria from a binary trans person, is really inconsistent. Your views are in line with trans medicalism, and honestly I see little value in it. It is not just biology at play, it encompasses a wide array of social factors.

Yeah, that's pretty much him in a nutshell.

[Des-Bal]

I dunno if it's a matter of optics or your actual views, but you are arguing in such bad faith. Delegitimising gender dysphoria because it's from an enby, whilst defending the experiences and the dysphoria from a binary trans person, is really inconsistent. Your views are in line with trans medicalism, and honestly I see little value in it. It is not just biology at play, it encompasses a wide array of social factors.

Bad faith means deceptive not "likely to make someone sad." You think that people being unhappy is a counterpoint to an argument because the discourse on transgender issues is about acceptance not about actually understanding. I don't care if people feel delegitimized I care about whether or not they're legitimate.