TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Auzkhia]

Trans people are often expected to be straight. People respected the potential to be attracted to men when they saw me as a woman rather than a man. I thought I was a bisexual man when I was in denial, but I really was not. I sometimes joke about transitioning from a gay man to a lesbian. Hell, I also joked about being a "male lesbian", which was a sign in retrospect. But, I guess I seem to come off as a sapphic woman? Do people think that I am a lesbian? I'd hope so lol. Egg me wished to be queer and still get chicks.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Neither, egalitarianism FTW.

same, but i do like the c o n c e p t of intersectionality, although in practice it's just suffering olympics and competing to be the most "woke".

I've gone on many a long ramble on intersectionality over the years. Where I've come to on it is that it's true as a purely analytical concept but it's not a sound basis for a strategy of political mobilisation.

Link to an effort post on the topic in case anyone is interested, not quoting in full because it be long.

On the topic of feminist waves I have much more respect - though not necessarily always agreement - with the second wave. Like a lot of theory, much of the third wave and subsequent dabbled in poststructuralism and deconstructionism. Those are one hell of a drug. Like any good hallucogenic, overuse can lead to permanent impacts on people's ability to express themselves clearly and offer much genuine insight into the world that sober people are living in. Butler's "Gender Trouble" is academia's My Immortal.

[Hediacrana]

Early care leads to better mental health in transgender youths, study finds.

Also, the sky is blue.

[Auzkhia]

Early care leads to better mental health in transgender youths, study finds.

Also, the sky is blue.

*files it in the No Shit, Captain Obvious cabinet*

It's like trans people who are supported and cared for are much happier and mentally well.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

same, but i do like the c o n c e p t of intersectionality, although in practice it's just suffering olympics and competing to be the most "woke".

I've gone on many a long ramble on intersectionality over the years. Where I've come to on it is that it's true as a purely analytical concept but it's not a sound basis for a strategy of political mobilisation.

Link to an effort post on the topic in case anyone is interested, not quoting in full because it be long.

On the topic of feminist waves I have much more respect - though not necessarily always agreement - with the second wave. Like a lot of theory, much of the third wave and subsequent dabbled in poststructuralism and deconstructionism. Those are one hell of a drug. Like any good hallucogenic, overuse can lead to permanent impacts on people's ability to express themselves clearly and offer much genuine insight into the world that sober people are living in. Butler's "Gender Trouble" is academia's My Immortal.

oh my god, di quoted me comrades, i might pass out. di, can i have your autograph?

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

Early care leads to better mental health in transgender youths, study finds.

Also, the sky is blue.

*files it in the No Shit, Captain Obvious cabinet*

It's like trans people who are supported and cared for are much happier and mentally well.

any kid in middle school or above should be believe if they say they're trans, and give age-appropriate care and support. (support group, puberty blockers if needed, the typical love and care that kids get). so many problems could be avoided if this always happened, but alas, reality is dumB and often getting dumBer.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

also, this is the four hundredth 69th page, in case nobody noticed.

[Auzkhia]

*files it in the No Shit, Captain Obvious cabinet*

It's like trans people who are supported and cared for are much happier and mentally well.

any kid in middle school or above should be believe if they say they're trans, and give age-appropriate care and support. (support group, puberty blockers if needed, the typical love and care that kids get). so many problems could be avoided if this always happened, but alas, reality is dumB and often getting dumBer.

Even if it means destroying the West and making the Baby Jesus cry. Well that's what the detractors say at least.

It's just bigotry and disgust, nothing rational about opposition to trans people transitioning, sure the scientific consensus supports us, but our word and worth as people should be enough, and our right to bodily autonomy.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

any kid in middle school or above should be believe if they say they're trans, and give age-appropriate care and support. (support group, puberty blockers if needed, the typical love and care that kids get). so many problems could be avoided if this always happened, but alas, reality is dumB and often getting dumBer.

Even if it means destroying the West and making the Baby Jesus cry. Well that's what the detractors say at least.

It's just bigotry and disgust, nothing rational about opposition to trans people transitioning, sure the scientific consensus supports us, but our word and worth as people should be enough, and our right to bodily autonomy.

ignorance and indoctrination breed hate and polarization. the only way to slow it and progress to equality is education, perseverance, and patience.

[New Visayan Islands]

I've gone on many a long ramble on intersectionality over the years. Where I've come to on it is that it's true as a purely analytical concept but it's not a sound basis for a strategy of political mobilisation.

Link to an effort post on the topic in case anyone is interested, not quoting in full because it be long.

On the topic of feminist waves I have much more respect - though not necessarily always agreement - with the second wave. Like a lot of theory, much of the third wave and subsequent dabbled in poststructuralism and deconstructionism. Those are one hell of a drug. Like any good hallucogenic, overuse can lead to permanent impacts on people's ability to express themselves clearly and offer much genuine insight into the world that sober people are living in. Butler's "Gender Trouble" is academia's My Immortal.

oh my god, di quoted me comrades, i might pass out. di, can i have your autograph?

Why don't we get back on track and knock it off with the irrelevant posts, shall we?

Thanks!
NVI

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

oh my god, di quoted me comrades, i might pass out. di, can i have your autograph?

Why don't we get back on track and knock it off with the irrelevant posts, shall we?

Thanks!
NVI

dang, i actually wanted an autograph, but ok then.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

if you don't think nb people r valid or vice versa, why?

[Auzkhia]

if you don't think nb people r valid or vice versa, why?

Valid feels overused to me.

I'm NB myself. I've been using real and legitimate. However, I'm not just valid, I'm sound. It's better to be sound than just valid. It's facts and logic.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

if you don't think nb people r valid or vice versa, why?

Valid feels overused to me.

I'm NB myself. I've been using real and legitimate. However, I'm not just valid, I'm sound. It's better to be sound than just valid. It's facts and logic.

true, i second this. sound and real, legitimate makes it sound like i'm talking about paternity.

[Dumb Ideologies]

if you don't think nb people r valid or vice versa, why?

This is the sort of question I can't quite answer with an absolutely general yes or no. Possibly because I'm overthinking the terms, after all I'm the sort of person who hears someone say "trans rights" and asks for a list of rights they're talking about, what responsibilities come with those rights, and how these rights are balanced with the rights of others should they come into conflict.

I am great fun at parties.

I'll give a more detailed response when I'm at my PC, my pudding just arrived at the restaurant.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

if you don't think nb people r valid or vice versa, why?

This is the sort of question I can't quite answer with an absolutely general yes or no. Possibly because I'm overthinking the terms, after all I'm the sort of person who hears someone say "trans rights" and asks for a list of rights they're talking about, what responsibilities come with those rights, and how these rights are balanced with the rights of others should they come into conflict.

I am great fun at parties.

I'll give a more detailed response when I'm at my PC, my pudding just arrived at the restaurant.

tasty.

[Cekoviu]

if you don't think nb people r valid or vice versa, why?

can you provide an explanation for the origin of binary transpeople that does not also implicitly or explicitly open up room for the existence of non-binary people

every society over human civilization has had only two binary genders male and female, with a "third gender" being either representative of:
- trans women who are socially prevented from being women
- genderfluid people who switch between male and female
- effeminate men who social stereotype precludes from being men
- gay men
given that the clear norm for humanity over thousands of years is to not have actual genders that are not male or female, the clear baseline hypothesis here is that humans can either be male or female in gender (although this may be able to change). sex is manifested neurologically via certain structural differences that fall into male and female categories - note that it's been fairly well-demonstrated that transgender people, even before hormone replacement therapy, have at least some sexually dimorphic areas that align with their desired sex (in a statistically significant manner, this feature occurring more frequently than it does in cis people of the same original sex).

now, the following part is speculative but makes sense given what we know: given the dimorphism we see, at least one of those areas is likely to be the origin of the brain's 'expected sex' for the body, that of course generating gender dysphoria when the body's sex characteristics fail to match the brain's model of what they should be (and as a corollary, when other people recognize one's body as the incorrect sex and socially treat them as such). non-binary people aside from genderfluid people have not to my knowledge undergone neural research, so we cannot say exactly what's happening there (in particular, agender people would be an important group to study due to their total or near lack of a gender identity). but given that there is no evidence that non-binary people of X gender form a distinct neural cluster, i do not believe we have enough evidence to conclude with the degree of certainty that we can with binary trans people that their actual gender is a distinct one matching what they 'identify' as (of course, we should do research to see whether that is true rather than sitting on austrian book site wildly speculating, but it so happens that i'm not a neurologist and this is the best i can do at the moment). we can come up with a number of explanations for why non-binary identifying people identify as such if indeed there are no distinct genders other than male and female, such as:
- having a binary gender but being unwilling/unable to accept that one is fully binary for reasons of fear, wanting to feel unique, etc.
- there being a neural disconnect wherein the brain actually has distinct gender-forming regions but they fail to be activated or recognized for some reason (to my knowledge this hasn't been tested, but i'm willing to accept this as an intuitive likely possibility for especially agender people)
- having a binary gender but being gender-nonconforming and not realizing that doesn't mean you aren't your gender
what this means: non-binary people and their allies should be less hasty about proclaiming how gender is a social construct, you're valid no matter what your identity is, you can be gay or lesbian no matter what your gender is, etc.
what this doesn't mean: we should misgender non-binary people, we should prevent them from accessing medical care, we should consider this topic a closed book and not do further research, we should make non-binary people undergo conversion therapy

[Neutraligon]

if you don't think nb people r valid or vice versa, why?

e d i t : s p o i l e r e d f o r l e n g t h

every society over human civilization has had only two binary genders male and female, with a "third gender" being either representative of:
- trans women who are socially prevented from being women
- genderfluid people who switch between male and female
- effeminate men who social stereotype precludes from being men
- gay men
given that the clear norm for humanity over thousands of years is to not have actual genders that are not male or female, the clear baseline hypothesis here is that humans can either be male or female in gender (although this may be able to change). sex is manifested neurologically via certain structural differences that fall into male and female categories - note that it's been fairly well-demonstrated that transgender people, even before hormone replacement therapy, have at least some sexually dimorphic areas that align with their desired sex (in a statistically significant manner, this feature occurring more frequently than it does in cis people of the same original sex).

now, the following part is speculative but makes sense given what we know: given the dimorphism we see, at least one of those areas is likely to be the origin of the brain's 'expected sex' for the body, that of course generating gender dysphoria when the body's sex characteristics fail to match the brain's model of what they should be (and as a corollary, when other people recognize one's body as the incorrect sex and socially treat them as such). non-binary people aside from genderfluid people have not to my knowledge undergone neural research, so we cannot say exactly what's happening there (in particular, agender people would be an important group to study due to their total or near lack of a gender identity). but given that there is no evidence that non-binary people of X gender form a distinct neural cluster, i do not believe we have enough evidence to conclude with the degree of certainty that we can with binary trans people that their actual gender is a distinct one matching what they 'identify' as (of course, we should do research to see whether that is true rather than sitting on austrian book site wildly speculating, but it so happens that i'm not a neurologist and this is the best i can do at the moment). we can come up with a number of explanations for why non-binary identifying people identify as such if indeed there are no distinct genders other than male and female, such as:
- having a binary gender but being unwilling/unable to accept that one is fully binary for reasons of fear, wanting to feel unique, etc.
- there being a neural disconnect wherein the brain actually has distinct gender-forming regions but they fail to be activated or recognized for some reason (to my knowledge this hasn't been tested, but i'm willing to accept this as an intuitive likely possibility for especially agender people)
- having a binary gender but being gender-nonconforming and not realizing that doesn't mean you aren't your gender
what this means: non-binary people and their allies should be less hasty about proclaiming how gender is a social construct, you're valid no matter what your identity is, you can be gay or lesbian no matter what your gender is, etc.
what this doesn't mean: we should misgender non-binary people, we should prevent them from accessing medical care, we should consider this topic a closed book and not do further research, we should make non-binary people undergo conversion therapy

alrighty. I like how you didn't take either extreme. personally I think brain structure/function is less important to personal sense of identity than people think it is (ex. 20 people could have v. similar brains and different labels and experiences), but I'm not a neurobiologist or a sociologist or anything, just an aspiring geneticist. overall take: 7.5/10

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

Valid feels overused to me.

I'm NB myself. I've been using real and legitimate. However, I'm not just valid, I'm sound. It's better to be sound than just valid. It's facts and logic.

true, i second this. sound and real, legitimate makes it sound like i'm talking about paternity.

since many people already agree that gender and sex are different and tend to correlate but not always, I don't think it's a big step at all to think that it isn't reasonable for people to feel that they are neither male or female or perhaps even both. labelling people is complicated, and often leads to confusion when people start calling themselves "star gender" (not real) or "juxera" (no one knows what this means except for people who use it) or "autism gender" (fake and blatantly offensive). I don't like how people will often cite intersex people as the only "proof" of being outside the binary like they're all token cis non binary people, which isn't even remotely true, and then forget them and talk about something else until someone brings it up again. most intersex people identify as male or female, and not trans (to my knowledge), so it doesn't make much sense. and people just dismiss it as a genetic abnormality, which is by definition true, though having blue eyes could also be considered a genetic abnormality, benign as it is. the studies on transgender brains are also too often cited to prove a variety of points, but an mri can't tell you if you're transgender, only you can tell yourself that. brains are more complicated than gender and still not fully understood, so i don't think it's conclusive proof of anything except that male and female brain structure differs, which people probably already knew. why? still up in the air. also, the third genders in other societies aren't great examples either. see cek's post.

tl;dr
non binary people are real and you can prove this without citing research papers on brains or intersex people, who are different. it's just simple, unbiased (mostly) reasoning.

[Cekoviu]

alrighty. I like how you didn't take either extreme. personally I think brain structure/function is less important to personal sense of identity than people think it is (ex. 20 people could have v. similar brains and different labels and experiences), but I'm not a neurobiologist or a sociologist or anything, just an aspiring geneticist. overall take: 7.5/10

yeah i'm not a neurobiologist either but i am taking a neurolinguistics class which actually makes me more than qualified to make broad assertions about the nature of gender, i have just chosen not to at this particular time :^)

[Cekoviu]

true, i second this. sound and real, legitimate makes it sound like i'm talking about paternity.

since many people already agree that gender and sex are different and tend to correlate but not always, I don't think it's a big step at all to think that it isn't reasonable for people to feel that they are neither male or female or perhaps even both. labelling people is complicated, and often leads to confusion when people start calling themselves "star gender" (not real) or "juxera" (no one knows what this means except for people who use it) or "autism gender" (fake and blatantly offensive). I don't like how people will often cite intersex people as the only "proof" of being outside the binary like they're all token cis non binary people, which isn't even remotely true, and then forget them and talk about something else until someone brings it up again. most intersex people identify as male or female, and not trans (to my knowledge), so it doesn't make much sense. and people just dismiss it as a genetic abnormality, which is by definition true, though having blue eyes could also be considered a genetic abnormality, benign as it is. the studies on transgender brains are also too often cited to prove a variety of points, but an mri can't tell you if you're transgender, only you can tell yourself that. brains are more complicated than gender and still not fully understood, so i don't think it's conclusive proof of anything except that male and female brain structure differs, which people probably already knew. why? still up in the air. also, the third genders in other societies aren't great examples either. see cek's post.

tl;dr
non binary people are real and you can prove this without citing research papers on brains or intersex people, who are different. it's just simple, unbiased (mostly) reasoning.

i'd argue that you cannot prove anything, much less nonbinary people, to be real. everything we perceive to be true is merely a product of our perceptions and may not ultimately reflect the true state of the universe. (read hume)

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

since many people already agree that gender and sex are different and tend to correlate but not always, I don't think it's a big step at all to think that it isn't reasonable for people to feel that they are neither male or female or perhaps even both. labelling people is complicated, and often leads to confusion when people start calling themselves "star gender" (not real) or "juxera" (no one knows what this means except for people who use it) or "autism gender" (fake and blatantly offensive). I don't like how people will often cite intersex people as the only "proof" of being outside the binary like they're all token cis non binary people, which isn't even remotely true, and then forget them and talk about something else until someone brings it up again. most intersex people identify as male or female, and not trans (to my knowledge), so it doesn't make much sense. and people just dismiss it as a genetic abnormality, which is by definition true, though having blue eyes could also be considered a genetic abnormality, benign as it is. the studies on transgender brains are also too often cited to prove a variety of points, but an mri can't tell you if you're transgender, only you can tell yourself that. brains are more complicated than gender and still not fully understood, so i don't think it's conclusive proof of anything except that male and female brain structure differs, which people probably already knew. why? still up in the air. also, the third genders in other societies aren't great examples either. see cek's post.

tl;dr
non binary people are real and you can prove this without citing research papers on brains or intersex people, who are different. it's just simple, unbiased (mostly) reasoning.

i'd argue that you cannot prove anything, much less nonbinary people, to be real. everything we perceive to be true is merely a product of our perceptions and may not ultimately reflect the true state of the universe. (read hume)

i mean, yeah, but postmodernism doesn't really work in terms of specifics or everyday application, it always gives way to hedonism or some other viewpoint, due to it's lack of certainty.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

alrighty. I like how you didn't take either extreme. personally I think brain structure/function is less important to personal sense of identity than people think it is (ex. 20 people could have v. similar brains and different labels and experiences), but I'm not a neurobiologist or a sociologist or anything, just an aspiring geneticist. overall take: 7.5/10

yeah i'm not a neurobiologist either but i am taking a neurolinguistics class which actually makes me more than qualified to make broad assertions about the nature of gender, i have just chosen not to at this particular time :^)

that's really cool, how do i take that?

edit:
I mean I know that brain structure and stuff is very important to gender, but it's not the deciding factor, if there is only one. I think nurture plays a larger role in gender, especially in trans people, and that it shouldn't be discounted and stated to be an absolute physical science or medical condition.

[Cekoviu]

yeah i'm not a neurobiologist either but i am taking a neurolinguistics class which actually makes me more than qualified to make broad assertions about the nature of gender, i have just chosen not to at this particular time :^)

that's really cool, how do i take that?

edit:
I mean I know that brain structure and stuff is very important to gender, but it's not the deciding factor, if there is only one. I think nurture plays a larger role in gender, especially in trans people, and that it shouldn't be discounted and stated to be an absolute physical science or medical condition.

if gender is largely a product of upbringing i do not see how the majority of trans people could exist, or situations like david reimer. obviously there's no one sulcus in the brain that if it has structure X it makes you have a female gender identity or whatever, but gender's pretty clearly embedded somehow deep in the psyche and the structural differences between the brains of men and women aren't just random statistical noise; the natural conclusion of that seems pretty clear.

[Suriyanakhon]

I know most of this thread is probably America or Britain-oriented when it comes to news, but thought I would share this.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/ge ... es-freedom

Minor victory for some trans students at a prestigious Thai university.