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Trans Discussion Thread 4: #GCIsCancelledParty

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should I OP the next thread?

Yes
25
40%
No
23
37%
Abstain
13
21%
Unsure
2
3%
 
Total votes : 63

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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:12 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:Abolish gender is at best a utopian pipe dream or at worst a TERF dogwhistle.

Marriage? Abolishing it would at the very least mean that there is no longer any legal and fiscal recognition of it. But, it seems that the legal institution, at the very least, of marriage ought to include more types of marriages between all sorts of adults, especially disabled individuals who could lose their benefits, and perhaps polyamorous relationships.

i find it amusing that the person who thinks one can be a non-binary lesbian (or indeed non-binary) believes abolishing gender is a problem. take a look in the mirror, your rhetoric may be different, but the result is the same

Abolishing gender, as a phrase, is lacking nuance. I suppose my goals involve abolishing aspects of gender, gender as a hierarchy, such as patriarchy, enforcing the binary, and gender roles, but gender as identity, expression, and social performance can stay around.

I never said it's a problem though, I said it's a thing that's just said without any plans. It just feels like empty theory. I'm sure some post-genderist could enlighten us
Last edited by Auzkhia on Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:14 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:Abolish gender is at best a utopian pipe dream or at worst a TERF dogwhistle.

Marriage? Abolishing it would at the very least mean that there is no longer any legal and fiscal recognition of it. But, it seems that the legal institution, at the very least, of marriage ought to include more types of marriages between all sorts of adults, especially disabled individuals who could lose their benefits, and perhaps polyamorous relationships.

i find it amusing that the person who thinks one can be a non-binary lesbian (or indeed non-binary) believes abolishing gender is a problem. take a look in the mirror, your rhetoric may be different, but the result is the same


can you provide an explanation for the origin of binary transpeople that does not also implicitly or explicitly open up room for the existence of non-binary people
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:17 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:i find it amusing that the person who thinks one can be a non-binary lesbian (or indeed non-binary) believes abolishing gender is a problem. take a look in the mirror, your rhetoric may be different, but the result is the same


can you provide an explanation for the origin of binary transpeople that does not also implicitly or explicitly open up room for the existence of non-binary people

every society over human civilization has had only two binary genders male and female, with a "third gender" being either representative of:
- trans women who are socially prevented from being women
- genderfluid people who switch between male and female
- effeminate men who social stereotype precludes from being men
- gay men
given that the clear norm for humanity over thousands of years is to not have actual genders that are not male or female, the clear baseline hypothesis here is that humans can either be male or female in gender (although this may be able to change). sex is manifested neurologically via certain structural differences that fall into male and female categories - note that it's been fairly well-demonstrated that transgender people, even before hormone replacement therapy, have at least some sexually dimorphic areas that align with their desired sex (in a statistically significant manner, this feature occurring more frequently than it does in cis people of the same original sex).

now, the following part is speculative but makes sense given what we know: given the dimorphism we see, at least one of those areas is likely to be the origin of the brain's 'expected sex' for the body, that of course generating gender dysphoria when the body's sex characteristics fail to match the brain's model of what they should be (and as a corollary, when other people recognize one's body as the incorrect sex and socially treat them as such). non-binary people aside from genderfluid people have not to my knowledge undergone neural research, so we cannot say exactly what's happening there (in particular, agender people would be an important group to study due to their total or near lack of a gender identity). but given that there is no evidence that non-binary people of X gender form a distinct neural cluster, i do not believe we have enough evidence to conclude with the degree of certainty that we can with binary trans people that their actual gender is a distinct one matching what they 'identify' as (of course, we should do research to see whether that is true rather than sitting on austrian book site wildly speculating, but it so happens that i'm not a neurologist and this is the best i can do at the moment). we can come up with a number of explanations for why non-binary identifying people identify as such if indeed there are no distinct genders other than male and female, such as:
- having a binary gender but being unwilling/unable to accept that one is fully binary for reasons of fear, wanting to feel unique, etc.
- there being a neural disconnect wherein the brain actually has distinct gender-forming regions but they fail to be activated or recognized for some reason (to my knowledge this hasn't been tested, but i'm willing to accept this as an intuitive likely possibility for especially agender people)
- having a binary gender but being gender-nonconforming and not realizing that doesn't mean you aren't your gender
what this means: non-binary people and their allies should be less hasty about proclaiming how gender is a social construct, you're valid no matter what your identity is, you can be gay or lesbian no matter what your gender is, etc.
what this doesn't mean: we should misgender non-binary people, we should prevent them from accessing medical care, we should consider this topic a closed book and not do further research, we should make non-binary people undergo conversion therapy
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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:04 am

I find it fascinating that turn of the century early sexologists and psychologists described homosexuality, specifically gay men, as "female soul in a male body" which sounds like they were calling gay men trans women, which is absurd, it then reminds me of when certain cranks call heterosexual trans people gay because they see them as their assigned gender, not their real gender.
Souseiseki wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:i find it amusing that the person who thinks one can be a non-binary lesbian (or indeed non-binary) believes abolishing gender is a problem. take a look in the mirror, your rhetoric may be different, but the result is the same


can you provide an explanation for the origin of binary transpeople that does not also implicitly or explicitly open up room for the existence of non-binary people

Why would you need to specify that? :eyebrow:

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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:41 am

Alright, so recently I’ve been having a debate with folks over an article I read about Shahid Buttar, where he describes himself as “a cisgender heterosexual man who also identifies as queer due to his gender expression being fluid”

Personally, I feel like he’s co-opting the label and it’s kind of offensive to me - we don’t say a cishet tomboy is queer, because they’re cishet. It bothers me because it feels like it undermines the thing that trans people have been working towards, that your expression of yourself doesn’t define your gender or your sexuality, and kind of feels like it invalidates trans people who don’t fully conform to their gender’s stereotypes.

Anyone else have thoughts I might be missing?
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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:31 am

Centai Mal wrote:Alright, so recently I’ve been having a debate with folks over an article I read about Shahid Buttar, where he describes himself as “a cisgender heterosexual man who also identifies as queer due to his gender expression being fluid”

Personally, I feel like he’s co-opting the label and it’s kind of offensive to me - we don’t say a cishet tomboy is queer, because they’re cishet. It bothers me because it feels like it undermines the thing that trans people have been working towards, that your expression of yourself doesn’t define your gender or your sexuality, and kind of feels like it invalidates trans people who don’t fully conform to their gender’s stereotypes.

Anyone else have thoughts I might be missing?

Does he consider himself gender non-conforming? I guess?? Maybe, I don't know. Based on how most people define queer and lgbtq+, I'd say no, but it feels like a gray area.

Though I bet he's saying this in light of his sexual harassment accusations from Elizabeth Croydon.

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:32 am

Centai Mal wrote:Alright, so recently I’ve been having a debate with folks over an article I read about Shahid Buttar, where he describes himself as “a cisgender heterosexual man who also identifies as queer due to his gender expression being fluid”

Personally, I feel like he’s co-opting the label and it’s kind of offensive to me - we don’t say a cishet tomboy is queer, because they’re cishet. It bothers me because it feels like it undermines the thing that trans people have been working towards, that your expression of yourself doesn’t define your gender or your sexuality, and kind of feels like it invalidates trans people who don’t fully conform to their gender’s stereotypes.

Anyone else have thoughts I might be missing?

you are not "queer" or LGBT because you're a slightly feminine man, full stop.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:58 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Alright, so recently I’ve been having a debate with folks over an article I read about Shahid Buttar, where he describes himself as “a cisgender heterosexual man who also identifies as queer due to his gender expression being fluid”

Personally, I feel like he’s co-opting the label and it’s kind of offensive to me - we don’t say a cishet tomboy is queer, because they’re cishet. It bothers me because it feels like it undermines the thing that trans people have been working towards, that your expression of yourself doesn’t define your gender or your sexuality, and kind of feels like it invalidates trans people who don’t fully conform to their gender’s stereotypes.

Anyone else have thoughts I might be missing?

you are not "queer" or LGBT because you're a slightly feminine man, full stop.


Are we gatekeeping again? -sigh-
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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:34 am

Vassenor wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:you are not "queer" or LGBT because you're a slightly feminine man, full stop.


Are we gatekeeping again? -sigh-

We are gatekeeping, considering that he’s a cishet dude. We don’t tell cishet tomboys that they’re queer, considering their expression has nothing to do with their identity or sexuality
“Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.”

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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:38 am

Auzkhia wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Alright, so recently I’ve been having a debate with folks over an article I read about Shahid Buttar, where he describes himself as “a cisgender heterosexual man who also identifies as queer due to his gender expression being fluid”

Personally, I feel like he’s co-opting the label and it’s kind of offensive to me - we don’t say a cishet tomboy is queer, because they’re cishet. It bothers me because it feels like it undermines the thing that trans people have been working towards, that your expression of yourself doesn’t define your gender or your sexuality, and kind of feels like it invalidates trans people who don’t fully conform to their gender’s stereotypes.

Anyone else have thoughts I might be missing?

Does he consider himself gender non-conforming? I guess?? Maybe, I don't know. Based on how most people define queer and lgbtq+, I'd say no, but it feels like a gray area.

Though I bet he's saying this in light of his sexual harassment accusations from Elizabeth Croydon.

Reading further sources - https://link.medium.com/vNliiqhCk8 - he keeps flip-flopping and is pretty explicit that he’s not GNC, or trans, or a minority sexuality, but he wants to “lean into” being queer. It just feels offensive and like he’s using it for clout
“Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.”

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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:55 am

Centai Mal wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Are we gatekeeping again? -sigh-

We are gatekeeping, considering that he’s a cishet dude. We don’t tell cishet tomboys that they’re queer, considering their expression has nothing to do with their identity or sexuality

Some people do. It's kind of a thing to tell tomboys/tomgirls that they're "actually" trans.

Anyway, "queer" is a dumb word that doesn't give really any useful information when it comes to identity. It's more of a human analogue to aposematism/danger coloring in animals.
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:13 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:you are not "queer" or LGBT because you're a slightly feminine man, full stop.


Are we gatekeeping again? -sigh-

literally any group will require some amount of """gatekeeping""" to keep it distinct from general society. so yes, sure. i have no problem with gatekeeping the LGBT community such that cishet people are not included, since the literal point of LGBT is "not cishet."
Proctopeo wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:We are gatekeeping, considering that he’s a cishet dude. We don’t tell cishet tomboys that they’re queer, considering their expression has nothing to do with their identity or sexuality

Some people do. It's kind of a thing to tell tomboys/tomgirls that they're "actually" trans.

Anyway, "queer" is a dumb word that doesn't give really any useful information when it comes to identity. It's more of a human analogue to aposematism/danger coloring in animals.

much like being a self-proclaimed right-libertarian - it's amazing how many analogues between the groups there are! horseshoe theorists were right
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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:38 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:We are gatekeeping, considering that he’s a cishet dude. We don’t tell cishet tomboys that they’re queer, considering their expression has nothing to do with their identity or sexuality

Some people do. It's kind of a thing to tell tomboys/tomgirls that they're "actually" trans.

Anyway, "queer" is a dumb word that doesn't give really any useful information when it comes to identity. It's more of a human analogue to aposematism/danger coloring in animals.


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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:41 pm

Centai Mal wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:Does he consider himself gender non-conforming? I guess?? Maybe, I don't know. Based on how most people define queer and lgbtq+, I'd say no, but it feels like a gray area.

Though I bet he's saying this in light of his sexual harassment accusations from Elizabeth Croydon.

Reading further sources - https://link.medium.com/vNliiqhCk8 - he keeps flip-flopping and is pretty explicit that he’s not GNC, or trans, or a minority sexuality, but he wants to “lean into” being queer. It just feels offensive and like he’s using it for clout


"I'm not one of you, but I'd like to play about with your forms of vocabulary and expression a bit and and use it to open doors for me."

This is what happens when you don't put up doors, fences and gates. Turn your back for a minute and dabbling cishets are walking off down the streets with the furniture and telly!

Honestly it sounds maybe a bit exploitative. But I find it hard to be that bothered by it. The people who have some degree of recognition that they're not "of" the community are much less bothersome than the people who explicitly position themselves within the community and yet blather endlessly about "play", "costume" and "performance" and about how every little aspect of societal gender needs to be deconstructed, brassily claiming themselves to be the victims of erasure when binary transgender people get understandably peeved as a result.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Proctopeo » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:51 pm

Giovenith wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Some people do. It's kind of a thing to tell tomboys/tomgirls that they're "actually" trans.

Anyway, "queer" is a dumb word that doesn't give really any useful information when it comes to identity. It's more of a human analogue to aposematism/danger coloring in animals.


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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:24 pm

What is GCI?
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Postby Vassenor » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:30 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:What is GCI?


A result of unclear syntax in the thread title.
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Postby Impaled Nazarene » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:59 pm

Recently made a purchase of autographed artwork under my new name. Super nervous but I am really excited.
Last edited by Impaled Nazarene on Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nuroblav » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:49 am

Vassenor wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:What is GCI?


A result of unclear syntax in the thread title.
The Huskar Social Union wrote:What is GCI?

Yeah I believe it was supposed to reference Gender Critical Feminism (GC), but I could be wrong.
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:53 am

Nuroblav wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
A result of unclear syntax in the thread title.
The Huskar Social Union wrote:What is GCI?

Yeah I believe it was supposed to reference Gender Critical Feminism (GC), but I could be wrong.


Yeah, it's GC Is, rather than GCI's
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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:46 am

Nuroblav wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
A result of unclear syntax in the thread title.
The Huskar Social Union wrote:What is GCI?

Yeah I believe it was supposed to reference Gender Critical Feminism (GC), but I could be wrong.

Thanks.
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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:56 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Reading further sources - https://link.medium.com/vNliiqhCk8 - he keeps flip-flopping and is pretty explicit that he’s not GNC, or trans, or a minority sexuality, but he wants to “lean into” being queer. It just feels offensive and like he’s using it for clout


"I'm not one of you, but I'd like to play about with your forms of vocabulary and expression a bit and and use it to open doors for me."

This is what happens when you don't put up doors, fences and gates. Turn your back for a minute and dabbling cishets are walking off down the streets with the furniture and telly!

Honestly it sounds maybe a bit exploitative. But I find it hard to be that bothered by it. The people who have some degree of recognition that they're not "of" the community are much less bothersome than the people who explicitly position themselves within the community and yet blather endlessly about "play", "costume" and "performance" and about how every little aspect of societal gender needs to be deconstructed, brassily claiming themselves to be the victims of erasure when binary transgender people get understandably peeved as a result.

See, I have zero problem with non-binary folks, a lot of my mates are non-binary. However, I have no problem with them identifying as queer because they have a gender identity different from their AGAB. This schmuck isn’t even claiming that, he’s just saying “sometimes I express myself androgynously or femininely, while still identifying as cishet” and wants to be queer, and I find that offensive
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KWaters
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We Should All Just Procreate

Postby KWaters » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:51 pm

I think it is still necessary for people to form the basic community which is family in order for the continuation of the human race. Hence, marriage should remain consensual and legal. https://onlysimchas.com/uncategorized/jewish-wedding-traditions-and-rituals/ :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:33 pm

Vassenor wrote:Are we gatekeeping again? -sigh-

You have to engage in some level of gate-keeping if terms are going to have any comprehensible meaning. If a heterosexual cis-man can be queer because he's a little feminine in his mannerisms and behavior, it means anyone who isn't an absolute stereotype of masculinity or femininity gets roped into queer identity. It doesn't really bug me because I actually am a stereotype on multiple levels but I get why folks like Ceko and DI aren't too keen on it.

In terms of definitions, I don't think the gentleman in question is respecting historical or conventional usage either. "Queer is an umbrella term for sexual and gender minorities who are not heterosexual and cisgender."
Last edited by Fahran on Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:36 pm

Impaled Nazarene wrote:Recently made a purchase of autographed artwork under my new name. Super nervous but I am really excited.

Congratulations! What's got you nervous? It'll all work out quite pleasantly, I imagine.

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