TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Grenartia]

Because we probably all can use a bit of silly fun right now.

FB really lags to the point of non-useability on my computer for some reason.

Take a guess as to what the dominant religion is

The issue is not so much Islam as it is conservatism, which is using Islam as its vehicle of choice.

Honestly, this.

The two have a tendency to go hand in hand.

Because Islam is mostly found in countries with extreme poverty, instability and inequality, thank you for playing.

I'd honestly argue any religion having dominance goes hand in hand with conservatism, as well as poverty, instability, and inequality.

That's not the whole picture, but sure, let's go with that for now.

Shrug. Islam is just like every other religion. When the factors that prevent evolution are omnipresent, then of course it’ll end up being more conservative.

Exactly. There's nothing particularly special about Islam.

[Atheris]

The two have a tendency to go hand in hand.

Because Islam is mostly found in countries with extreme poverty, instability and inequality, thank you for playing.

That's not a fault of Islam. That's the fault of colonization. The Ottoman Empire, for most of its life, was rich, stable, and relatively equal. Not the fault of Islam.

[Kowani]

Because Islam is mostly found in countries with extreme poverty, instability and inequality, thank you for playing.

I'd honestly argue any religion having dominance goes hand in hand with conservatism, as well as poverty, instability, and inequality..

I would be inclined to agree on conservatism and inequality, and possibly instability. I am less certain about the causal relationship between religion and poverty-not because poor areas don’t tend to be religious, but because poverty is what helps keep religion alive.
So I agree with you that they are linked, I am just not certain religion is a causal factor.

Because Islam is mostly found in countries with extreme poverty, instability and inequality, thank you for playing.

That's not a fault of Islam. That's the fault of colonization.

Well, that’s part of it, sure, but the general dearth of natural resources is another large factor.

The Ottoman Empire, for most of its life, was rich, stable, and relatively equal. Not the fault of Islam.

This seems to be slightly less true.

[VVerkia]

So I was on TikTok and I keep seeing people saying that not wanting to date a trans person simply because of the fact that they are trans is transphobic. Some people may want biological children or are uncomfortable with certain genitalia. What are your guy's thoughts on this?

I wrote about it some time ago

[Atheris]

So I was on TikTok and I keep seeing people saying that not wanting to date a trans person simply because of the fact that they are trans is transphobic. Some people may want biological children or are uncomfortable with certain genitalia. What are your guy's thoughts on this?

Depends on the context.

Do they not want to date a trans person because they want kids or are uncomfortable with a set of genitals, or do they not want to date a trans person solely because they're trans?

Context is key.

[Grenartia]

I'd honestly argue any religion having dominance goes hand in hand with conservatism, as well as poverty, instability, and inequality..

I would be inclined to agree on conservatism and inequality, and possibly instability. I am less certain about the causal relationship between religion and poverty-not because poor areas don’t tend to be religious, but because poverty is what helps keep religion alive.
So I agree with you that they are linked, I am just not certain religion is a causal factor.

I think I didn't word it correctly. My point is that conservatism brings about poverty, instability, and inequality.

So I was on TikTok and I keep seeing people saying that not wanting to date a trans person simply because of the fact that they are trans is transphobic. Some people may want biological children or are uncomfortable with certain genitalia. What are your guy's thoughts on this?

Depends on the context.

Do they not want to date a trans person because they want kids or are uncomfortable with a set of genitals, or do they not want to date a trans person solely because they're trans?

Context is key.

Basically, this.

[Dumb Ideologies]

So I was on TikTok

Well there's your problem ´꒳`

and I keep seeing people saying that not wanting to date a trans person simply because of the fact that they are trans is transphobic. Some people may want biological children or are uncomfortable with certain genitalia. What are your guy's thoughts on this?

My thoughts are that it's bullshit, but avoiding that on social media is a bullet hell game.

[Vassenor]

That there is a wildly different perception of trans men and trans women under GenderCrit ideology reveals the biological essentialism of their position; and to contrast the two views also highlights how absurdly conflicted they are.

To them, trans men are to be pitied - the are victims of patriarchal ideology that so demonises the female form that they believe the only escape is to become a man. They're victimised; seen as confused young lesbians who must be rescued. They're weak, they're vulnerable.

They're giving up on their chance of fertility, these poor women, and giving up the chance to experience motherhood (but woe betide them if they do actually give birth as trans men - they become impossible for gender critical ideologues to comprehend)

But to these same GC ideologues, trans women are aggressive, predatory - they're colonisers. Invaders into the sacred women's space of wombynhood. There can surely be no other reason for wanting to be a woman? Why would anyone want to be a woman, when it's so hard?

There must, reason the Gender Criticals, be some agenda behind this. It's impossible that anyone feels comfortable being a woman, being subjected to sexism. It MUST be a fetish. No other explanation. After all, aren't all men aggressive and predatory?


Side by side the positions are clearly untenable.

Firstly, this relies on the outdated notion that women are inherently weak and vulnerable and men are inherently violent and predatory. This is neither radical, not is it feminism; it's old fashioned sexism.

Secondly there's a logical failure here.

How is womanhood so terrible that trans men seek to "escape" it, but so sacred that trans women seek to "colonise" it?

It goes beyond a mere gatekeeping of people's desires and needs and identities.

Transphobia, and the Gender Critical Ideology, are both deeply rooted in the same basic sexism borne of biological essentialism.

So that's a pretty good critique of the problems behind the GC ideology.

[Auzkhia]

That there is a wildly different perception of trans men and trans women under GenderCrit ideology reveals the biological essentialism of their position; and to contrast the two views also highlights how absurdly conflicted they are.

To them, trans men are to be pitied - the are victims of patriarchal ideology that so demonises the female form that they believe the only escape is to become a man. They're victimised; seen as confused young lesbians who must be rescued. They're weak, they're vulnerable.

They're giving up on their chance of fertility, these poor women, and giving up the chance to experience motherhood (but woe betide them if they do actually give birth as trans men - they become impossible for gender critical ideologues to comprehend)

But to these same GC ideologues, trans women are aggressive, predatory - they're colonisers. Invaders into the sacred women's space of wombynhood. There can surely be no other reason for wanting to be a woman? Why would anyone want to be a woman, when it's so hard?

There must, reason the Gender Criticals, be some agenda behind this. It's impossible that anyone feels comfortable being a woman, being subjected to sexism. It MUST be a fetish. No other explanation. After all, aren't all men aggressive and predatory?


Side by side the positions are clearly untenable.

Firstly, this relies on the outdated notion that women are inherently weak and vulnerable and men are inherently violent and predatory. This is neither radical, not is it feminism; it's old fashioned sexism.

Secondly there's a logical failure here.

How is womanhood so terrible that trans men seek to "escape" it, but so sacred that trans women seek to "colonise" it?

It goes beyond a mere gatekeeping of people's desires and needs and identities.

Transphobia, and the Gender Critical Ideology, are both deeply rooted in the same basic sexism borne of biological essentialism.

So that's a pretty good critique of the problems behind the GC ideology.

TERFs: Doing the patriarchy's work and calling it feminism.

One facet of transmisogyny is basically "Why would you want to be a woman when being a woman is bad?" and it's even more coconuts when the best case for trans women is being treated like cis women.

And transmisandry? (transphobia directed at trans men and trans masc people) is indeed pity and toxic masculinity because it's about who is and is not a Real Man™

[Kowani]

I would be inclined to agree on conservatism and inequality, and possibly instability. I am less certain about the causal relationship between religion and poverty-not because poor areas don’t tend to be religious, but because poverty is what helps keep religion alive.
So I agree with you that they are linked, I am just not certain religion is a causal factor.

I think I didn't word it correctly. My point is that conservatism brings about poverty, instability, and inequality.

Ahhh.
Uhhh…kinda?
It’s a mutually symbiotic relationship.

[Grenartia]

TERFs: Doing the patriarchy's work and calling it feminism.

Yeah. If you view women as nothing more than walking vaginas, you're probably a sexist.

I think I didn't word it correctly. My point is that conservatism brings about poverty, instability, and inequality.

Ahhh.
Uhhh…kinda?
It’s a mutually symbiotic relationship.

I'll agree with that.

[The Reformed American Republic]

TERFs: Doing the patriarchy's work and calling it feminism.

I don't know about that. Some of the TERFs I encountered on this very site unironically hated men. Chess was one of them.

[Agarntrop]

So I was on TikTok and I keep seeing people saying that not wanting to date a trans person simply because of the fact that they are trans is transphobic. Some people may want biological children or are uncomfortable with certain genitalia. What are your guy's thoughts on this?

Depends on the context.

Do they not want to date a trans person because they want kids or are uncomfortable with a set of genitals, or do they not want to date a trans person solely because they're trans?

Context is key.

Yes ^

Not being sexually attracted to a person who isn't clearly masculine or feminine due to such person being exclusively attracted to masculine or feminine features (or, in the case of bisexuals, exclusively both) isn't transphobic, as sexual attraction isn't a conscious choice.

However choosing to refuse to date someone solely because theyre trans is transphobic, yes.

[Atheris]

Depends on the context.

Do they not want to date a trans person because they want kids or are uncomfortable with a set of genitals, or do they not want to date a trans person solely because they're trans?

Context is key.

Yes ^

Not being sexually attracted to a person who isn't clearly masculine or feminine due to such person being exclusively attracted to masculine or feminine features (or, in the case of bisexuals, exclusively both) isn't transphobic, as sexual attraction isn't a conscious choice.

However choosing to refuse to date someone solely because theyre trans is transphobic, yes.

Alternatively, you just may not want to date someone. Like me!

[South Odreria 2]

Depends on the context.

Do they not want to date a trans person because they want kids or are uncomfortable with a set of genitals, or do they not want to date a trans person solely because they're trans?

Context is key.

Yes ^

Not being sexually attracted to a person who isn't clearly masculine or feminine due to such person being exclusively attracted to masculine or feminine features (or, in the case of bisexuals, exclusively both) isn't transphobic, as sexual attraction isn't a conscious choice.

However choosing to refuse to date someone solely because theyre trans is transphobic, yes.

I thought sexuality was innate

[Atheris]

Yes ^

Not being sexually attracted to a person who isn't clearly masculine or feminine due to such person being exclusively attracted to masculine or feminine features (or, in the case of bisexuals, exclusively both) isn't transphobic, as sexual attraction isn't a conscious choice.

However choosing to refuse to date someone solely because theyre trans is transphobic, yes.

I thought sexuality was innate

Sexual orientation is. Sexual orientation identity isn't.

[South Odreria 2]

I thought sexuality was innate

Sexual orientation is. Sexual orientation identity isn't.

Sure, but as far as I can tell that’s not related to what Agarn said?

[Grenartia]

TERFs: Doing the patriarchy's work and calling it feminism.

I don't know about that. Some of the TERFs I encountered on this very site unironically hated men. Chess was one of them.

And yet, the most hardcore TERFs align themselves with the interests of the very patriarchy which they oppose. Like how a lot of them took money from the anti-abortion Heritage Foundation, and have since been strangely silent about anti-abortion efforts in the US.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I don't know about that. Some of the TERFs I encountered on this very site unironically hated men. Chess was one of them.

And yet, the most hardcore TERFs align themselves with the interests of the very patriarchy which they oppose. Like how a lot of them took money from the anti-abortion Heritage Foundation, and have since been strangely silent about anti-abortion efforts in the US.

Opposing abortion has less to do with patriarchy and more to do with the belief that a fetus is a person and thus should not be killed. Politics also tends to create strange bedfellows. There were liberal democrats who allied with the deposed Pol Pot in Cambodia to oppose the new Vietnam backed regime there, despite the fact that they did not share ideological similarity for example. I think their alliance with Conservatives is one of convenience.

[Liriena]

So I was on TikTok

Well there's your problem ´꒳`

and I keep seeing people saying that not wanting to date a trans person simply because of the fact that they are trans is transphobic. Some people may want biological children or are uncomfortable with certain genitalia. What are your guy's thoughts on this?

My thoughts are that it's bullshit, but avoiding that on social media is a bullet hell game.

I mean, if we put a very fine comb through it, there is a legitimate argument to be made that some dating preferences can be rooted in bigotry, rather than something intrinsic to the person, though that doesn't necessarily make having those preferences a moral failing. It kind of boils down to the hows and whys of those preferences. It's one thing to just not being able to feel sexual attraction to someone with a penis, regardless of its context, function or physiology. It's another to reject a trans person because you associate them being trans with "trickery" or as something that puts your own sexual orientation to question.

I think the same is valid when we talk about dating preferences when it comes to, say, race. There's a difference between preferring to date people of certain races simply because you're physically attracted to dark skin tones and dark eye colours and dark hair, and dating people of certain races because you consciously or subconsciously associate their race with certain stereotypes and prejudices.

The same distinction applies to "positive" dating preferences like, for example, weebs who fetishize and seek out East Asian women because they associate their race with certain stereotypes and prejudices.

[Grenartia]

And yet, the most hardcore TERFs align themselves with the interests of the very patriarchy which they oppose. Like how a lot of them took money from the anti-abortion Heritage Foundation, and have since been strangely silent about anti-abortion efforts in the US.

Opposing abortion has less to do with patriarchy and more to do with the belief that a fetus is a person and thus should not be killed.

That is the conservative perspective, yes. However, the feminist perspective (and consequently, the TERF one as well) is that opposition to abortion is used to permanently tie women to the men that impregnated them in the first place, and is thus, the patriarchy at work.

I do not want to threadjack this into an abortion debate, but it is important to prove TERFs are hypocrites by highlighting this specific issue.

Politics also tends to create strange bedfellows. There were liberal democrats who allied with the deposed Pol Pot in Cambodia to oppose the new Vietnam backed regime there, despite the fact that they did not share ideological similarity for example. I think their alliance with Conservatives is one of convenience.

Sure, and that's probably what they'll say in response to these allegations. However, that's the problem with alliances of convenience, especially when there's a mismatch of political power between the groups in the alliance of convenience, is that the weaker one risks becoming utterly and helplessly subservient to the stronger one.

[Proctopeo]

Well there's your problem ´꒳`



My thoughts are that it's bullshit, but avoiding that on social media is a bullet hell game.

I mean, if we put a very fine comb through it, there is a legitimate argument to be made that some dating preferences can be rooted in bigotry, rather than something intrinsic to the person, though that doesn't necessarily make having those preferences a moral failing. It kind of boils down to the hows and whys of those preferences. It's one thing to just not being able to feel sexual attraction to someone with a penis, regardless of its context, function or physiology. It's another to reject a trans person because you associate them being trans with "trickery" or as something that puts your own sexual orientation to question.

That's a very important distinction to make, especially since I've seen people (usually trans) conflate the two, which always comes off as a bit rapey.
Some people, very legitimately, aren't into one thing or the other, even if physical preferences are otherwise met.

And, of course, sometimes it has nothing to do with genitals, or appearance, or being trans, and it's just that they're awful as people and the only fish in the sea that they're interested in would prefer to stay far away from them. "I don't like dick, sorry" is a bit nicer than "you're agonizingly horrible in every way imaginable, and even being around you makes me feel like my soul is dying a slow, painful death", innit? This is ofc referring to the ones who conflate the two (seemingly on purpose), as they usually come off as vile.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I do not want to threadjack this into an abortion debate...

Don't worry, I'm stopping now. I'm not even trying to argue a pro-life position btw.

[Grenartia]

I do not want to threadjack this into an abortion debate...

Don't worry, I'm stopping now. I'm not even trying to argue a pro-life position btw.

I didn't think you were, but I know from a decade of prior experience on NSG that even the slightest mention of the topic will cause a threadjack about it (a lot of times from someone wandering into the thread, seeing it, and having to put their 2 cents in on the subject, even if its not relevant to the thread), and I wanted to try and pre-emptively nip that in the bud.

[Auzkhia]

TERFs: Doing the patriarchy's work and calling it feminism.

I don't know about that. Some of the TERFs I encountered on this very site unironically hated men. Chess was one of them.

TERFs allied and worked with social conservatives on bathroom bills in the US, and are trying to do the same in the UK. Though it seems unlikely that anti-trans radical feminists and born again Christians would team up, they both have similar perceptions on gender. Cultural feminism and complementarianism both have roles for men and women. Though the terfs claim they want women's empowerment and liberation, however anti-feminist christians say that "Biblical" gender roles for women is women's freedom. Either way, they believe that women have essential traits and roles, and transsexuality does challenge that a bit.