TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Cekoviu]

Sexual dimorphism, the biological immutability of sexualities that necessitate a gender binary (heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality), cross-sex brain anatomy, difference levels of different hormones in men and women giving rise to different characteristics and physiology recognisable at a glance.

Yeah, forget all that noise. Smash the binary. There are 76 genders. Manhood and womanhood are social constructs.

I don't understand the notion that there are 76 genders... how can there be such diversity? How can someone be so unique in their gender that there are 76? If there were to be more than two genders, I'd assume at maximum 6, Male, Female, Transmale, Transfemale, Nonbinary and perhaps another. I don't see how you can get more specific than that

trans male/trans female aren't different genders from male and female

[Necroghastia]

Fucking conservatives and their...
*squinting at notes*
centuries of established science!

Sexual dimorphism,

Humans really aren't that sexually dimorphic.

the biological immutability of sexualities that necessitate a gender binary (heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality),

Except they don't.

cross-sex brain anatomy,

Which hasn't been studied in NB people AFAIK.

difference levels of different hormones in men and women giving rise to different characteristics and physiology recognisable at a glance.

Irrelevant.

Yeah, forget all that noise. Smash the binary. There are 76 genders. Manhood and womanhood are social constructs.

Fuck yeah, now you get it.

[Crockerland]

Sexual dimorphism, the biological immutability of sexualities that necessitate a gender binary (heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality), cross-sex brain anatomy, difference levels of different hormones in men and women giving rise to different characteristics and physiology recognisable at a glance.

Yeah, forget all that noise. Smash the binary. There are 76 genders. Manhood and womanhood are social constructs.

I don't understand the notion that there are 76 genders... how can there be such diversity? How can someone be so unique in their gender that there are 76? If there were to be more than two genders, I'd assume at maximum 6, Male, Female, Transmale, Transfemale, Nonbinary and perhaps another. I don't see how you can get more specific than that

Wokeness is a path to many abilities.

Presumably, nonbinary would be a category which encompasses some 74 magical mystery genders, rather than a single gender on its own.

[Kowani]

Sexual dimorphism, the biological immutability of sexualities that necessitate a gender binary (heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality), cross-sex brain anatomy, difference levels of different hormones in men and women giving rise to different characteristics and physiology recognisable at a glance.

Yeah, forget all that noise. Smash the binary. There are 76 genders. Manhood and womanhood are social constructs.

I don't understand the notion that there are 76 genders... how can there be such diversity? How can someone be so unique in their gender that there are 76? If there were to be more than two genders, I'd assume at maximum 6, Male, Female, Transmale, Transfemale, Nonbinary and perhaps another. I don't see how you can get more specific than that

What do you think gender is?

[Paleoconservative Citizens]

I don't understand the notion that there are 76 genders... how can there be such diversity? How can someone be so unique in their gender that there are 76? If there were to be more than two genders, I'd assume at maximum 6, Male, Female, Transmale, Transfemale, Nonbinary and perhaps another. I don't see how you can get more specific than that

trans male/trans female aren't different genders from male and female

By that logic there's still only 3 Genders, one being "nonbinary".

[Paleoconservative Citizens]

I don't understand the notion that there are 76 genders... how can there be such diversity? How can someone be so unique in their gender that there are 76? If there were to be more than two genders, I'd assume at maximum 6, Male, Female, Transmale, Transfemale, Nonbinary and perhaps another. I don't see how you can get more specific than that

Wokeness is a path to many abilities.

Presumably, nonbinary would be a category which encompasses some 74 magical mystery genders, rather than a single gender on its own.

I still don't see how even nonbinary can have so many different variations

I don't understand the notion that there are 76 genders... how can there be such diversity? How can someone be so unique in their gender that there are 76? If there were to be more than two genders, I'd assume at maximum 6, Male, Female, Transmale, Transfemale, Nonbinary and perhaps another. I don't see how you can get more specific than that

What do you think gender is?

I equate Sex and Gender, but I am aware you're gonna tell me that gender is a social construct, that gender =/= sex, etc.

[Liriena]

trans male/trans female aren't different genders from male and female

By that logic there's still only 3 Genders, one being "nonbinary".

Progress.

[Cekoviu]

trans male/trans female aren't different genders from male and female

By that logic there's still only 3 Genders, one being "nonbinary".

more or less, insofar as someone defines a gender as a particular range of positions within the gender spectrum

[Paleoconservative Citizens]

By that logic there's still only 3 Genders, one being "nonbinary".

Progress.

Hold up there. This is theoretical, I still hold to 2 Genders, and nonbinary, well, they're still technically one of the two.

[Necroghastia]

Wokeness is a path to many abilities.

Presumably, nonbinary would be a category which encompasses some 74 magical mystery genders, rather than a single gender on its own.

I still don't see how even nonbinary can have so many different variations

What's so confusing about it?

What do you think gender is?

I equate Sex and Gender, but I am aware you're gonna tell me that gender is a social construct, that gender =/= sex, etc.

Well, what reason is there to equate them in the first place?

[Proctopeo]

You didn't link an article.

No one ought to need an article to know there are two genders, though.

Anti-intellectual arrogance is so cool.

You're literally making the same argument as flat-earthers.

It's not really anti-intellectualism because it's not an intellectual stance, but a political one.

Raise your hand if you've never felt personally invalidated as an LGB person by the existence of people who identify as neither men nor women.

I've seen people say that bisexuality "doesn't exist"/"isn't valid"/"is exclusionary" with that being used as their logic. At least that's less rapey than some of the BS that gays and lesbians have to deal with.

I'm literally subscribed to Blaire White

Well, duh. Transmedicalists need transmedicalist propagandists to reinforce their beliefs, after all.

As opposed to anti-transmeds, who need anti-transmed propagandists and cult leaders

[Crockerland]

Wokeness is a path to many abilities.

Presumably, nonbinary would be a category which encompasses some 74 magical mystery genders, rather than a single gender on its own.

I still don't see how even nonbinary can have so many different variations

Oftentimes for these lists they will redundantly count synonyms of the same basic concept.

For example looking at the Telegraph's list of 71 gender options they include "Cisgender Female, Cis Woman, Cisgender Woman, MTF, Trans Woman, Trans* Woman, Transgender Female, Transgender Woman, Transsexual Female, Transsexual Woman, M2F, Male to female trans woman, Male to female transgender woman, Male to female transsexual woman, T* Woman, and Woman" all of which are essentially the same gender (Woman) but with minor variations, mostly just variations in spelling.

[Hediacrana]

I found myself in a Rowling-inspired debate where someone talked about a British guy bringing the UK government to court because he had not been given a second opinion to warn him against gender affirming surgery as a young teen. As far as I'm aware, trans rights groups don't ask for anything more extreme than puberty blockers for teenagers, so I'm sceptical. Is anyone familiar with this specific case?

[Kowani]

Wokeness is a path to many abilities.

Presumably, nonbinary would be a category which encompasses some 74 magical mystery genders, rather than a single gender on its own.

I still don't see how even nonbinary can have so many different variations

What do you think gender is?

I equate Sex and Gender, but I am aware you're gonna tell me that gender is a social construct, that gender =/= sex, etc.

Actually, I was going to say that sex is not gender, because sex reflects biology and gender is an individual mental concept.
You can make an argument that what is a socially recognized gender is a social construct, but I think that obscures the point.

[Purgatio]

Sexual dimorphism,

Humans really aren't that sexually dimorphic.

the biological immutability of sexualities that necessitate a gender binary (heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality),

Except they don't.

cross-sex brain anatomy,

Which hasn't been studied in NB people AFAIK.

difference levels of different hormones in men and women giving rise to different characteristics and physiology recognisable at a glance.

Irrelevant.

Yeah, forget all that noise. Smash the binary. There are 76 genders. Manhood and womanhood are social constructs.

Fuck yeah, now you get it.

I mean, a lot of this just confuses me, but the biggest is your claim that biologically-ingrained heterosexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality don't necessitate a biologically-ingrained gender binary. They clearly do. Heterosexuality means exclusive attraction to the opposite gender, to the exclusion of attraction to the same gender. In other words, a heterosexual man being attracted to women, but not to men. A binary distinction. Homosexuality means exclusive attraction ot the same gender. In other words, a homosexual man being attracted to men, but not to women. A binary distinction. Bisexuality means attraction to both men and women, two genders, both in a gender binary. Each of these sexual orientations are natural and describe the sexualities of the overwhelming majority on the planet. None of these orientations could exist without the gender binary. Thus, the gender binary is itself rooted in natural human biology.

As for disputing sexual dimorphism, or the reality that hormones in men and women contribute to sex characteristics and recognisable physiological distinctions between men and women - no? How is it possible then that trans people can 'transition' into an opposite gendered persona, by altering their appearance, behaviour, and presentation, if that persona isn't recognisable in everyday life, because men and women look inherently distinct and different? And how is it that heterosexuals and homosexuals can instinctively tell if a person looks male or female (and thus is, or is not, attracted to said person) unless being a man and a woman carries a distinct look and appearance that distinguishes one from the other?

Look, if it were really that hard for people to instinctively tell most men apart from most women, just at a glance, owing to the physiological differences involved (arising out of hormonal factors and sexual dimorphism), sexual orientations like homosexuality and heterosexuality would be impossible, transitioning would be impossible, identifying and referring to people as male or female in everyday social interactions would be impossible.

[Neutraligon]

Progress.

Hold up there. This is theoretical, I still hold to 2 Genders, and nonbinary, well, they're still technically one of the two.

I am explicitly not one of the two.

[Neutraligon]

I found myself in a Rowling-inspired debate where someone talked about a British guy bringing the UK government to court because he had not been given a second opinion to warn him against gender affirming surgery as a young teen. As far as I'm aware, trans rights groups don't ask for anything more extreme than puberty blockers for teenagers, so I'm sceptical. Is anyone familiar with this specific case?

There might be some few who support allowing surgery, but most that I have met want blockers so that the individual has time to make the choice, and is more mature mentally when they do so

[Proctopeo]

I found myself in a Rowling-inspired debate where someone talked about a British guy bringing the UK government to court because he had not been given a second opinion to warn him against gender affirming surgery as a young teen. As far as I'm aware, trans rights groups don't ask for anything more extreme than puberty blockers for teenagers, so I'm sceptical. Is anyone familiar with this specific case?

There might be some few who support allowing surgery, but most that I have met want blockers so that the individual has time to make the choice, and is more mature mentally when they do so

Puberty blockers do kinda fuck up your growth in general, so they could possibly be referring to that.

[Cekoviu]

There might be some few who support allowing surgery, but most that I have met want blockers so that the individual has time to make the choice, and is more mature mentally when they do so

Puberty blockers do kinda fuck up your growth in general, so they could possibly be referring to that.

an effect which is largely mitigated by hormone treatment, as i understand.

[Neutraligon]

There might be some few who support allowing surgery, but most that I have met want blockers so that the individual has time to make the choice, and is more mature mentally when they do so

Puberty blockers do kinda fuck up your growth in general, so they could possibly be referring to that.

I do not recall them permanently stunting you after you go off them. Do you mind connecting me to a study that shows they do?

[Proctopeo]

Puberty blockers do kinda fuck up your growth in general, so they could possibly be referring to that.

an effect which is largely mitigated by hormone treatment, as i understand.

You can't force the whole of puberty by introducing hormones, though you can get much of it.

Puberty blockers do kinda fuck up your growth in general, so they could possibly be referring to that.

I do not recall them permanently stunting you after you go off them. Do you mind connecting me to a study that shows they do?

I don't recall saying "permanently stunting". With hormone treatment, at least some parts of puberty can be activated. But it's still a big risk, especially since it appears that 70-90 percent of cases don't persist into adulthood. It's of course a controversial field of research, so statistics on this are rather... lacking.

However! This abstract mentions that a similar set of statistics is to be found in the WPATH Standards of Care, the PDF of which I will look through later.

[Purgatio]

I've seen people say that bisexuality "doesn't exist"/"isn't valid"/"is exclusionary" with that being used as their logic. At least that's less rapey than some of the BS that gays and lesbians have to deal with.

I've had bisexual friends harassed and attacked verbally by the NB crowd online, claiming that bisexuality is NB-phobic and anyone who is only attracted to men and women, rather than pansexual, has been brainwashed by an NB-phobic society into believing the normativity of the gender binary....rather than, you know, said person just genuinely being biologically inclined to find people who present as men, and people who present as women, physically attractive.

And you're absolutely right that because of this more 'woke', 'progressive' crowd, the LGBT activist circle is becoming increasingly hostile to gay men and lesbian women who don't conform our ideals and our beliefs precisely to everything the 'woke police' demands us to believe. That the gender binary is a social construct. That there are 76/100/1000 genders out there. That its possible to be a non-binary gay/lesbian. That its NB-phobic for a gay man not to be attracted to a masculine NB, or for a lesbian woman not to be attracted to be a feminine NB.

At the end of the day, the logic of the 'smash the binary' NB crowd, and their beliefs in the socially-constructed, artificial, and non-existent character of the gender binary, if those arguments are taken to their logical conclusion, must in fact necessitate both the deconstruction of the gender binary itself as invalid, and by extension, the invalidation of every sexual orientation out there which can only exist by virtue of the gender binary. It is nothing less than the erasure of gay men, lesbian women, and bisexuals, perpetrated by recent additions into our LGBT+ community whose logic, arguments, and worldview necessitates such erasure in order to exist and be valid and legitimated. In essence, as a gay man, I'm being asked to willingly open the floodgates to a progressive, modern version of gender ideology so that my own community, the activist groups who are supposed to be on my side and fight for me and other LGBT people, can be sinisterly co-opted by these fringe gender radicals to perpetrate the erasure and eradication of my very identity, personhood, and individuality.

[VVerkia]

And because sexual orientation is permanent and enduring and immutable, my sexuality as a gay man, your sexuality as a bisexual man, those are also essential aspects of our self and personhood. You could not erase or suppress those sexualities without erasing or eradicaing a core part of who we are as people. Biological essentialism allows us to draw this distinction.

I think, that yes - these things are essential, but what isn't - recognizing it. For most part of my life, i wasn't thinking of sexuality, orientation etc. I mostly repressing it due to my trans circumstances and blocking truth of my sexuality. Due to this, i was thinking, that if i want, or need be with someone, that it must be female. I wasn't understand what sexual desire is and why other feel sexual attractions to each other. I wasn't understand all of that "what a "hot" person someone is". Last summer i finally found description of demisexuality and then i understand, that it matched with me and that pov of sexuality describe my way the most. However from romantic pov it is slightly different. First i was romanticaly, platonicaly attracted to other girl in school time. It last 3 years when i give up, but i found, that somehove i was a little envy of how he looks. After that i was attracted to other girl, but her personality was something i was attracted. Then i was dating girl, for the sake of dating and wanting to understand what it mean, but i couldn't. Faking some of "boyfriend attitude". From that time i was mostly myself in traveling. Finally i don't understood what it means to be bf. During study time i meet more peoples, i was less socially awkward, I meet some peoples that i potentially could be with, and finally i dated with one girl with nice personality (even when we have some little troubles with relationship) and we married. It was over, when i can't stand more lying to myself, to her and we divorced. After 2 years from first talking to her and after 1 year after divorce, i was "releasee" that fact, that we aren't married. It was only friend-marriage, however i remember that years as nice. Then i was starting to be open to another relation. After few weeks i started to chat with other trans female, and i was slowly falling in some kind of love. I screw up. I tell so many "sorry" and don't ever tell about my feelings. Then i fall in love in nb, when i also screw up. In that point i realise, that i'm panromantic, because i don't care about someone sex or gender, but person itself, and personality i find most attractive (not looks, or other things), but also, that personality itself isn't something i fall in love, but it only "navigate me" just as for "standard orientations" it is sex, gender or appearance. So it was long road to understand it.

As for understanding my "gender" or psychological sex, in first years of life i wasn't thinking of it, i don't identify myself because i just think of books, toys, cartoons etc. Then i started to realizing that something is wrong. It was slightly correlated to gender roles, and i can say only that it can be only described as symptoms. First time when i was scared and stared feeling, that i can not tell anyone, however i also feel need to tell someone, and didn't tell, was dream, when all peoples are girl, but i'm not. Don't remember in which class it was. I don't consider myself and identify myself as boy, male or something. Main point when i really started to worry was, when i learn about biological differences between men and women. It was only pictures of anatomy, but i was so sceptic (i don't was really think that there are differences - i was thinking like, that all are somehow same in that kind of elements, but it wasn't really thinks or thoughts. I just don't think about it earlier and just see no differences), that then i wait to see that difference in some movie "after midnight". I saw differenc and as fast as i can, i turned tv off, and go back to sleep, afraid to wake up parents. At least i understood "biological difference" and my sceptic mind accept that my body look like it look, and not in other way. Probably it was moment, when my dysphoria started to elevate. Before, that dysphoria was "little" and concentrated on little things like envy of girl dress during some school event, and not really about gender roles, because in my home, i feel somehow, like that roles isn't teached, so i was in my own. These roles however was present in parents and grandparents way of life. Even then, i still was on my own, mostly diving in books or pc. From that time i feel lack of "traditional female gender roles" teaching from them, like cooking or sewing. I was remember only few times like that. In the end, in terms of "roles" i feel like "no-one". In terms of hobbies, like in beetwen, in term of psychic and preferences - feminine, in term of bahaviour - like between female and "no-one", In term of skill - "no-one", in term of appearance - transfemale, in term of mind, soul, identity - female, in term of sexual roles - female, that can't realize beeing female, mother, wife.
Maybe due to that history, i have no problem with differ hobbies, gender roles, behaviour etc. etc. as something that isn't 100% correlated to sexuality, gender identity. If someone can judge me by them, then someone can say, that i have affiliation to be rised as rather standard, traditional girl, with tendency to be like that, but i don't judge that someone who can be described by them, must be that or other gender (that's why boyish girl and feminine boys can exist). I judge myself as female, because i feel myself as being female, not male, not nb, not any other lgbt ways. And from my pov it's something behind all of that "parameters". And somehow i feel that i can't realize myself, my life, as not-female. It can be said, that someone can realize ownself in anyway, despise own sexuality. It can be true, but maybe that is core of gender dysphoria? That someone is trapped in wrong kind of body and it is obstacle that some can accept and some can't. From cis pov it can look like abstraction. You know. I was trying to "realize" myself. I was traveling, learning, struggling with living in society despite my awkwardness, reading, watching, playing, trying to make relations, trying to live, but in the end it doesn't even matter. I was doing it as "someone who isn't seen as me by others". But even when i do something as "me", when i wrote as I-female, when i taking hormones, even when i was thinking about operations, i think about it as something necessary, but not something that can erase, that i can't realize myself. It's only half measures. Someone can say - than why you do it. Why you decide to go that way? As usual for me, that is multiple reasons. I rarely prioritize them by quality in anything. First, since years i was struggling with myself in inefficient battle between "i MUST" rooted in fear and repressed myself. I was living hiding myself, my problems with me. I was fear that i will not be accepted, but also i don't crave for acceptance. I fear that i hurt others, that i hurt their feeling, their vision of me, my future, that they visualise. Then i realize, that i hurt them in either way. And i hurt myself and them when i just don't be true with trans topic. Second, i see there some kind of light in darkness. That finally i can live at least for some time as "myself", not as fake one. Even when i could meet with transphobia, dealing with hrt for long time, cost of operation, lost relations, lost everyone, lost my life during operation or earlier. 3 I realized, that i can rebuild some part of life from scratch and stop being human trash. That i can stand as myself and help other in some way. 4 Felt that better was dying at least trying, and not hiding truth. Earlier i was afraid that much, that i was wanting keep it to grave. 5 I stop hoping, that i could reborn as girl if i only endure in fake live struggling with hiding,

Hence, hormones or HRT are used specifically so a biological male, for example, can acquire some of the common psychological attributes and characteristics of most women out there, through the injection of estrogen, therefore becoming more likely to 'pass' as, or present as, a woman in her everyday lived experience.

I don't feel that i acquire some psychological attributes or characteristics that i haven't had due to hrt. What i recognized, that in last autumn, winter, my emotions was very unstable, but i recognize it as part of relationship problems not hrt, however then i was thinking, that hrt was responsible.

Without gender dysphoria, a trans person has no reason to 'transition'. I think its terrible to suggest a person can be trans without dysphoria, because it reinforces the transphobic narrative that a trans man or trans woman has no legitimate desire to inhabit a different gender beyond mere novelty or curiousity, or that a trans man or trans woman has somehow confused masculinity and femininity with manhood and womanhood. Gender dysphoria answers and swats away those concerns, but if dysphoria is not a necessary reason for a person to 'transition', then 'transitioning' looks more and more like a fad or trend rather than a legitimate response to a psychological condition.

I don't know perspective of ts person without gd, so i don't elaborate, however i understand that some ts can not decide to transition, or are exhausted at some stage or can have various reasons eg. are nb trans, poor etc.

[Paleoconservative Citizens]

Hold up there. This is theoretical, I still hold to 2 Genders, and nonbinary, well, they're still technically one of the two.

I am explicitly not one of the two.

*Visible Confusion*

[Cekoviu]

I am explicitly not one of the two.

*Visible Confusion*

it's honestly not that confusing if you bother to put a teensy bit of thought into it