TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Dumb Ideologies]

The two genders are 1. newbie NSG posters 2. people who know the difference between an article and a thread.

[VVerkia]

A trans man or woman doesn't transition just because he or she feels like "oh I'm an effeminate biological male" or "oh I'm a pretty masculine biological female",

Exactly - I'm not male. And in term of feminity-masculinity traits i feel, that i can be viewed somwhere in beetween feminity and nongendered traits, because i don't have "full feminity" traits. From masculinity traits i have almost nothing. feminity, masculinity traits doesn't make someone female or male. That's why someone can be described as effeminate male or masculine female, when that person is simply "cis". And also someone is male or female with that traits and also is simply "trans" with need to alter "biological body" to be matched own gender.

they undergo transition precisely because of gender dysphoria, a sense of extreme discomfort and alienation in one of the genders on the gender binary, requiring a transition to the other end of that binary. Its not a simplistic process of self-identification, where you feel you have some traits of masculinity or femininity, you can invent some new identity for it, and voila, that's your gender.

I don't have discomfort about my "female gender". I have extreme discomfort and alienation due to body in which i lived entire life and i don't feel matching that body to my "female gender". I don't need "new identity" whatever it means. Changing body and documents doesn't make new identity. It make me more true with myself. I'm simply me - female.
And i wait to moment when my life in that body end, so i don't ever need to lived in that prison.

[Purgatio]

Very well said.

What was "very well said" about that? He's overgeneralizing nonbinary people and their experiences without presenting anything to back his claims other than his own spite.

I mean, you could go onto the Gender Wiki right now, oftentimes the contributions there are written and edited by non-binary people who identify as such, and literally just read what these people say in describing their own identity. These aren't real genders, they are personality traits that people come up with because they feel a little different from other people (again, everyone does). And to imply that that's the same as the crippling dysphoria suffered by binary trans people, arising out of them being on literally the wrong place of the gender binary (wrong in the sense that it does not cohere with their neurology) is offensive. It implies that a binary trans person identifies as a woman or a man because of simple, frequent, and ubiquitous quirks of personality or just an anxious need to feel different, when that's obviously not the case.

[Stellar Colonies]

The two genders are 1. newbie NSG posters 2. people who know the difference between an article and a thread.

And transitioning is sometimes difficult...

[The Opinions Guy]

Deleted.

[Purgatio]

Lol I'm totally aligned with the TERFs and reactionaries. I mean I've defended the validity of gay and lesbian orientations from unjustified logical attacks waged on the gender binary, which is totally something a cultural reactionary would be interested in doing. And I've done the same for the validity of binary trans men and women, which is totally something a TERF would do.

I feel like more and more labels like 'TERF' are becoming more and more meaningless if someone who defends the validity of trans people's gender identity can get labelled a 'TERF'. C'est la vie.

You're not defending us though. Please, for the love of god, stop claiming you are and actually listen to us.

I'm literally subscribed to Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah, and have watched every single one of their videos, most of which are in-depth descriptions of the gender dysphoria they experience, the feelings they have which motivated them to transition, and also how upset they get at seeing misappropriations and trivialisations of their experience by others, like the 'smash the binary' NB crowd.

[Necroghastia]

What was "very well said" about that? He's overgeneralizing nonbinary people and their experiences without presenting anything to back his claims other than his own spite.

I mean, you could go onto the Gender Wiki right now, oftentimes the contributions there are written and edited by non-binary people who identify as such, and literally just read what these people say in describing their own identity. These aren't real genders, they are personality traits that people come up with because they feel a little different from other people (again, everyone does). And to imply that that's the same as the crippling dysphoria suffered by binary trans people, arising out of them being on literally the wrong place of the gender binary (wrong in the sense that it does not cohere with their neurology) is offensive. It implies that a binary trans person identifies as a woman or a man because of simple, frequent, and ubiquitous quirks of personality or just an anxious need to feel different, when that's obviously not the case.

And again, you're ignoring that a) NB people can and often do have dysphoria and b) doing the exact same thing you accuse NB people of doing - reducing their lived experiences to falsehoods to fit your own narrative. Once a-fucking-gain, I defy you to actually show me where NB people don't also support binary trans people.

[Alcala-Cordel]

You're not defending us though. Please, for the love of god, stop claiming you are and actually listen to us.

I'm literally subscribed to Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah, and have watched every single one of their videos, most of which are in-depth descriptions of the gender dysphoria they experience, the feelings they have which motivated them to transition, and also how upset they get at seeing misappropriations and trivialisations of their experience by others, like the 'smash the binary' NB crowd.

When you subscribed to some YouTube channels so you definitely listen

[Paleoconservative Citizens]

There only are two genders, male and female.

Objectively incorrect. Non-binary people exist. Hence, non-binary genders exist.

No, people who think they're another gender exist, but the underlying reality remains that they are either male or female.

I don't understand. Why is this an issue? Why does it matter whether or not "Non-Binary" and "Asexual" are genders or not? Does it actually affect you? Why do you care what other people identify as? It just doesn't make sense to me.

It matters for a variety of reasons, and I'm on the side of Two genders, but I usually don't bother debating about it.

[BurritoBowl]

If all it takes to invalidate a binary gendered worldview is to have someone exist outside of those parameters, then you do not have a strong argument that gender is finite and biologically defined. All that need be done is to take a look around and see that it has in fact societally evolved outside of those definitions.

What's the alternative to accepting this? Bigotry? Violence?

[Crockerland]

The whole thing. Especially the part where he called out "demigirls," "demiboys," "agender," "bigender," and "genderfluid" people.

You think overgeneralizing entire identities with unsourced quotes and claims is good and valid?

I think it's good for gay people to rebel against being told our identities, which are non-political biological realities innate to our existence, are the same as identities like "demigirl" or "bigender."

Pretty much the same thing as a trans person being told a "transracial" person is equivalent to them.

[Necroghastia]

You're not defending us though. Please, for the love of god, stop claiming you are and actually listen to us.

I'm literally subscribed to Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah, and have watched every single one of their videos, most of which are in-depth descriptions of the gender dysphoria they experience, the feelings they have which motivated them to transition, and also how upset they get at seeing misappropriations and trivialisations of their experience by others, like the 'smash the binary' NB crowd.

Why do I get the feeling that these people manufacture their outrage the same way other bigots do...? Couldn't possibly be because there's not actually any "trivialization" going on, no sirree...

[Purgatio]

Pretending their identities are equivalent to those of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans people (FtM/MtF), and asexuals is definitely worth calling out.

Why?

Because its not? Because as a gay man I haven't been tricked and brainwashed by a cisnormative society into thinking the categories of 'male' and 'female' exist, such that I'm very attracted to one and totally unattracted to the other? Rather, my distinct sexual and physical reactions to people who present as men, and people who present as women, is rooted in my biologically-determined sexual orientation.

And when people come along and start coming up with quirky identities that necessarily invalidates the gender binary upon which the legitimacy of my entire sexual orientation literally rests, the legitimacy of my identity as a gay man, by pretending that 'male' and 'female' aren't distinct and separate gendered categories (for instance, by claiming you can be legitimately 'bigender' or both at the same time, a claim that directly attacks the legitimacy of my orientation which necessitates distinct, divergent sexual attraction to one gender versus the other), but socially-constructed and therefore susceptible to change by the simple creation of new gender identities that are really just personality traits.

Non-binary people don't have an experience that is the same as gay men, lesbian women, bisexuals, and dysphoric binary trans people. They've created identities which they call gender, and if we accept those claims, logically, each of these preceding four identities becomes invalidated and delegitimised in the process.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Objectively incorrect. Non-binary people exist. Hence, non-binary genders exist.

No, people who think they're another gender exist, but the underlying reality remains that they are either male or female.

I don't understand. Why is this an issue? Why does it matter whether or not "Non-Binary" and "Asexual" are genders or not? Does it actually affect you? Why do you care what other people identify as? It just doesn't make sense to me.

It matters for a variety of reasons, and I'm on the side of Two genders, but I usually don't bother debating about it.

Just gonna paste something I wrote earlier that addresses this


Gender, as described by the WHO, "refers to the roles, behaviours, activities, attributes and opportunities that any society considers appropriate for girls and boys, and women and men". Now, I do know that it refers to the biological sexes (of which there are two), but not everyone fits into standard gender roles. It's a social construct, not biology, and not everyone will fit in to group A or group B. It's an issue of sociology, not biology.

Gender isn't biological sex.

[Necroghastia]

You think overgeneralizing entire identities with unsourced quotes and claims is good and valid?

I think it's good for gay people to rebel against being told our identities, which are non-political biological realities innate to our existence, are the same as identities like "demigirl" or "bigender."

Pretty much the same thing as a trans person being told a "transracial" person is equivalent to them.

I fail to see how [gender] and [gender] are the same kind of comparison as [gender] and [race].

[Crockerland]

I think it's good for gay people to rebel against being told our identities, which are non-political biological realities innate to our existence, are the same as identities like "demigirl" or "bigender."

Pretty much the same thing as a trans person being told a "transracial" person is equivalent to them.

I fail to see how [gender] and [gender] are the same kind of comparison as [gender] and [race].

"Gay" is a gender now?

Ah well, that's not any more far-fetched than the average claim about gender in this thread.

[Paleoconservative Citizens]

If all it takes to invalidate a binary gendered worldview is to have someone exist outside of those parameters, then you do not have a strong argument that gender is finite and biologically defined. All that need be done is to take a look around and see that it has in fact societally evolved outside of those definitions.

What's the alternative to accepting this? Bigotry? Violence?

That's not all it takes at all, no one exists outside those parameters, they may think they do, but they don't. I can declare myself the modern reincarnation of a dinosaur, it doesn't change the fact I'm a human. I could even get surgery to make myself look like a dinosaur- but I'm still human.

[Dumb Ideologies]

You think overgeneralizing entire identities with unsourced quotes and claims is good and valid?

I think it's good for gay people to rebel against being told our identities, which are non-political biological realities innate to our existence, are the same as identities like "demigirl" or "bigender."

Pretty much the same thing as a trans person being told a "transracial" person is equivalent to them.

Plenty of transwomen and transmen are uncomfortable with their identities and struggles being equated with people who don't have dysphoria, change their overly-long identity term daily and are only in it for "euphoria", which is frequently a code word for "fetish".

[Alcala-Cordel]

I think it's good for gay people to rebel against being told our identities, which are non-political biological realities innate to our existence, are the same as identities like "demigirl" or "bigender."

Pretty much the same thing as a trans person being told a "transracial" person is equivalent to them.

I fail to see how [gender] and [gender] are the same kind of comparison as [gender] and [race].

They've mixed up gender and biological sex

If all it takes to invalidate a binary gendered worldview is to have someone exist outside of those parameters, then you do not have a strong argument that gender is finite and biologically defined. All that need be done is to take a look around and see that it has in fact societally evolved outside of those definitions.

What's the alternative to accepting this? Bigotry? Violence?

That's not all it takes at all, no one exists outside those parameters, they may think they do, but they don't. I can declare myself the modern reincarnation of a dinosaur, it doesn't change the fact I'm a human. I could even get surgery to make myself look like a dinosaur- but I'm still human.

Gender is sociological, not biological

[Necroghastia]

Why?

Because its not? Because as a gay man I haven't been tricked and brainwashed by a cisnormative society into thinking the categories of 'male' and 'female' exist, such that I'm very attracted to one and totally unattracted to the other?

Again, the only one who has said *anything* about that is yourself.

Rather, my distinct sexual and physical reactions to people who present as men, and people who present as women, is rooted in my biologically-determined sexual orientation.

And when people come along and start coming up with quirky identities that necessarily invalidates the gender binary upon which the legitimacy of my entire sexual orientation literally rests, the legitimacy of my identity as a gay man, by pretending that 'male' and 'female' aren't distinct and separate gendered categories (for instance, by claiming you can be legitimately 'bigender' or both at the same time, a claim that directly attacks the legitimacy of my orientation which necessitates distinct, divergent sexual attraction to one gender versus the other),

How do bigender people delegitimize your orientation any more than women do?

but socially-constructed and therefore susceptible to change by the simple creation of new gender identities that are really just personality traits.

Non-binary people don't have an experience that is the same as gay men, lesbian women, bisexuals, and dysphoric binary trans people. They've created identities which they call gender, and if we accept those claims, logically, each of these preceding four identities becomes invalidated and delegitimised in the process.

They really don't, though. How do NB people invalidate binary trans people any more than cis people? How do NB people invalidate gay people any more than straight people?

[Crockerland]

No, people who think they're another gender exist, but the underlying reality remains that they are either male or female.
It matters for a variety of reasons, and I'm on the side of Two genders, but I usually don't bother debating about it.

Just gonna paste something I wrote earlier that addresses this


Gender, as described by the WHO, "refers to the roles, behaviours, activities, attributes and opportunities that any society considers appropriate for girls and boys, and women and men". Now, I do know that it refers to the biological sexes (of which there are two), but not everyone fits into standard gender roles. It's a social construct, not biology, and not everyone will fit in to group A or group B. It's an issue of sociology, not biology.

Gender isn't biological sex.

Well, it was wrong the first time you posted it, and it's wrong again now. Posting it twice didn't actually make it any less wrong.

Great choice to cite an organization that made headlines for months because they told us the Coronavirus could not be transmitted person-to-person, that we shouldn't shut down travel from China, and that we shouldn't wear masks to prevent its spread, though.

[Purgatio]

I mean, you could go onto the Gender Wiki right now, oftentimes the contributions there are written and edited by non-binary people who identify as such, and literally just read what these people say in describing their own identity. These aren't real genders, they are personality traits that people come up with because they feel a little different from other people (again, everyone does). And to imply that that's the same as the crippling dysphoria suffered by binary trans people, arising out of them being on literally the wrong place of the gender binary (wrong in the sense that it does not cohere with their neurology) is offensive. It implies that a binary trans person identifies as a woman or a man because of simple, frequent, and ubiquitous quirks of personality or just an anxious need to feel different, when that's obviously not the case.

And again, you're ignoring that a) NB people can and often do have dysphoria and b) doing the exact same thing you accuse NB people of doing - reducing their lived experiences to falsehoods to fit your own narrative. Once a-fucking-gain, I defy you to actually show me where NB people don't also support binary trans people.

Oh I'm sure non-binary people say they support binary trans people, in fact I'm fully confident they believe it. But, of course, logically, if we accept their gender identities as valid, we can no longer accept the validity of the most validating explanation of transgender identities, namely, the biological explanation for gender dysphoria, that average neurological features in the brain make a person identify with the male or female gendered persona, and the dysphoria of a binary trans person arises from those neurological features appearing in a person of a biological sex not typically associated with said features. If I accept, for example, that it is possible to be 'agender', i.e. neither 'male' nor 'female' is part of your identity, it completely invalidates any neurological explanation for gender dysphoria, because it casts doubt on whether it is possible for a person to identify as a man or woman for immutable, biological reasons, if 'male' and 'female' are socially-learned constructs that is possible to escape and transcend unilaterally through a category like 'agender'. Same for the claim that you can be 'bigender', which even more explicitly contradicts the idea that it is possible for a trans woman or trans man to identify, for biological and neurological reasons, with a particular gender because of statistical averages in the brain structures of cis men and cis women alike. Etc. etc. etc.

What matters is not whether non-binary people think they are supporting binary trans people. I'm sure they think that sincerely. But their arguments, if accepted, are very dangerous and their logical conclusion is really the invalidation of the dysphoria of binary trans people, whether they are willing to admit it or not.

[BurritoBowl]

If all it takes to invalidate a binary gendered worldview is to have someone exist outside of those parameters, then you do not have a strong argument that gender is finite and biologically defined. All that need be done is to take a look around and see that it has in fact societally evolved outside of those definitions.

What's the alternative to accepting this? Bigotry? Violence?

That's not all it takes at all, no one exists outside those parameters, they may think they do, but they don't.

You may think there are only two genders, but there aren't

[Necroghastia]

I think it's good for gay people to rebel against being told our identities, which are non-political biological realities innate to our existence, are the same as identities like "demigirl" or "bigender."

Pretty much the same thing as a trans person being told a "transracial" person is equivalent to them.

Plenty of transwomen and transmen are uncomfortable with their identities and struggles being equated with people who don't have dysphoria, change their overly-long identity term daily and are only in it for "euphoria", which is frequently a code word for "fetish".

I realize you're RPing, DI, as that could be the only explanation for this tier of post, but source?

[Alcala-Cordel]

Just gonna paste something I wrote earlier that addresses this


Gender, as described by the WHO, "refers to the roles, behaviours, activities, attributes and opportunities that any society considers appropriate for girls and boys, and women and men". Now, I do know that it refers to the biological sexes (of which there are two), but not everyone fits into standard gender roles. It's a social construct, not biology, and not everyone will fit in to group A or group B. It's an issue of sociology, not biology.

Gender isn't biological sex.

Well, it was wrong the first time you posted it, and it's wrong again now. Posting it twice didn't actually make it any less wrong.

Great choice to cite an organization that made headlines for months because they told us the Coronavirus could not be transmitted person-to-person, that we shouldn't shut down travel from China, and that we shouldn't wear masks to prevent its spread, though.

COVID is new, and that was how it seemed at the time before they learned otherwise. Besides, the WHO has credibility on the issue. I don't see you with any sources whatsoever.