TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Purgatio]

If the gender binary doesn't exist, if the concepts of 'man' and 'woman' don't really exist as separate, distinct categories, but everyone on the planet is apparently some version of masculine, feminine, bigender, agender etc.,

A claim that, again, nonbinary people and allies aren't making.

It is exactly what non-binary people are claiming, when they come up with identities like 'genderfluid' or 'bigender' or 'agender'. They are essentially attacking the rigid gendered categories of 'male' and 'female' as cisnormative or arbitrary or otherwise socially-constructed. Which, by extension, means every gay man on the planet like me, and every lesbian woman, is in the eyes of these people, deluded or misinformed, because our distinct and bifurcated sexual feelings towards men versus women is irrational and nonsensical, rather than rooted in a human biological reality.

[Crockerland]

It absolutely is a "trivialised fad where someone can just claim to not feel too much like one gender or another and the whole process is done". That's exactly how insulting it is to a binary trans man or trans woman to just call yourself a "demigirl" or "demiboy" because you feel like you have some of the attributes of masculinity or femininity but not others, or call yourself "agender" because you don't feel like you fit in the roles of masculinity or feminity, or call yourself "bigender" because you have some traits of masculinity or femininity in you (everyone does), or call yourself "genderfluid" because you can't make up your mind, or whatever. Regardless, none of these processes resembles the difficult process of social, medical, and surgical transition that a real, dysphoric, binary trans person actually has to undergo. A trans man or woman doesn't transition just because he or she feels like "oh I'm an effeminate biological male" or "oh I'm a pretty masculine biological female", they undergo transition precisely because of gender dysphoria, a sense of extreme discomfort and alienation in one of the genders on the gender binary, requiring a transition to the other end of that binary. Its not a simplistic process of self-identification, where you feel you have some traits of masculinity or femininity, you can invent some new identity for it, and voila, that's your gender.

Very well said.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Anyone who thinks there are only 2 genders needs to take high school sociology and biology.

[Necroghastia]

A claim that, again, nonbinary people and allies aren't making.

It is exactly what non-binary people are claiming, when they come up with identities like 'genderfluid' or 'bigender' or 'agender'. They are essentially attacking the rigid gendered categories of 'male' and 'female' as cisnormative or arbitrary or otherwise socially-constructed. Which, by extension, means every gay man on the planet like me, and every lesbian woman, is in the eyes of these people, deluded or misinformed, because our distinct and bifurcated sexual feelings towards men versus women is irrational and nonsensical, rather than rooted in a human biological reality.

Not really, no.

[Liriena]

I have encountered no such "pain and frustration."

Except that that's not what NB people do at all. I defy you to show me NB people who don't support people transitioning if they feel they need it. Hell, there's a lot of NB people that *do* undergo transition.

It's insulting and dehumanizing to the lived experiences of nonbinary trans people and the psychological realities of gender dysphoria to reduce NB identities to a "trivialised fad where someone can just claim to not feel to much like one gender or another and the whole process is done."

The whole point of the 'smash the binary', 'there are many genders' folks is the invalidation of the gender binary, the notion that 'male' and 'female' are rigid, separate, and distinct gender identities, rooted in biology rather than simple social construction. That worldview necessarily invalidates the lived experiences of binary trans people like Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah, because it implies that there is something inherently unnatural and social constructed about a trans woman's dysphoric need to assimilate into the pre-existing gendered roles, presentation, and persona of the female gender, and likewise something purely socially-constructed about a trans man's dysphoric need to assimilate into the pre-existing gendered roles, presentation, and persona, of the male gender. In reality, there are neurological causes for a person's binary gender identification that gives rise to trans men and women in society and their gender dysphoria when they don't pass and present as men or women in everyday society. That entire dysphoric reality, alleviating only by a binary process of transition from male to female or female to male, is real, natural, and valid, because the gender binary is real. Take that away, and you take away a core part of the identity of binary trans people.

It absolutely is a "trivialised fad where someone can just claim to not feel too much like one gender or another and the whole process is done". That's exactly how insulting it is to a binary trans man or trans woman to just call yourself a "demigirl" or "demiboy" because you feel like you have some of the attributes of masculinity or femininity but not others, or call yourself "agender" because you don't feel like you fit in the roles of masculinity or feminity, or call yourself "bigender" because you have some traits of masculinity or femininity in you (everyone does), or call yourself "genderfluid" because you can't make up your mind, or whatever. Regardless, none of these processes resembles the difficult process of social, medical, and surgical transition that a real, dysphoric, binary trans person actually has to undergo. A trans man or woman doesn't transition just because he or she feels like "oh I'm an effeminate biological male" or "oh I'm a pretty masculine biological female", they undergo transition precisely because of gender dysphoria, a sense of extreme discomfort and alienation in one of the genders on the gender binary, requiring a transition to the other end of that binary. Its not a simplistic process of self-identification, where you feel you have some traits of masculinity or femininity, you can invent some new identity for it, and voila, that's your gender.

I love how truscum rants apply the same disingenuous tactics that TERFs and reactionaries do. Concern trolling, biological essentialism masquerading as scientificism, vague strawmanny accusations of "invalidation", bullying...

[Liriena]

It absolutely is a "trivialised fad where someone can just claim to not feel too much like one gender or another and the whole process is done". That's exactly how insulting it is to a binary trans man or trans woman to just call yourself a "demigirl" or "demiboy" because you feel like you have some of the attributes of masculinity or femininity but not others, or call yourself "agender" because you don't feel like you fit in the roles of masculinity or feminity, or call yourself "bigender" because you have some traits of masculinity or femininity in you (everyone does), or call yourself "genderfluid" because you can't make up your mind, or whatever. Regardless, none of these processes resembles the difficult process of social, medical, and surgical transition that a real, dysphoric, binary trans person actually has to undergo. A trans man or woman doesn't transition just because he or she feels like "oh I'm an effeminate biological male" or "oh I'm a pretty masculine biological female", they undergo transition precisely because of gender dysphoria, a sense of extreme discomfort and alienation in one of the genders on the gender binary, requiring a transition to the other end of that binary. Its not a simplistic process of self-identification, where you feel you have some traits of masculinity or femininity, you can invent some new identity for it, and voila, that's your gender.

Very well said.

What was "very well said" about that? He's overgeneralizing nonbinary people and their experiences without presenting anything to back his claims other than his own spite.

[Necroghastia]

It absolutely is a "trivialised fad where someone can just claim to not feel too much like one gender or another and the whole process is done". That's exactly how insulting it is to a binary trans man or trans woman to just call yourself a "demigirl" or "demiboy" because you feel like you have some of the attributes of masculinity or femininity but not others, or call yourself "agender" because you don't feel like you fit in the roles of masculinity or feminity, or call yourself "bigender" because you have some traits of masculinity or femininity in you (everyone does), or call yourself "genderfluid" because you can't make up your mind, or whatever. Regardless, none of these processes resembles the difficult process of social, medical, and surgical transition that a real, dysphoric, binary trans person actually has to undergo. A trans man or woman doesn't transition just because he or she feels like "oh I'm an effeminate biological male" or "oh I'm a pretty masculine biological female", they undergo transition precisely because of gender dysphoria, a sense of extreme discomfort and alienation in one of the genders on the gender binary, requiring a transition to the other end of that binary. Its not a simplistic process of self-identification, where you feel you have some traits of masculinity or femininity, you can invent some new identity for it, and voila, that's your gender.

Very well said.

Unless Purgatio is using talk-to-text, he didn't say anything at all, this substanceless screed was typed.

[Stellar Colonies]

Believing science even if it contradicts political correctness = literally a flat earther

okay.

You claimed there are only two genders. That is scientifically wrong. If you are using the word gender as a stand-in for human sexes, then there would be three, male, female, and intersex. If you are using the word gender as it is intended by sociologists then the number of genders there are changes based on the social contexts.

Isn't 'intersex' a general term to refer to those of either sex who have abnormal sex chromosomes?

[Liriena]

A claim that, again, nonbinary people and allies aren't making.

It is exactly what non-binary people are claiming, when they come up with identities like 'genderfluid' or 'bigender' or 'agender'. They are essentially attacking the rigid gendered categories of 'male' and 'female' as cisnormative or arbitrary or otherwise socially-constructed. Which, by extension, means every gay man on the planet like me, and every lesbian woman, is in the eyes of these people, deluded or misinformed, because our distinct and bifurcated sexual feelings towards men versus women is irrational and nonsensical, rather than rooted in a human biological reality.

[citation needed]

You keep making claims about what nonbinary people say or do, but you don't actually provide anything substantive. All you have provided are your own truscum interpretations of what you allege nonbinary people have collectively said and what you allege that means for binary people.

Also, again, biological essentialism is garbage. It's a framework for the incurious.

[BurritoBowl]

Orientation is on a different axis, and although male/female roles are societally defined, they are no more or less objectively valid than an individual who exists outside of these definitions. Adding different gender roles is not erasure of those already extant.

The shorter, simpler version of this is that it is objectively easier and better for everyone to just refer to an individual in the way they (the subject individual) prefer.

[Crockerland]

Very well said.

What was "very well said" about that?

The whole thing. Especially the part where he called out "demigirls," "demiboys," "agender," "bigender," and "genderfluid" people.

[Estanglia]

Depends on how we're defining gender.

If it's connected to sex, either as a synonym, or as something closely connected to sex (so sex is the primary defining characteristic of gender), then there's two (potentially three, depending on if you put intersex people as a separate sex).

If it's the societal expression of sex (the roles they're expected to perform, the standards they're expected to adhere to, etc.) then there's potentially infinite genders.

[Necroghastia]

What was "very well said" about that?

The whole thing. Especially the part where he called out "demigirls," "demiboys," "agender," "bigender," and "genderfluid" people.

There's nothing to call out about them, though.

[Liriena]

You claimed there are only two genders. That is scientifically wrong. If you are using the word gender as a stand-in for human sexes, then there would be three, male, female, and intersex. If you are using the word gender as it is intended by sociologists then the number of genders there are changes based on the social contexts.

"Gender" is an interchangeable word for "Sex" and has been for hundreds of years.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/gender

Gender and sex being used interchangeably for a long time doesn't mean much, because time moves on and things change. A specific definition isn't inherently valid simply because it's old.

Also, I wonder why you specifically chose that dictionary as a source for your definition. And why you chose to use a dictionary in the first place, when we're talking about a complex matter which, to be spoken of in-depth, might require using more specialized sources.

[Crockerland]

The whole thing. Especially the part where he called out "demigirls," "demiboys," "agender," "bigender," and "genderfluid" people.

There's nothing to call out about them, though.

Pretending their identities are equivalent to those of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans people (FtM/MtF), and asexuals is definitely worth calling out.

[Necroghastia]

There's nothing to call out about them, though.

Pretending their identities are equivalent to those of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans people (FtM/MtF), and asexuals is definitely worth calling out.

Why would they be pretending about that? They *are* equally as valid.

[Purgatio]

Not only is it not homophobic and transphobic to believe in the biological reality of there being two genders, that the binary categories of male and women are an immutable part of our human biological existence - I actually think it is pretty homophobic and transphobic to reject the gender binary, to say that there are more than two genders or that the categories of male and women are socially-constructed and lack any biological reality.

Homophobic, because it erases the lived experiences and the immutable sexualities of homosexual men and women (myself included), when you tell us that our binary experience of physical, sexual attraction, of being capable of being attracted only to the same gender, and incapable of being attracted to the opposite gender, is somehow the product of social construction or brainwashing, rather than an immutable biological reality, just like the gender binary itself.

And transphobic, because it trivialises the real pain and suffering of binary trans men and women, who have to put in so much effort to socially, medically, and surgically transition from one gender to the opposite gender, with all the complications, difficulties, and struggles that process naturally entails, just to alleviate gender dysphoria, only to be told that really that whole 'transition' process was unnecessary because apparently the categories of male and female aren't important, aren't significant, and are purely social fantasies on a spectrum.

There are only two genders. Male and female. Anyone who says otherwise is invalidating the lived experiences of lesbian women, of gay men like me, and the struggles that trans men and women had to overcome.

No. Just no.

Something being a social construct doesn't invalidate it. You are blinded by your own biological essentialism if you think that people who subscribe to social constructivism (including a fuck ton of binary LGBT people) do so in order to undermine the validity of people's identity. When we say something is a social construct, it's not to say that it's not real, that the material experiences that come with it aren't real or legitimate. Nobody, not a single non-binary person, has ever argued that binary trans people's efforts to transition are invalid because gender is a social construct. At most, some people (not exclusively non-binary people) may be critical of some people being overly narrow and biological essentialist in their definition of what makes a person legitimately male or female in terms of physical appearance. Social constructivism doesn't inherently aim to make gender into something "unnecessary", "unimportant", "insignificant" or a fantasy.

You are arguing against a strawman. And what's worse, you're casting yourself as speaking in the name of binary trans people, even though I'm pretty sure most binary trans people would tell you you're full of it here.

Well first of all, as a gay man I'm sure you're well aware that many of the advances our community made in the public eye, in confirming the legitimacy of our sexuality, arose from the growing and now cemented scientific consensus that homosexuality is an orientation, a sexual orientation rooted in biology, an immutable part of who we are, that cannot be changed no matter what. It was important to explain to society that our orientation, our homosexuality, was an inherently natural part of who we are, essential and permanent and enduring to our person, because that grants the orientation a legitimacy that is lacking if homosexuality is viewed as simply a 'choice' that a person can dabble in from time to time like a trend, phase, or novelty fad.

Regardless, the view that gender is a social construct, specifically that the gender binary, and the categories 'male' and 'female', are social constructs, is necessarily invalidating of binary trans people and the dysphoria they experience. The whole point of gender dysphoria is, similar to the view that homosexuality is an immutable product of either genetics, epigenetics, hormonal factors, birth order factors, or neurological differences between gay and straight individuals, that it is a psychological condition with immutable, neurological causes, such that a sufferer of gender dysphoria will feel intense alienation, unease, and discomfort when inhabiting the gender persona assigned to them from birth based on their biological sex, with such psychological alienation only resolvable through a process of assimilating into the opposite gender persona, which the person is, owing to reasons of immutable brain structure, neurologically and biologically inclined to psychologically identify with. That entire chain of reasoning rests on an understanding that the gender binary, of 'male' and 'female, is rooted in both biology and, specifically, human neurology. That identification with the categories 'male' or 'female' is not the product of trivial and effervescent social trends, but the biology of the person identifying as such, specifically dysphoric binary trans people.

I don't see how, when you erase the biological reality of the gender binary, and imply there is nothing biological or natural about the gender binary, which is apparently totally socially-constructed, you don't also logically invalidate the legitimacy and severity of the neurologically-caused gender dysphoria suffered by trans men and trans women.

[Dumb Ideologies]

The whole thing. Especially the part where he called out "demigirls," "demiboys," "agender," "bigender," and "genderfluid" people.

There's nothing to call out about them, though.

There's enough to call out that the batteries on the loudhailer will need replacing halfway through.

[Crockerland]

Pretending their identities are equivalent to those of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans people (FtM/MtF), and asexuals is definitely worth calling out.

Why would they be pretending about that? They *are* equally as valid.

Nah.

[Liriena]

What was "very well said" about that?

The whole thing. Especially the part where he called out "demigirls," "demiboys," "agender," "bigender," and "genderfluid" people.

You think overgeneralizing entire identities with unsourced quotes and claims is good and valid?

I know being transphobic kinda requires ignorance to function, but by gawd, you could at least have half-decent standards for what you think a proper call out is.

[Liriena]

There's nothing to call out about them, though.

Pretending their identities are equivalent to those of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans people (FtM/MtF), and asexuals is definitely worth calling out.

Why?

[Necroghastia]

No. Just no.

Something being a social construct doesn't invalidate it. You are blinded by your own biological essentialism if you think that people who subscribe to social constructivism (including a fuck ton of binary LGBT people) do so in order to undermine the validity of people's identity. When we say something is a social construct, it's not to say that it's not real, that the material experiences that come with it aren't real or legitimate. Nobody, not a single non-binary person, has ever argued that binary trans people's efforts to transition are invalid because gender is a social construct. At most, some people (not exclusively non-binary people) may be critical of some people being overly narrow and biological essentialist in their definition of what makes a person legitimately male or female in terms of physical appearance. Social constructivism doesn't inherently aim to make gender into something "unnecessary", "unimportant", "insignificant" or a fantasy.

You are arguing against a strawman. And what's worse, you're casting yourself as speaking in the name of binary trans people, even though I'm pretty sure most binary trans people would tell you you're full of it here.

Well first of all, as a gay man I'm sure you're well aware that many of the advances our community made in the public eye, in confirming the legitimacy of our sexuality, arose from the growing and now cemented scientific consensus that homosexuality is an orientation, a sexual orientation rooted in biology, an immutable part of who we are, that cannot be changed no matter what. It was important to explain to society that our orientation, our homosexuality, was an inherently natural part of who we are, essential and permanent and enduring to our person, because that grants the orientation a legitimacy that is lacking if homosexuality is viewed as simply a 'choice' that a person can dabble in from time to time like a trend, phase, or novelty fad.

Regardless, the view that gender is a social construct, specifically that the gender binary, and the categories 'male' and 'female', are social constructs, is necessarily invalidating of binary trans people and the dysphoria they experience. The whole point of gender dysphoria is, similar to the view that homosexuality is an immutable product of either genetics, epigenetics, hormonal factors, birth order factors, or neurological differences between gay and straight individuals, that it is a psychological condition with immutable, neurological causes, such that a sufferer of gender dysphoria will feel intense alienation, unease, and discomfort when inhabiting the gender persona assigned to them from birth based on their biological sex, with such psychological alienation only resolvable through a process of assimilating into the opposite gender persona, which the person is, owing to reasons of immutable brain structure, neurologically and biologically inclined to psychologically identify with. That entire chain of reasoning rests on an understanding that the gender binary, of 'male' and 'female, is rooted in both biology and, specifically, human neurology. That identification with the categories 'male' or 'female' is not the product of trivial and effervescent social trends, but the biology of the person identifying as such, specifically dysphoric binary trans people.

I don't see how, when you erase the biological reality of the gender binary, and imply there is nothing biological or natural about the gender binary, which is apparently totally socially-constructed, you don't also logically invalidate the legitimacy and severity of the neurologically-caused gender dysphoria suffered by trans men and trans women.

Again, please stop presuming to speak for trans people, because there's nothing invalidating about NB people, but there's plenty of invalidating going on in this sorry post. And again, saying that the gender binary is socially constructed is not saying that there's nothing biological or natural about gender.

[Necroghastia]

Why would they be pretending about that? They *are* equally as valid.

Nah.

Yah.

[Purgatio]

The whole point of the 'smash the binary', 'there are many genders' folks is the invalidation of the gender binary, the notion that 'male' and 'female' are rigid, separate, and distinct gender identities, rooted in biology rather than simple social construction. That worldview necessarily invalidates the lived experiences of binary trans people like Blaire White and Kalvin Garrah, because it implies that there is something inherently unnatural and social constructed about a trans woman's dysphoric need to assimilate into the pre-existing gendered roles, presentation, and persona of the female gender, and likewise something purely socially-constructed about a trans man's dysphoric need to assimilate into the pre-existing gendered roles, presentation, and persona, of the male gender. In reality, there are neurological causes for a person's binary gender identification that gives rise to trans men and women in society and their gender dysphoria when they don't pass and present as men or women in everyday society. That entire dysphoric reality, alleviating only by a binary process of transition from male to female or female to male, is real, natural, and valid, because the gender binary is real. Take that away, and you take away a core part of the identity of binary trans people.

It absolutely is a "trivialised fad where someone can just claim to not feel too much like one gender or another and the whole process is done". That's exactly how insulting it is to a binary trans man or trans woman to just call yourself a "demigirl" or "demiboy" because you feel like you have some of the attributes of masculinity or femininity but not others, or call yourself "agender" because you don't feel like you fit in the roles of masculinity or feminity, or call yourself "bigender" because you have some traits of masculinity or femininity in you (everyone does), or call yourself "genderfluid" because you can't make up your mind, or whatever. Regardless, none of these processes resembles the difficult process of social, medical, and surgical transition that a real, dysphoric, binary trans person actually has to undergo. A trans man or woman doesn't transition just because he or she feels like "oh I'm an effeminate biological male" or "oh I'm a pretty masculine biological female", they undergo transition precisely because of gender dysphoria, a sense of extreme discomfort and alienation in one of the genders on the gender binary, requiring a transition to the other end of that binary. Its not a simplistic process of self-identification, where you feel you have some traits of masculinity or femininity, you can invent some new identity for it, and voila, that's your gender.

I love how truscum rants apply the same disingenuous tactics that TERFs and reactionaries do. Concern trolling, biological essentialism masquerading as scientificism, vague strawmanny accusations of "invalidation", bullying...

Lol I'm totally aligned with the TERFs and reactionaries. I mean I've defended the validity of gay and lesbian orientations from unjustified logical attacks waged on the gender binary, which is totally something a cultural reactionary would be interested in doing. And I've done the same for the validity of binary trans men and women, which is totally something a TERF would do.

I feel like more and more labels like 'TERF' are becoming more and more meaningless if someone who defends the validity of trans people's gender identity can get labelled a 'TERF'. C'est la vie.

[Necroghastia]

I love how truscum rants apply the same disingenuous tactics that TERFs and reactionaries do. Concern trolling, biological essentialism masquerading as scientificism, vague strawmanny accusations of "invalidation", bullying...

Lol I'm totally aligned with the TERFs and reactionaries. I mean I've defended the validity of gay and lesbian orientations from unjustified logical attacks waged on the gender binary, which is totally something a cultural reactionary would be interested in doing. And I've done the same for the validity of binary trans men and women, which is totally something a TERF would do.

I feel like more and more labels like 'TERF' are becoming more and more meaningless if someone who defends the validity of trans people's gender identity can get labelled a 'TERF'. C'est la vie.

You're not defending us though. Please, for the love of god, stop claiming you are and actually listen to us.