TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Dumb Ideologies]

This is, however, EXTREMELY rare. Nearly every person who goes through transition, myself included, have been trans since they understood the differences, or at least perceived differences, between genders. Many of us have stories of the exact moments we realized we were, idk, "wrong" I guess. Like God messed up, if you believe.

Most people who are even remotely questioning won't go through transition, because its not just something you can "go and get done." It takes years to do, unless you do it illegally and/or unhealthily. I believe every transition clinic in the U.S. requires long-term proof of dysphoria and at least 1.5 years of HRT, at least for M2F, can't say I know much about the F2M side, not being biologically female myself.

EDIT: You have obviously never met anyone on HRT if you think it's some sort of easy "just take it for a few months" kinda deal. It's literally a second puberty, but 3-4 times faster, significantly more painful and mentally taxing, expensive, and comes with high risks of side effects and cancer. Anyone who has been on HRT for any committed amount of time is most likely "actually trans." Frequently informed consent arguments hide transphobic policy designed to prevent people from getting the help they need, while claiming to be humanitarian.

If YoU dOn'T aGgReE yOuRe SeCrItT tRaNsPhObIc

HaVe yOu EvEn MeT aNy TrAnSpEoPlE?

Straight with a) assuming any proponent of an alternative perspective must be cis b) assuming they're masking hate-fuelled intentions out of malevolent conspiracy instead of honestly disagreeing. Did I accidentally log on to trans twitter?

No I don't have a hidden nefarious agenda I'm masking this is what I actually believe and yes I meet a transperson every time I look in the fucking mirror.

[Serksis Federation]

That would be reasonable however, the world’s population doesn’t act reasonable all the time. In addition there’s also cases of people who after they’ve transitioned they regretted it and either detransitioned or have been wanting to. Those individuals have never had gender dysphoria, but instead something else that was misdiagnosed and treated as such.

One of the reasons why I support "actually informed consent" involving substantial long-term counselling and living in role rather than someone rocking up one day, having a single quick chat, getting prescribed hormones, then popping in a few months later to book surgery. Which is what some memey scamps are pushing for under the label of "informed consent".

This is, however, EXTREMELY rare. Nearly every person who goes through transition, myself included, have been trans since they understood the differences, or at least perceived differences, between genders. Many of us have stories of the exact moments we realized we were, idk, "wrong" I guess. Like God messed up, if you believe.

Most people who are even remotely questioning won't go through transition, because its not just something you can "go and get done." It takes years to do, unless you do it illegally and/or unhealthily. I believe every transition clinic in the U.S. requires long-term proof of dysphoria and at least 1.5 years of HRT, at least for M2F, can't say I know much about the F2M side, not being biologically female myself.

EDIT: You have obviously never met anyone on HRT if you think it's some sort of easy "just take it for a few months" kinda deal. It's literally a second puberty, but 3-4 times faster, significantly more painful and mentally taxing, expensive, and comes with high risks of side effects and cancer. Anyone who has been on HRT for any committed amount of time is most likely "actually trans." Frequently informed consent arguments hide transphobic policy designed to prevent people from getting the help they need, while claiming to be humanitarian.

The question I was referring to was can someone be trans without gender dysphoria. Never did I say it was easy. The case I’m making is that the rare individuals were trans because they transitioned without gender dysphoria.

[Transnista]

This is, however, EXTREMELY rare. Nearly every person who goes through transition, myself included, have been trans since they understood the differences, or at least perceived differences, between genders. Many of us have stories of the exact moments we realized we were, idk, "wrong" I guess. Like God messed up, if you believe.

Most people who are even remotely questioning won't go through transition, because its not just something you can "go and get done." It takes years to do, unless you do it illegally and/or unhealthily. I believe every transition clinic in the U.S. requires long-term proof of dysphoria and at least 1.5 years of HRT, at least for M2F, can't say I know much about the F2M side, not being biologically female myself.

EDIT: You have obviously never met anyone on HRT if you think it's some sort of easy "just take it for a few months" kinda deal. It's literally a second puberty, but 3-4 times faster, significantly more painful and mentally taxing, expensive, and comes with high risks of side effects and cancer. Anyone who has been on HRT for any committed amount of time is most likely "actually trans." Frequently informed consent arguments hide transphobic policy designed to prevent people from getting the help they need, while claiming to be humanitarian.

If YoU dOn'T aGgReE yOuRe SeCrItT tRaNsPhObIc

HaVe yOu EvEn MeT aNy TrAnSpEoPlE?

Straight with the assuming any proponent of an alternative perspective is masking real hate-fuelled intentions and arguing out of malevolent conspiracy instead of possibily honestly disagreeing. Did I accidentally log on to trans twitter?

No I don't have a hidden transphobic agenda I'm masking behind humanitarianism this is what I actually believe and yes I meet a transperson every time I look in the fucking mirror.

Woah hold up. First of all, I never once claimed that YOU were transphobic. My point was that many politicians who make policies like that are (very obviously) just trying to make it harder for us to access the care we need, the same way that many pro-life Conservatives make excessive laws regarding abortion in order to discourage and make it more difficult to get an abortion while pretending its for "the woman's safety." I actually respect your point, and even agree with some parts of it, I was actually disparaging people who use reasonable discussion to hide transphobia in the political arena.

When it does come to my comment about knowing/being trans, I found it dubious that one could even think that it is as simple as "having a quick chat, getting prescribed hormones, then popping in a few months later to book surgery" if one had gone through the process themselves. At least where I am, and from what I know about the rest of the United States, its the same throughout the country, even getting HRT is an ORDEAL, especially if you are trying to get it insured without losing the possibility of an insured GRS later. That's not even mentioning the cost, both the HRT itself and the fact that the moment you start it, your insurance premium WILL skyrocket (because transitioned/transitioning people have a significantly higher risk of many health problems), and getting a good job isn't easy either during a transition. I didn't mean to assume your circumstances and would love to hear what your experience has been, I just personally believe that most claims of "Fad transgenderism" are false when it comes to people actually going through transition. Of course I know that fad transgenderism has been on the rise as "a thing people say," but the dedication and lifelong effects required for even the simplest step of a transition do not lend themselves well to a fad.

EDIT:

The question I was referring to was can someone be trans without gender dysphoria. Never did I say it was easy. The case I’m making is that the rare individuals were trans because they transitioned without gender dysphoria.

I do believe its theoretically possible to be trans without dysphoria, but one would be hard pressed to find a single real case of it. To do so, one would have to go through transition KNOWING that they were comfortable in their current gender, then adapt seamlessly mentally to their new transitioned gender. I personally don't know how someone could do that, or why, but they could, in theory.

[Grenartia]

While you are a minor and not financially independent, the messy reality is that compromise and negotiation with parents and guardians is unavoidable.

The case for prescribing blockers over the heads of a dug-in parent is a reasonable one in my view, but since such parents are likely to strongly oppose transition at home and school it is difficult for any degree of life experience in the preferred gender role to take place or for regular counselling by someone probably trained to be accessed. This limits how sure and informed someone can be in starting hormones so HRT is quite a different matter.

It is also the sort of thing that would be possibly be likely to exacerbate tensions in the household, leading to violence, trans kids getting kicked out etc.

The issue is that this (in the US and other developing countries) could be imposing a mandatory financial burden on the parents, which may be considered a legal no-no.

I mean, so is literally any other medical treatment. Hell, so is keeping the kid fed, clothed, sheltered, etc. But we (rightfully) revoke custody from parents who refuse to do those things, within reason.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Latinx was ever meant to be said out loud. I always thought of it just for the written word.

Which makes it even more stupid, tbh. Words should be meant to be said out loud.

>arguing about linguistics in the trans thread

To be fair, the linguistics in question intersect with trans issues.

Doing porn is grabbing the lowest-hanging fruit. I can see why they're so antagonistic towards sex "workers."

Nothing inherently wrong with exchanging and producing pornography, though the mainstream porn industry is fucked, but that might be best suited for another thread.

Also, sex work is actual work, and is a valid career choice for consenting adults, and is unfortunately often the only career option available to a lot of trans people. Everyone wants to fuck us, but few want to hire us or respect us.

oh gods no don't say that word

someone go put 20p in the distraction generator

Some say that if you recite the word transmedicalism three times whilst looking in the mirror at midnight, Blaire White will appear and declare that she is the transier than thou art.

And then she'll mock you for not looking like a fucking supermodel.

I believe every transition clinic in the U.S. requires long-term proof of dysphoria and at least 1.5 years of HRT,

Nobody that I've heard of demands 1.5 years of HRT to get HRT. And I've known a decent amount of people who've gone to informed consent clinics without "long-term proof of dysphoria" and gotten HRT.

Frequently informed consent arguments hide transphobic policy designed to prevent people from getting the help they need, while claiming to be humanitarian.

Wait, what?

The question I was referring to was can someone be trans without gender dysphoria.

Long story short, yes.

The question I was referring to was can someone be trans without gender dysphoria. Never did I say it was easy. The case I’m making is that the rare individuals were trans because they transitioned without gender dysphoria.

I do believe its theoretically possible to be trans without dysphoria, but one would be hard pressed to find a single real case of it. To do so, one would have to go through transition KNOWING that they were comfortable in their current gender, then adapt seamlessly mentally to their new transitioned gender. I personally don't know how someone could do that, or why, but they could, in theory.

Well, its gender euphoria. For instance, a trans girl might not have dysphoria "as a man", but if she experiences euphoria as a woman, then that's definitely valid.

[Khasinkonia]

Regarding the current trend of discussion, I feel like the conceptualisation of differences between men and women can appear at drastically different times, and so measuring dysphoria by when it noticeably arises becomes complicated when you think about the modern times. Although we still have defined differences in some respects, I found growing up in the 2000s and 2010s that parents were, even in conservative areas, eagerly dismissive of gender differences, and avoided bringing up important issues until absolutely necessary. This creates what I feel to believe is a large contributing factor to why the vast majority of my trans peers have realisations in middle school, rather than the "I've always felt like x" story that sometimes feels like a bit of a fairy tail. At the end of the day, kids (the intellectually sheltered ones of the helicopter parent especially) are a lot more oblivious of some things. Further, when the parents subscribe to authoritarian parenting methods, kids often learn not to question things. The combination of these factors make me feel that describing the transgender experience by the advent of dysphoria is oversimplified given the current culture surrounding gender, and really less helpful to discussing dealing with transgender minors than I think we often give credit for.

For example(though it may sound strange), I was not really inclined to process any distinct differences between the lives of men and women until the 7th grade. I had a sheltered upbringing, in case anyone was wondering. But even a lot of fellow teens with whom I've corresponded(both irl and online) generally recall first thinking about such issues late in elementary school at the earliest, and pinpoint knowing they were trans in middle school.

Really, I'm inclined to say that the story of knowing from early childhood to be rather obstructionary and not really helpful to discussing care for the transgender community's youth.

[Dumb Ideologies]

The story of "knowing basically since I was still in the womb" is often ex post facto rewriting of one's history and narrative to fit the current conception of self. Memories are unreliable and heavily influenced by our current ideas. It need not even be a deliberate process, for instance you'll be prone to recall very isolated incidents that suggest the permanence of social or bodily dysphoria when in fact most people will very occasionally have felt out of step with their gender growing up (they are, after all, two very narrow sets of expectations for a very wide variety of individuals). The sense of permanence and stability is very important to humans.

[Auzkhia]

I feel like a lot of transfemmes are expected to say in regards to their childhoods and past "When I was four years old I tried on my mother's high heels and stole my sister's dresses and knew that I was a female soul in the body of a crossdressing baby" or nothing at all. Even though I literally have done that.

I don't totally buy the feminine essence theory of transsexuality. I feel like "born into the wrong social role" is more accurate than "born in the wrong body" for me. Though I think it's not that important to justify why we are transgender, though a lot of people keep asking, and I just am me, I'm not sorry? I transitioned and feel much more happier that in itself shouldn't need a reason why. Maybe some people want to just because it will keep the Cis™ of off our backs, and sadly, the "born in the wrong body" narrative lines up with their own beliefs and preconceptions about gender.

[Cekoviu]

I feel like a lot of transfemmes are expected to say in regards to their childhoods and past "When I was four years old I tried on my mother's high heels and stole my sister's dresses and knew that I was a female soul in the body of a crossdressing baby" or nothing at all. Even though I literally have done that.

I don't totally buy the feminine essence theory of transsexuality. I feel like "born into the wrong social role" is more accurate than "born in the wrong body" for me. Though I think it's not that important to justify why we are transgender, though a lot of people keep asking, and I just am me, I'm not sorry? I transitioned and feel much more happier that in itself shouldn't need a reason why. Maybe some people want to just because it will keep the Cis™ of off our backs, and sadly, the "born in the wrong body" narrative lines up with their own beliefs and preconceptions about gender.

The most accurate description is not "born with the wrong body," but "born with the wrong brain."

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The issue is that this (in the US and other developing countries) could be imposing a mandatory financial burden on the parents, which may be considered a legal no-no.

I mean, so is literally any other medical treatment. Hell, so is keeping the kid fed, clothed, sheltered, etc. But we (rightfully) revoke custody from parents who refuse to do those things, within reason.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Latinx was ever meant to be said out loud. I always thought of it just for the written word.

Which makes it even more stupid, tbh. Words should be meant to be said out loud.

>arguing about linguistics in the trans thread

To be fair, the linguistics in question intersect with trans issues.

Nothing inherently wrong with exchanging and producing pornography, though the mainstream porn industry is fucked, but that might be best suited for another thread.

Also, sex work is actual work, and is a valid career choice for consenting adults, and is unfortunately often the only career option available to a lot of trans people. Everyone wants to fuck us, but few want to hire us or respect us.

Some say that if you recite the word transmedicalism three times whilst looking in the mirror at midnight, Blaire White will appear and declare that she is the transier than thou art.

And then she'll mock you for not looking like a fucking supermodel.

I believe every transition clinic in the U.S. requires long-term proof of dysphoria and at least 1.5 years of HRT,

Nobody that I've heard of demands 1.5 years of HRT to get HRT. And I've known a decent amount of people who've gone to informed consent clinics without "long-term proof of dysphoria" and gotten HRT.

Frequently informed consent arguments hide transphobic policy designed to prevent people from getting the help they need, while claiming to be humanitarian.

Wait, what?

The question I was referring to was can someone be trans without gender dysphoria.

Long story short, yes.

I do believe its theoretically possible to be trans without dysphoria, but one would be hard pressed to find a single real case of it. To do so, one would have to go through transition KNOWING that they were comfortable in their current gender, then adapt seamlessly mentally to their new transitioned gender. I personally don't know how someone could do that, or why, but they could, in theory.

Well, its gender euphoria. For instance, a trans girl might not have dysphoria "as a man", but if she experiences euphoria as a woman, then that's definitely valid.

You’d think that it should’ve been made so it’s said out loud too but eh. I understand the desire to have gender neutral terms, to be accepting and accommodating, but with Spanish there was no need really to create one. When it’s a matter of using a gender neutral term, the rule of thumb is, provided the word can be modified, to use the male termination which is also understood as neutral for said cases by the speaker.

I’ve also seen a written example of the word that looks like this: “Latin@s“. I’ve seen, to a lesser extent, the use of “Latines” too. None of these are really used in verbal communication. Not even the people who use them in written form use them when speaking. The “Latinx”/“Latinxs” example itself, it’s un-utterable. It makes no sense. It was ultimately not needed. It’s truly some “woke“ shit, and that’s not a word I like using.

[Khasinkonia]

I mean, so is literally any other medical treatment. Hell, so is keeping the kid fed, clothed, sheltered, etc. But we (rightfully) revoke custody from parents who refuse to do those things, within reason.



Which makes it even more stupid, tbh. Words should be meant to be said out loud.



To be fair, the linguistics in question intersect with trans issues.



Also, sex work is actual work, and is a valid career choice for consenting adults, and is unfortunately often the only career option available to a lot of trans people. Everyone wants to fuck us, but few want to hire us or respect us.



And then she'll mock you for not looking like a fucking supermodel.



Nobody that I've heard of demands 1.5 years of HRT to get HRT. And I've known a decent amount of people who've gone to informed consent clinics without "long-term proof of dysphoria" and gotten HRT.



Wait, what?



Long story short, yes.



Well, its gender euphoria. For instance, a trans girl might not have dysphoria "as a man", but if she experiences euphoria as a woman, then that's definitely valid.

You’d think that it should’ve been made so it’s said out loud too but eh. I understand the desire to have gender neutral terms, to be accepting and accommodating, but with Spanish there was no need really to create one. When it’s a matter of using a gender neutral term, the rule of thumb is, provided the word can be modified, to use the male termination which is also understood as neutral for said cases by the speaker.

I’ve also seen a written example of the word that looks like this: “Latin@s“. I’ve seen, to a lesser extent, the use of “Latines” too. None of these are really used in verbal communication. Not even the people who use them in written form use them when speaking. The “Latinx”/“Latinxs” example itself, it’s un-utterable. It makes no sense. It was ultimately not needed. It’s truly some “woke“ shit, and that’s not a word I like using.

I'm a native English speaker so it probably doesn't count for much, but when I speak French and try to mention someone in gender neutral terms, instead of Il/Elle I'll use El, and then with endings I either break gender agreement or just say something like "france-es" instead of français/francaise. Instead of le/la I'll use lu. That kinda deal. I'm sure the Academie is coming for my ass, but I like what I do for my nonbinary pals.

[Proctopeo]

You’d think that it should’ve been made so it’s said out loud too but eh. I understand the desire to have gender neutral terms, to be accepting and accommodating, but with Spanish there was no need really to create one. When it’s a matter of using a gender neutral term, the rule of thumb is, provided the word can be modified, to use the male termination which is also understood as neutral for said cases by the speaker.

I’ve also seen a written example of the word that looks like this: “Latin@s“. I’ve seen, to a lesser extent, the use of “Latines” too. None of these are really used in verbal communication. Not even the people who use them in written form use them when speaking. The “Latinx”/“Latinxs” example itself, it’s un-utterable. It makes no sense. It was ultimately not needed. It’s truly some “woke“ shit, and that’s not a word I like using.

I'm a native English speaker so it probably doesn't count for much, but when I speak French and try to mention someone in gender neutral terms, instead of Il/Elle I'll use El, and then with endings I either break gender agreement or just say something like "france-es" instead of français/francaise. Instead of le/la I'll use lu. That kinda deal. I'm sure the Academie is coming for my ass, but I like what I do for my nonbinary pals.

I feel like it's more than just L’Académie who would take issue with that, much like how Nana, a native Spanish speaker, takes issue with "latinx".

you're a native Spanish speaker, right, Nana?

[Khasinkonia]

I'm a native English speaker so it probably doesn't count for much, but when I speak French and try to mention someone in gender neutral terms, instead of Il/Elle I'll use El, and then with endings I either break gender agreement or just say something like "france-es" instead of français/francaise. Instead of le/la I'll use lu. That kinda deal. I'm sure the Academie is coming for my ass, but I like what I do for my nonbinary pals.

I feel like it's more than just L’Académie who would take issue with that, much like how Nana, a native Spanish speaker, takes issue with "latinx".

you're a native Spanish speaker, right, Nana?

In my defence, I also just decimate what gendering we do have in English whenever a nonbinary person is involved, and, if I could get away with it, I would absolutely glue 人 to 也.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You’d think that it should’ve been made so it’s said out loud too but eh. I understand the desire to have gender neutral terms, to be accepting and accommodating, but with Spanish there was no need really to create one. When it’s a matter of using a gender neutral term, the rule of thumb is, provided the word can be modified, to use the male termination which is also understood as neutral for said cases by the speaker.

I’ve also seen a written example of the word that looks like this: “Latin@s“. I’ve seen, to a lesser extent, the use of “Latines” too. None of these are really used in verbal communication. Not even the people who use them in written form use them when speaking. The “Latinx”/“Latinxs” example itself, it’s un-utterable. It makes no sense. It was ultimately not needed. It’s truly some “woke“ shit, and that’s not a word I like using.

I'm a native English speaker so it probably doesn't count for much, but when I speak French and try to mention someone in gender neutral terms, instead of Il/Elle I'll use El, and then with endings I either break gender agreement or just say something like "france-es" instead of français/francaise. Instead of le/la I'll use lu. That kinda deal. I'm sure the Academie is coming for my ass, but I like what I do for my nonbinary pals.

The issue is that structurally, most if not all Romance languages are built around gender. And when you have the need to abstain from establishing gender, the masculine is the default. It’s understood as such.

I’m not going to scold you for your efforts, however. You’re being inclusive, which is laudable. If anyone who speaks French as a native languages wants to take you on that, that’s on them. I’m just explaining why, for Spanish, substituting the -a or the -o for an x makes absolutely no sense, particularly for verbal communication.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I'm a native English speaker so it probably doesn't count for much, but when I speak French and try to mention someone in gender neutral terms, instead of Il/Elle I'll use El, and then with endings I either break gender agreement or just say something like "france-es" instead of français/francaise. Instead of le/la I'll use lu. That kinda deal. I'm sure the Academie is coming for my ass, but I like what I do for my nonbinary pals.

I feel like it's more than just L’Académie who would take issue with that, much like how Nana, a native Spanish speaker, takes issue with "latinx".

you're a native Spanish speaker, right, Nana?

Yes, I am.

[Khasinkonia]

I'm a native English speaker so it probably doesn't count for much, but when I speak French and try to mention someone in gender neutral terms, instead of Il/Elle I'll use El, and then with endings I either break gender agreement or just say something like "france-es" instead of français/francaise. Instead of le/la I'll use lu. That kinda deal. I'm sure the Academie is coming for my ass, but I like what I do for my nonbinary pals.

The issue is that structurally, most if not all Romance languages are built around gender. And when you have the need to abstain from establishing gender, the masculine is the default. It’s understood as such.

I’m not going to scold you for your efforts, however. You’re being inclusive, which is laudable. If anyone who speaks French as a native languages wants to take you on that, that’s on them. I’m just explaining why, for Spanish, substituting the -a or the -o for an x makes absolutely no sense, particularly for verbal communication.

I'm well aware of the implications of breaking the binary in Romance languages. I will say it's a lot easier to do gender-neutral speaking in verbal French because one can inject ambiguities fairly easily, but I've never really tried to do proper written gender neutral. I sorta took inspiration from Romanian in playing with gender neutral, but of course my main concern is just putting in enough ambiguity that it's clear I'm talking about someone explicitly nonbinary.

I agree about the x though. Maybe it'd sound dated, but why not just say Latin? Or Latinu, idk.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The issue is that structurally, most if not all Romance languages are built around gender. And when you have the need to abstain from establishing gender, the masculine is the default. It’s understood as such.

I’m not going to scold you for your efforts, however. You’re being inclusive, which is laudable. If anyone who speaks French as a native languages wants to take you on that, that’s on them. I’m just explaining why, for Spanish, substituting the -a or the -o for an x makes absolutely no sense, particularly for verbal communication.

I'm well aware of the implications of breaking the binary in Romance languages. I will say it's a lot easier to do gender-neutral speaking in verbal French because one can inject ambiguities fairly easily, but I've never really tried to do proper written gender neutral. I sorta took inspiration from Romanian in playing with gender neutral, but of course my main concern is just putting in enough ambiguity that it's clear I'm talking about someone explicitly nonbinary.

I agree about the x though. Maybe it'd sound dated, but why not just say Latin? Or Latinu, idk.

Using Latin can lend itself to confusion. It can be interpreted as the speaker referring to the language, latin or “latín”. The -u termination, however, can’t say. It could be too archaic to be effective. And since there’s already a default, not sure.

[Proctopeo]

I feel like it's more than just L’Académie who would take issue with that, much like how Nana, a native Spanish speaker, takes issue with "latinx".

you're a native Spanish speaker, right, Nana?

In my defence, I also just decimate what gendering we do have in English whenever a nonbinary person is involved, and, if I could get away with it, I would absolutely glue 人 to 也.

Playing weird with pronouns is much more doable in English than in pretty much any other significant language. Which, I suppose, explains why "neopronouns" are almost exclusive to the Anglosphere.

The issue is that structurally, most if not all Romance languages are built around gender. And when you have the need to abstain from establishing gender, the masculine is the default. It’s understood as such.

I’m not going to scold you for your efforts, however. You’re being inclusive, which is laudable. If anyone who speaks French as a native languages wants to take you on that, that’s on them. I’m just explaining why, for Spanish, substituting the -a or the -o for an x makes absolutely no sense, particularly for verbal communication.

I'm well aware of the implications of breaking the binary in Romance languages. I will say it's a lot easier to do gender-neutral speaking in verbal French because one can inject ambiguities fairly easily, but I've never really tried to do proper written gender neutral. I sorta took inspiration from Romanian in playing with gender neutral, but of course my main concern is just putting in enough ambiguity that it's clear I'm talking about someone explicitly nonbinary.

I agree about the x though. Maybe it'd sound dated, but why not just say Latin? Or Latinu, idk.

"Latine" makes more sense, though the whole "making the gender-neutral gender-neutralier" thing is pretty stupid to begin with.
I'm also not sure how it would be pronounced in Spanish.

[Khasinkonia]

I'm well aware of the implications of breaking the binary in Romance languages. I will say it's a lot easier to do gender-neutral speaking in verbal French because one can inject ambiguities fairly easily, but I've never really tried to do proper written gender neutral. I sorta took inspiration from Romanian in playing with gender neutral, but of course my main concern is just putting in enough ambiguity that it's clear I'm talking about someone explicitly nonbinary.

I agree about the x though. Maybe it'd sound dated, but why not just say Latin? Or Latinu, idk.

Using Latin can lend itself to confusion. It can be interpreted as the speaker referring to the language, latin or “latín”. The -u termination, however, can’t say. It could be too archaic to be effective. And since there’s already a default, not sure.

I think context could be helpful. I feel like saying "They're Latin" would sound dated, but I feel like the average English speaker could get the idea. Tho, save Brazilians, I feel like saying Hispanic would evade the issue entirely.

[Khasinkonia]

In my defence, I also just decimate what gendering we do have in English whenever a nonbinary person is involved, and, if I could get away with it, I would absolutely glue 人 to 也.

Playing weird with pronouns is much more doable in English than in pretty much any other significant language. Which, I suppose, explains why "neopronouns" are almost exclusive to the Anglosphere.

With Chinese, it is an issue of comprehension, which is why unfortunately gender neutral language seems to have difficulties entering written languages. Chinese spoken pronouns are all the same. Though there are different characters for he/she/it, they're all pronouned identically.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

In my defence, I also just decimate what gendering we do have in English whenever a nonbinary person is involved, and, if I could get away with it, I would absolutely glue 人 to 也.

Playing weird with pronouns is much more doable in English than in pretty much any other significant language. Which, I suppose, explains why "neopronouns" are almost exclusive to the Anglosphere.

I'm well aware of the implications of breaking the binary in Romance languages. I will say it's a lot easier to do gender-neutral speaking in verbal French because one can inject ambiguities fairly easily, but I've never really tried to do proper written gender neutral. I sorta took inspiration from Romanian in playing with gender neutral, but of course my main concern is just putting in enough ambiguity that it's clear I'm talking about someone explicitly nonbinary.

I agree about the x though. Maybe it'd sound dated, but why not just say Latin? Or Latinu, idk.

"Latine" makes more sense, though the whole "making the gender-neutral gender-neutralier" thing is pretty stupid to begin with.
I'm also not sure how it would be pronounced in Spanish.

Latine? Sounds pretty much the same like it’s written: Lah-teen-eh. (Approx)

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Using Latin can lend itself to confusion. It can be interpreted as the speaker referring to the language, latin or “latín”. The -u termination, however, can’t say. It could be too archaic to be effective. And since there’s already a default, not sure.

I think context could be helpful. I feel like saying "They're Latin" would sound dated, but I feel like the average English speaker could get the idea. Tho, save Brazilians, I feel like saying Hispanic would evade the issue entirely.

You end up with the same issue as Hispanic is gendered too: hispánico/a. Adding an -e to it changes things entirely: hispanique. You’d have to change the word to add a q, so that it’s pronounceable with an -e termination. Things get complicated.

[Khasinkonia]

I think context could be helpful. I feel like saying "They're Latin" would sound dated, but I feel like the average English speaker could get the idea. Tho, save Brazilians, I feel like saying Hispanic would evade the issue entirely.

You end up with the same issue as Hispanic is gendered too: hispánico/a. Adding an -e to it changes things entirely: hispanique. You’d have to change the word to add a q, so that it’s pronounceable with an -e termination. Things get complicated.

Of course the issue remains in Spanish, but I meant to say it's a simple fix as far as English goes.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You end up with the same issue as Hispanic is gendered too: hispánico/a. Adding an -e to it changes things entirely: hispanique. You’d have to change the word to add a q, so that it’s pronounceable with an -e termination. Things get complicated.

Of course the issue remains in Spanish, but I meant to say it's a simple fix as far as English goes.

Well, yes. English is more versatile in that regard. Your language doesn’t really revolve around a gendered structure. Remaining neutral is easier in English.

[North Arkana]

I feel like a lot of transfemmes are expected to say in regards to their childhoods and past "When I was four years old I tried on my mother's high heels and stole my sister's dresses and knew that I was a female soul in the body of a crossdressing baby" or nothing at all. Even though I literally have done that.

I don't totally buy the feminine essence theory of transsexuality. I feel like "born into the wrong social role" is more accurate than "born in the wrong body" for me. Though I think it's not that important to justify why we are transgender, though a lot of people keep asking, and I just am me, I'm not sorry? I transitioned and feel much more happier that in itself shouldn't need a reason why. Maybe some people want to just because it will keep the Cis™ of off our backs, and sadly, the "born in the wrong body" narrative lines up with their own beliefs and preconceptions about gender.

My story was sort of like that... at least until my family got so fed up with me trying to act like a girl they forcibly changed therapists because they dared to suggest they should just let me buy some clothes of my own rather than "borrowing" other articles of clothing. After that I think the best way to describe it is that I got shoved so hard into the closet via "discipline" that it became what I'd almost term a dissociative state. I couldn't be "me" without authority figures in my life making it hellish, and I couldn't acknowledge that I was being treated in such a manner without becoming severely depressive. Man, I wonder where my severe anxiety to the point of requiring medication, and incredibly avoidant behavior came from when I was younger...

That stage of my life is pretty well past now though, thankfully.

[Grenartia]

I mean, so is literally any other medical treatment. Hell, so is keeping the kid fed, clothed, sheltered, etc. But we (rightfully) revoke custody from parents who refuse to do those things, within reason.



Which makes it even more stupid, tbh. Words should be meant to be said out loud.



To be fair, the linguistics in question intersect with trans issues.



Also, sex work is actual work, and is a valid career choice for consenting adults, and is unfortunately often the only career option available to a lot of trans people. Everyone wants to fuck us, but few want to hire us or respect us.



And then she'll mock you for not looking like a fucking supermodel.



Nobody that I've heard of demands 1.5 years of HRT to get HRT. And I've known a decent amount of people who've gone to informed consent clinics without "long-term proof of dysphoria" and gotten HRT.



Wait, what?



Long story short, yes.



Well, its gender euphoria. For instance, a trans girl might not have dysphoria "as a man", but if she experiences euphoria as a woman, then that's definitely valid.

You’d think that it should’ve been made so it’s said out loud too but eh. I understand the desire to have gender neutral terms, to be accepting and accommodating, but with Spanish there was no need really to create one. When it’s a matter of using a gender neutral term, the rule of thumb is, provided the word can be modified, to use the male termination which is also understood as neutral for said cases by the speaker.

I’ve also seen a written example of the word that looks like this: “Latin@s“. I’ve seen, to a lesser extent, the use of “Latines” too. None of these are really used in verbal communication. Not even the people who use them in written form use them when speaking. The “Latinx”/“Latinxs” example itself, it’s un-utterable. It makes no sense. It was ultimately not needed. It’s truly some “woke“ shit, and that’s not a word I like using.

I mean, I can definitely understand the desire to have some gender neutral terms in Spanish, especially because the "default to masculine" stance feels like its completely missing the point. And that's not just in Spanish. I've had English teachers, and even professors, tell me to "use gender neutral he" in English. Like, 'default to masculine for gender neutrality' is pretty pants on head (not that going pants on head in the other direction, with something utterly unpronounceable in a given language, is justified by that), IMO. At least in English, there's no way to determine between "gender neutral masculine" and regular "masculine", absent a lot of additional context that may not be present for various reasons. And, given the attempts to address that same problem in Spanish (and my own admittedly limited experiences in it), it seems like its present in that language, too.

Personally, I think Latine should be the term to use (really, -e as much as possible, it sounds pretty nice, at least to me).

I feel like a lot of transfemmes are expected to say in regards to their childhoods and past "When I was four years old I tried on my mother's high heels and stole my sister's dresses and knew that I was a female soul in the body of a crossdressing baby" or nothing at all. Even though I literally have done that.

I don't totally buy the feminine essence theory of transsexuality. I feel like "born into the wrong social role" is more accurate than "born in the wrong body" for me. Though I think it's not that important to justify why we are transgender, though a lot of people keep asking, and I just am me, I'm not sorry? I transitioned and feel much more happier that in itself shouldn't need a reason why. Maybe some people want to just because it will keep the Cis™ of off our backs, and sadly, the "born in the wrong body" narrative lines up with their own beliefs and preconceptions about gender.

My story was sort of like that... at least until my family got so fed up with me trying to act like a girl they forcibly changed therapists because they dared to suggest they should just let me buy some clothes of my own rather than "borrowing" other articles of clothing. After that I think the best way to describe it is that I got shoved so hard into the closet via "discipline" that it became what I'd almost term a dissociative state. I couldn't be "me" without authority figures in my life making it hellish, and I couldn't acknowledge that I was being treated in such a manner without becoming severely depressive. Man, I wonder where my severe anxiety to the point of requiring medication, and incredibly avoidant behavior came from when I was younger...

That stage of my life is pretty well past now though, thankfully.

God, that's shitty.