TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Crockerland]

I just wanted to ask the thread is there a difference between being gay and being “strictly Dickly”. The later meaning that they’re willing to date a person of any gender as long as they have a penis.

Is there a difference? Well, yes, because, according to you, the latter is "willing to date a person of any gender [...]," which specifically precludes them from being gay, as gay people are only willing to date other people of the same gender.

[Fahran]

TERFs don't advocate strict adherence to traditional gender norms. If anything, they often advocate strict rejection of traditional gender norms, often shaming people who decide to conform to them.

Nah, TERFs think that any woman who doesn't conform to stereotypical femininity is an evil male invading women's spaces.

I've more or less addressed this already. TERF's conception of femininity does not require them to act or present in a traditionally or stereotypically feminine way because they believe in biological essentialism. Hence all the butch lesbians who are TERF's.

[New Paine]

I just wanted to ask the thread is there a difference between being gay and being “strictly Dickly”. The later meaning that they’re willing to date a person of any gender as long as they have a penis.

Is there a difference? Well, yes, because, according to you, the latter is "willing to date a person of any gender [...]," which specifically precludes them from being gay, as gay people are only willing to date other people of the same gender.

Well, I guess I’m not gay then.

But I guess it doesn’t really matter because I haven’t date anyone that wasn’t an exclusively online...ever. I haven’t had an online relationship in almost a decade.

So, that does that make me asexual?

Nah, i’m going to go with identifying based on how I feel what is best for myself. Not on what other people think.

[New Paine]

Nah, TERFs think that any woman who doesn't conform to stereotypical femininity is an evil male invading women's spaces.

I've more or less addressed this already. TERF's conception of femininity does not require them to act or present in a traditionally or stereotypically feminine way because they believe in biological essentialism. Hence all the butch lesbians who are TERF's.

Indeed, TERFS believe that trans women are not women. There are TERFS that believe in the abolition of gender roles. Also, I think what also drives TERFS to be TERFS is Misandry.

[Auzkhia]

I just wanted to ask the thread is there a difference between being gay and being “strictly Dickly”. The later meaning that they’re willing to date a person of any gender as long as they have a penis.

Gay usually refers to someone who is persistently attracted to the same gender, and for example, a man loving another man can be considered, and often is, gay, whether cis or trans.

Otherwise, I'd call that bi/pan but with a dick fetish.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I just wanted to ask the thread is there a difference between being gay and being “strictly Dickly”. The later meaning that they’re willing to date a person of any gender as long as they have a penis.

Gay usually refers to someone who is persistently attracted to the same gender, and for example, a man loving another man can be considered, and often is, gay, whether cis or trans.

Otherwise, I'd call that bi/pan but with a dick fetish.

I'm dubious about describing only wanting sex with people with a particular configuration of genitals as a fetish.

[Fahran]

Otherwise, I'd call that bi/pan but with a dick fetish.

I would say it depends on how gender construction occurs between two partners. A gay man could be attracted to a transwoman who presents a variety of masculine traits and few if any noticeable feminine traits without any logical inconsistency, though perhaps this would be disrespectful to his partner's gender identity. People tend to construct gender a bit differently when it comes to their romantic and sexual partners as quite a few articles on the subject suggest.

[New Paine]

Otherwise, I'd call that bi/pan but with a dick fetish.

I would say it depends on how gender construction occurs between two partners. A gay man could be attracted to a transwoman who presents a variety of masculine traits and few if any noticeable feminine traits without any logical inconsistency, though perhaps this would be disrespectful to his partner's gender identity. People tend to construct gender a bit differently when it comes to their romantic and sexual partners as quite a few articles on the subject suggest.

How about gay men that attracted to effeminate men, trans women and gender nonconforming people that are more feminine but have a penis? There is a myth that all gay men are attracted to masculine men.

[Crockerland]

Is there a difference? Well, yes, because, according to you, the latter is "willing to date a person of any gender [...]," which specifically precludes them from being gay, as gay people are only willing to date other people of the same gender.

Well, I guess I’m not gay then.

Ummm sweatie?? Ur saying gay people will only date people of the same gender?? Eyeroll time


Yes, that's correct, people who are gay want to date people of the same gender, and do not want to date people of the opposite gender. If that does not describe you, you are not gay.

Source: The The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, Human Rights Council, the Cambridge English Dictionary, and everybody else on the planet.

But I guess it doesn’t really matter because I haven’t date anyone that wasn’t an exclusively online...ever. I haven’t had an online relationship in almost a decade.

So, that does that make me asexual?

No?

Nah, i’m going to go with identifying based on how I feel what is best for myself. Not on what other people think.

You can do whatever you want, but literally every other person you encounter in the real world (the real world = not NSG or Tumblr or a gender studies class) will understand that "gay" means "exclusively interested in the same gender".

[Fahran]

How about gay men that attracted to effeminate men, trans women and gender nonconforming people that are more feminine but have a penis? There is a myth that all gay men are attracted to masculine men.

Effeminate men still possess enough masculine traits to pass as their gender identity by and large. I haven't ever met a gay man that I mistook for a woman even when he had feminine mannerisms or wore feminine clothes. With regard to transwomen and gender non-conforming people, the preference seems to be hinging on the existence of a stereotypically male trait, namely functional male genitalia. Calling yourself gay makes sense in that context but it might well annoy a transwoman or non-binary partner since they do not perceive of themselves as belonging to the same sex.

[New Paine]

Well, I guess I’m not gay then.

Ummm sweatie?? Ur saying gay people will only date people of the same gender?? Eyeroll time


Yes, that's correct, people who are gay want to date people of the same gender, and do not want to date people of the opposite gender. If that does not describe you, you are not gay.

Source: The The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, Human Rights Council, the Cambridge English Dictionary, and everybody else on the planet.

But I guess it doesn’t really matter because I haven’t date anyone that wasn’t an exclusively online...ever. I haven’t had an online relationship in almost a decade.

So, that does that make me asexual?

No?

Nah, i’m going to go with identifying based on how I feel what is best for myself. Not on what other people think.

You can do whatever you want, but literally every other person you encounter in the real world (the real world = not NSG or Tumblr or a gender studies class) will understand that "gay" means "exclusively interested in the same gender".

So, gay men that are not willing to date trans men with vaginas are not gay then?

[Auzkhia]

Otherwise, I'd call that bi/pan but with a dick fetish.

I would say it depends on how gender construction occurs between two partners. A gay man could be attracted to a transwoman who presents a variety of masculine traits and few if any noticeable feminine traits without any logical inconsistency, though perhaps this would be disrespectful to his partner's gender identity. People tend to construct gender a bit differently when it comes to their romantic and sexual partners as quite a few articles on the subject suggest.

A gay man being attracted to a trans woman is having an opposite gender attraction moment. You think how it's possible, there are men who have sex with men, but identify as straight, usually homoflexibile and heteroflexible would be considered appropriate labels, and fall under the bisexuality umbrella.

As a transfemme, I get a little suspicious when a gay man tries to lump in trans women with his usual attraction targets, however, who am I to police others' identities? I know sexuality can be very complex and confound conventional labels. I've been dealing with my sexual and romantic orientations recently.

But do not think trans women, no matter how they present, are sexually and romantic the same as men.

[Crockerland]

Ummm sweatie?? Ur saying gay people will only date people of the same gender?? Eyeroll time


Yes, that's correct, people who are gay want to date people of the same gender, and do not want to date people of the opposite gender. If that does not describe you, you are not gay.

Source: The The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, Human Rights Council, the Cambridge English Dictionary, and everybody else on the planet.

No?

You can do whatever you want, but literally every other person you encounter in the real world (the real world = not NSG or Tumblr or a gender studies class) will understand that "gay" means "exclusively interested in the same gender".

So, gay men that are not willing to date trans men with vaginas are not gay then?

When did I say or even imply anything remotely resembling this? Never? Okay. Then no.

Being attracted to a gender does NOT mean being attracted to every member of that gender. Unless you think all straight women want to fuck Harvey Weinstein.

[New Paine]

Gay usually refers to someone who is persistently attracted to the same gender, and for example, a man loving another man can be considered, and often is, gay, whether cis or trans.

Otherwise, I'd call that bi/pan but with a dick fetish.

I'm dubious about describing only wanting sex with people with a particular configuration of genitals as a fetish.

How would you describe a particular person that has a strong preference towards individuals that have a penis or any other particular configuration of genitals.

[Crockerland]

I would say it depends on how gender construction occurs between two partners. A gay man could be attracted to a transwoman who presents a variety of masculine traits and few if any noticeable feminine traits without any logical inconsistency, though perhaps this would be disrespectful to his partner's gender identity. People tend to construct gender a bit differently when it comes to their romantic and sexual partners as quite a few articles on the subject suggest.

How about gay men that attracted to effeminate men,

"Men that [are] attracted to [...] men" are gay.

trans women

"men that [are] attracted to [...] women" are straight

and gender nonconforming people that are more feminine but have a penis?

Gender nonconforming what? men? Gay if so. If you mean women, then that's straight. If both, bisexual.

It's not that complex, it really isn't.
If you want to date people of your own gender, you're gay
If you want to date people of the other gender, you're straight
If you want to date both, you're bisexual
If you want to date neither, you're asexual

Real simple. Doesn't matter if they're trans, or feminine, or black, or what their horoscope sign is, or whatever, that has nothing to do with orientation.

[New Paine]

How about gay men that attracted to effeminate men,

"Men that [are] attracted to [...] men" are gay.

trans women

"men that [are] attracted to [...] women" are straight

and gender nonconforming people that are more feminine but have a penis?

Gender nonconforming what? men? Gay if so. If you mean women, then that's straight. If both, bisexual.

It's not that complex, it really isn't.
If you want to date people of your own gender, you're gay
If you want to date people of the other gender, you're straight
If you want to date both, you're bisexual
If you want to date neither, you're asexual

Real simple. Doesn't matter if they're trans, or feminine, or black, or what their horoscope sign is, or whatever, that has nothing to do with orientation.

Sexual orientation is more complex than what you make it out to be.

[Fahran]

A gay man being attracted to a trans woman is having an opposite gender attraction moment. You think how it's possible, there are men who have sex with men, but identify as straight, usually homoflexibile and heteroflexible would be considered appropriate labels, and fall under the bisexuality umbrella.

As a transfemme, I get a little suspicious when a gay man tries to lump in trans women with his usual attraction targets, however, who am I to police others' identities? I know sexuality can be very complex and confound conventional labels. I've been dealing with my sexual and romantic orientations recently.

But do not think trans women, no matter how they present, are sexually and romantic the same as men.

I do think couples ought to be on roughly the same page when it comes to their identities, at least if the relationship is going to last and be mutually fulfilling and validating.

[Hediacrana]

A gay man being attracted to a trans woman is having an opposite gender attraction moment. You think how it's possible, there are men who have sex with men, but identify as straight, usually homoflexibile and heteroflexible would be considered appropriate labels, and fall under the bisexuality umbrella.

As a transfemme, I get a little suspicious when a gay man tries to lump in trans women with his usual attraction targets, however, who am I to police others' identities? I know sexuality can be very complex and confound conventional labels. I've been dealing with my sexual and romantic orientations recently.

But do not think trans women, no matter how they present, are sexually and romantic the same as men.

I do think couples ought to be on roughly the same page when it comes to their identities, at least if the relationship is going to last and be mutually fulfilling and validating.

That doesn't really counter anything Auzkhia said, though.

[Ifreann]

Nah, TERFs think that any woman who doesn't conform to stereotypical femininity is an evil male invading women's spaces.

I've more or less addressed this already. TERF's conception of femininity does not require them to act or present in a traditionally or stereotypically feminine way because they believe in biological essentialism. Hence all the butch lesbians who are TERF's.

TERFs believe that they can identify "biological males" on sight alone, but what this amounts to is believing in stereotypes of femininity. They can say that they believe in biological essentialism, but it turns out that you can't do much of an assessment of a stranger's biology just by seeing them walking into the Ladies' Room.

[Fahran]

TERFs believe that they can identify "biological males" on sight alone,

Do they though?

but what this amounts to is believing in stereotypes of femininity. They can say that they believe in biological essentialism, but it turns out that you can't do much of an assessment of a stranger's biology just by seeing them walking into the Ladies' Room.

Again, I think this is more an indirect consequence of trying to enforce their more abstract views of gender on everyone else. As I've pointed out before, I move in circles that would view most TERF's as vaguely boyish or un-feminine in terms of their appearance and mannerisms. Their basic view seems to be that womanhood is innate to maturity and biological femininity.

[Fahran]

That doesn't really counter anything Auzkhia said, though.

Yes, it does. You do need to police identities at some point or else your own identity might wind up getting invalidated or disrespected by potential partners. If you view yourself as a woman but your partner views himself as a gay man and believes you're a man, that's an issue.

As a transfemme, I get a little suspicious when a gay man tries to lump in trans women with his usual attraction targets, however, who am I to police others' identities?

[Dumb Ideologies]

I'm dubious about describing only wanting sex with people with a particular configuration of genitals as a fetish.

How would you describe a particular person that has a strong preference towards individuals that have a penis or any other particular configuration of genitals.

I don't have much interest in defining other people's sexuality tbh. As a moderately sex-averse part of the ace gang I'm not particularly informed on what people get up to and I prefer not to think too much about it. But if I had to give them a label? If the person who likes dick is male, gay is what I'd go with. Trans people are a small subset of the population. In my opinion, making up new labels for people who have different levels of interest in a small number of cases on the fuzzy edge of things is overthinking. Too much sacrifice of intelligibility for too little gain in accuracy.

[Ifreann]

TERFs believe that they can identify "biological males" on sight alone,

Do they though?

They aren't checking people's karyotype before complaining about males invading women's spaces.

but what this amounts to is believing in stereotypes of femininity. They can say that they believe in biological essentialism, but it turns out that you can't do much of an assessment of a stranger's biology just by seeing them walking into the Ladies' Room.

Again, I think this is more an indirect consequence of trying to enforce their more abstract views of gender on everyone else. As I've pointed out before, I move in circles that would view most TERF's as vaguely boyish or un-feminine in terms of their appearance and mannerisms. Their basic view seems to be that womanhood is innate to maturity and biological femininity.[/quote]
So like I said, it amounts to believing in stereotypes of femininity.

[Fahran]

So like I said, it amounts to believing in stereotypes of femininity.

Except they definitely don't. You're not going to convince me that a group that possesses a disproportionate number of political lesbians with bowl cuts in its ranks believes in stereotypes about femininity especially when I'm coming from a traditionally hyper-feminine institution. Biological essentialism in the abstract can lead to the same effect you mentioned and is far more consistent in describing the TERF perspective than supposing that they're simply female reactionaries. The fact that they can't check karyotype is what creates the phenomena you're describing.

[New Paine]

How would you describe a particular person that has a strong preference towards individuals that have a penis or any other particular configuration of genitals.

I don't have much interest in defining other people's sexuality tbh. As a moderately sex-averse part of the ace gang I'm not particularly informed on what people get up to and I prefer not to think too much about it. But if I had to give them a label? If the person who likes dick is male, gay is what I'd go with. Trans people are a small subset of the population. In my opinion, making up new labels for people who have different levels of interest in a small number of cases on the fuzzy edge of things is overthinking. Too much sacrifice of intelligibility for too little gain in accuracy.

^ This is probably the most intelligent post regarding sexual identity that I’ve have read on this thread.