TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Des-Bal]

Also, if you could use the women's bathroom, so could they.

Not if we grant me special treatment to use whichever bathroom I want, that's the ideal situation, rules not applying to me. You know similar how to you don't seriously entertain actually forcing transgender men to use the men's room.

[Cekoviu]

Also, if you could use the women's bathroom, so could they.

Not if we grant me special treatment to use whichever bathroom I want, that's the ideal situation, rules not applying to me. You know similar how to you don't seriously entertain actually forcing transgender men to use the men's room.

You mean that thing that happens so cis people's delicate sensibilities can be maintained?

[Ifreann]

This is perhaps not the ideal place to ask but is asexuality included in the LGBTQ umbrella?

There has been a lot of muddying of the waters with even groups like pedophiles and fetishists trying to grift themselves into the classification...

Nah, that's just 4chan doin' an op.

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Even if Therm's tiny number is accurate, 0.005% of the population is still hundreds of thousands of people. Hundreds of thousands of people that we have to pretend aren't real in order to carry on believing that human sex is binary. It'd be like ignoring the city of Atlanta.

The city of Atlanta doesn’t get to dictate national policy.

The city of Atlanta does exist and their population does count for political purposes and also the place literally does exist. If I told you that the human experience covers everything except that city, would you accept that to be true?

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The city of Atlanta doesn’t get to dictate national policy.

See, you keep using words like 'dictate' and 'forcing' to describe the intent of people disagreeing with you and I still have to see a single instance of any of your conversation partners here trying to do anything like that to you.

You can't justify extreme measures unless you pretend that there is an extreme threat.

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You can use the bathroom corresponding to the gender you identify with. That right applies equally to trans and cis people.

Bathrooms aren't based on gender. If they were then there'd be urinals in the women's room.

I've seen a woman use a urinal before, so maybe there should be.

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Many people consider "queer" a slur, even though it's been "reclaimed" by some.

how the fuck do you reclaim a word?

What does the "N" in "NWA" stand for?

Like that.

---

Not if we grant me special treatment to use whichever bathroom I want, that's the ideal situation, rules not applying to me. You know similar how to you don't seriously entertain actually forcing transgender men to use the men's room.

You mean that thing that happens so cis people's delicate sensibilities can be maintained?

You just can't understand how fragile we are.

[Des-Bal]

You mean that thing that happens so cis people's delicate sensibilities can be maintained?

No that would be forcing transgender women to use the mens room, let's be clear the hysteria has nothing to do with the decency or sensibilities of men. I'm talking about transgender men who see a very Boys Dont Cry looking crowd lining up to use the mens room and begin to entertain second thoughts.

[The Rurkovich Imperium]

And that stupid thing would be?

You're saying you want to use women's restrooms to avoid apparent drug dealers and gay men at bars, which is the dumbest thing I can imagine. It really trivializes the reason why trans people want to use the bathroom of the gender of which they identify.

Your silly spiel where you pretended I or any other party was suggesting action be taken tow exclude homosexuals or Latin Americans, tattooed or otherwise, from a space.

Do I really need to spell out your own conversations to you?

I would because there are fewer homosexual men cruising and Latin American gentlemen with face tattoos selling drugs

If running into "homosexual men cruising and Latin American[s ...] selling drugs" is a legitimate concern to you I'd recommend visiting a psychiatrist because you clearly live in a fantasy world constructed all in your head.

Because it seems like I do. I didn't suggest that you or "any other party was suggesting action be taken tow exclude homosexuals or Latin Americans, tattooed or otherwise, from a space."

I was suggesting that your concern is ridiculous and invalid because it's not a genuine concern. Not a genuine concern of most people, if I'm going to take your anecdotes at face value, which I typically don't.

You don't have a single potential harm that would be suffered discriminating on the basis of sex that wouldn't* be suffered from discriminating on the basis of gender.

If you're suggesting that the two must occur at the same time that is not correct. One can discriminate, for example, persons who are intersex but identify with a binary gender. That individual might identify their gender as female, but can be discriminated against by being forced to identify as male and to only use male spaces, just because their genitalia (again, in example) is largely that of a male. This person isn't being discriminated for being intersex, but rather for identifying as a woman.

[Des-Bal]

Your silly spiel where you pretended I or any other party was suggesting action be taken tow exclude homosexuals or Latin Americans, tattooed or otherwise, from a space.

Do I really need to spell out your own conversations to you?

I would because there are fewer homosexual men cruising and Latin American gentlemen with face tattoos selling drugs

If running into "homosexual men cruising and Latin American[s ...] selling drugs" is a legitimate concern to you I'd recommend visiting a psychiatrist because you clearly live in a fantasy world constructed all in your head.

Because it seems like I do. I didn't suggest that you or "any other party was suggesting action be taken tow exclude homosexuals or Latin Americans, tattooed or otherwise, from a space."

I was suggesting that your concern is ridiculous and invalid because it's not a genuine concern. Not a genuine concern of most people, if I'm going to take your anecdotes at face value, which I typically don't.

You don't have a single potential harm that would be suffered discriminating on the basis of sex that wouldn't* be suffered from discriminating on the basis of gender.

If you're suggesting that the two must occur at the same time that is not correct. One can discriminate, for example, persons who are intersex but identify with a binary gender. That individual might identify their gender as female, but can be discriminated against by being forced to identify as male and to only use male spaces, just because their genitalia (again, in example) is largely that of a male. This person isn't being discriminated for being intersex, but rather for identifying as a woman.

Clearly your experiences in bars is reflective of that of all bars in america so we should 1. legislate accordingly (presumably by banning homosexuals and latin american men with face tattoos from entering bars) and 2. use only anecdotal experiences in bars to determine how to handle all trans bathroom issues.

Oh you did a lie.

We were talking personally, bitching about anecdotes or representing everyone was silly and petty.

Your suggestions are immaterial.

[New Paine]

If it was legal and allowed I would just because it'd be funny.

I would because there are fewer homosexual men cruising and Latin American gentlemen with face tattoos selling drugs.

Would you feel more comfortable if it were white American gentlemen with face tattoos selling drugs?

[Des-Bal]

Would you feel more comfortable if it were white American gentlemen with face tattoos selling drugs?

Probably not. To know for sure we'd have to have serious talks with the local chapter of the aryan brotherhood about their community outreach. For the moment if someone's selling drugs they're latin American and doing it on behalf of latin American gangs.

[New Paine]

Would you feel more comfortable if it were white American gentlemen with face tattoos selling drugs?

Probably not. To know for sure we'd have to have serious talks with the local chapter of the aryan brotherhood about their community outreach. For the moment if someone's selling drugs they're latin American and doing it on behalf of latin American gangs.

Anyway, I would like to make the point that there are some transgender individuals that are able to pass so well, that using the gendered bathroom according to their assigned sex at birth would cause more of a distraction and ruckus if they just used the bathroom according to their gender identity.

[Des-Bal]

Anyway, I would like to make the point that there are some transgender individuals that are able to pass so well, that using the gendered bathroom according to their assigned sex at birth would cause more of a distraction and ruckus if they just used the bathroom according to their gender identity.

This is fair but you must understand you are putting your number against every other human on the planet.

[Neutraligon]

I find this discussion on restrooms interesting considering I support mixed restrooms. I don't get why they need to be separated at all when we have these nice things called stalls.

[Rojava Free State]

If it was legal and allowed I would just because it'd be funny.

I would because there are fewer homosexual men cruising and Latin American gentlemen with face tattoos selling drugs.

I once was walking by the bike tunnel in my town at night and saw a latin American gentlemen with face tattoos selling drugs

Can confirm as a latin American it's best to avoid that at all costs

[New Paine]

Anyway, I would like to make the point that there are some transgender individuals that are able to pass so well, that using the gendered bathroom according to their assigned sex at birth would cause more of a distraction and ruckus if they just used the bathroom according to their gender identity.

This is fair but you must understand you are putting your number against every other human on the planet.

What? I’m of speaking of transgendered individuals that you would not know that they’re transgendered unless they came out to you.

[Albrenia]

Using public toilets freaks me out and I'm not even Trans or anything.

On topic, I support both the 'trans people just use the toilet of the gender they identify as' and the 'unisex bathrooms' options. I'm not really fussed what the person taking a shit in the next stall's gender is as long as they do it in their stall and not mine.

[Des-Bal]

I find this discussion on restrooms interesting considering I support mixed restrooms. I don't get why they need to be separated at all when we have these nice things called stalls.

We share an opinion. I personally am someone who doesn't do rapes or beatings, and any person using the restroom as the same time as me is fortunate for I shall report or intercede in by way of manly violence any rapes or beatings that develop. However if a lady finds that doing bathroom things in my prescience is not to her taste then I cannot see a reason why similar findings would not be valid if my gender were different.

What? I’m of speaking of transgendered individuals that you would not know that they’re transgendered unless they came out to you.

Yeah but you're putting them againt absolutely everyone else. Every transgender person who would not pass and would cause difficulties and in addition to them those cisgender people who are both willing and able to lie. If you're drawing a line then it probably shouldn't be at a thing that is imperceptible.

[Neutraligon]

I find this discussion on restrooms interesting considering I support mixed restrooms. I don't get why they need to be separated at all when we have these nice things called stalls.

We share an opinion. I personally am someone who doesn't do rapes or beatings, and any person using the restroom as the same time as me is fortunate for I shall report or intercede in by way of manly violence any rapes or beatings that develop. However if a lady finds that doing bathroom things in my prescience is not to her taste then I cannot see a reason why similar findings would not be valid if my gender were different.

What? I’m of speaking of transgendered individuals that you would not know that they’re transgendered unless they came out to you.

Yeah but you're putting them againt absolutely everyone else. Every transgender person who would not pass and would cause difficulties and in addition to them those cisgender people who are both willing and able to lie. If you're drawing a line then it probably shouldn't be at a thing that is imperceptible.

For me being in a restroom intended for more then 1 person alone is actually more disturbing, not sure why. I just find the uses of unisex restrooms far outweigh the issue people have with being uncomfortable with it. I mean at 1 point people where uncomfortable with having blacks using the same restroom (and women did not even have their own restroom) but they got over it.

[Thermodolia]

We share an opinion. I personally am someone who doesn't do rapes or beatings, and any person using the restroom as the same time as me is fortunate for I shall report or intercede in by way of manly violence any rapes or beatings that develop. However if a lady finds that doing bathroom things in my prescience is not to her taste then I cannot see a reason why similar findings would not be valid if my gender were different.



Yeah but you're putting them againt absolutely everyone else. Every transgender person who would not pass and would cause difficulties and in addition to them those cisgender people who are both willing and able to lie. If you're drawing a line then it probably shouldn't be at a thing that is imperceptible.

For me being in a restroom intended for more then 1 person alone is actually more disturbing, not sure why. I just find the uses of unisex restrooms far outweigh the issue people have with being uncomfortable with it. I mean at 1 point people where uncomfortable with having blacks using the same restroom (and women did not even have their own restroom) but they got over it.

Tbh not a lot of them have gotten over it, they just died off

[Neutraligon]

For me being in a restroom intended for more then 1 person alone is actually more disturbing, not sure why. I just find the uses of unisex restrooms far outweigh the issue people have with being uncomfortable with it. I mean at 1 point people where uncomfortable with having blacks using the same restroom (and women did not even have their own restroom) but they got over it.

Tbh not a lot of them have gotten over it, they just died off

And the same thing would likely happen in this case.

[Des-Bal]

For me being in a restroom intended for more then 1 person alone is actually more disturbing, not sure why. I just find the uses of unisex restrooms far outweigh the issue people have with being uncomfortable with it. I mean at 1 point people where uncomfortable with having blacks using the same restroom (and women did not even have their own restroom) but they got over it.

Then at this point we have to get into WHY we have segregated restrooms to begin with. If it's safety then the question is whether cisgender women are materially safer among self described transgender women than cisgender men. If it's comfort then it's a question of whether transgender women actually make cisgender women uncomfortable and if they do legislation reflecting it is appropriate.

[Neutraligon]

For me being in a restroom intended for more then 1 person alone is actually more disturbing, not sure why. I just find the uses of unisex restrooms far outweigh the issue people have with being uncomfortable with it. I mean at 1 point people where uncomfortable with having blacks using the same restroom (and women did not even have their own restroom) but they got over it.

Then at this point we have to get into WHY we have segregated restrooms to begin with. If it's safety then the question is whether cisgender women are materially safer among self described transgender women than cisgender men. If it's comfort then it's a question of whether transgender women actually make cisgender women uncomfortable and if they do legislation reflecting it is appropriate.

Should we have continued to allow separate restrooms for blacks and whites simply because some whites where uncomfortable being around blacks? Agreed about the safety thing, though there are other considerations that also need to be taken into account including efficiency, children with parents of the opposite sex who are old enough to be in the restroom of their gender/sex but who are young enough to need supervision, disabled individuals who would like their opposite sex spouse to help (sure disabled restrooms work, by why have them in this scenario?), etc.

[Des-Bal]

Should we have continued to allow separate restrooms for blacks and whites simply because some whites where uncomfortable being around blacks? Agreed about the safety thing, though there are other considerations that also need to be taken into account including efficiency, children with parents of the opposite sex who are old enough to be in the restroom of their gender/sex but who are young enough to need supervision, disabled individuals who would like their opposite sex spouse to help (sure disabled restrooms work, by why have them in this scenario?), etc.

There we must question the purpose. Is our goal comfort tor safety? If it's comfort then you cannot argue people are not uncomfortable about the presence of members of the opposite sex. If it's safety then I don't see why I can't use the women's room when the latin american drug dealers are about.

[Neutraligon]

Should we have continued to allow separate restrooms for blacks and whites simply because some whites where uncomfortable being around blacks? Agreed about the safety thing, though there are other considerations that also need to be taken into account including efficiency, children with parents of the opposite sex who are old enough to be in the restroom of their gender/sex but who are young enough to need supervision, disabled individuals who would like their opposite sex spouse to help (sure disabled restrooms work, by why have them in this scenario?), etc.

There we must question the purpose. Is our goal comfort tor safety? If it's comfort then you cannot argue people are not uncomfortable about the presence of members of the opposite sex. If it's safety then I don't see why I can't use the women's room when the latin american drug dealers are about.

If it is comfort I am not sure why it should be treated any differently then separate restrooms for blacks and whites. If it is for safety then we need evidence that having separate restrooms is in fact safer.

[Des-Bal]

If it is comfort I am not sure why it should be treated any differently then separate restrooms for blacks and whites. If it is for safety then we need evidence that having separate restrooms is in fact safer.

In that regard we are of like mind.

[Crockerland]

There has been a lot of muddying of the waters with even groups like pedophiles and fetishists trying to grift themselves into the classification...

Nah, that's just 4chan doin' an op.

4chan time travelers in the 1970s.

It's less that people are pretending that intersex people aren't real,

But that's exactly what people are doing. To say that sex is binary is to say that intersex people are not real, and they definitely are real.

How? Intersex people are real, and are compatible with the binary, because intersex people, even those with chromosomes other than XY or XX, are either male (XXY, XYY, XXYY) or female (XO).

[Saciu]

There has been a lot of muddying of the waters with even groups like pedophiles and fetishists trying to grift themselves into the classification, so here's a comprehensive list - the LGBT/LGBTI/LGBTIA umbrella (there is no "Q", it's an offensive slur) encompasses:
-Anyone who is a sexual orientation other than straight (gay, bi, or asexual),
-Anyone who does not identify with the gender they were born with,
-Anyone who is born with an intersex condition.

And also, sometimes anyone who is "Gender Nonconforming" is included (LGBTIAGNC) which includes things like straight cisgender crossdressers.

Yeah no, you don't get to call other peoples' identities a slur. There's a great many people who identify simply as queer.

Well, given that queer is literally a slur... It's both a slur and an identity, and the former should take precedence in whether it is considered LGBT+