TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Auzkhia]

Pan lesbian and bi lesbian don't seem like contradictions to me, but it would if you define lesbian as "woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women"

But, a lot of terms are quite flexible maybe it will get more inclusionary or exclusionary depending on who wins the currency battle, however, sexuality is very complex for some putting a label on it, just gets messy, whereas some just pick one, stick with it, and call it a day. It really doesn't matter to me, I genuinely respect one's right to self-identify and so, in general, I am going to call you what you would like to be called.

Lesbian only has one meaning, and that’s the established definition of “ woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women” nothing more, nothing less.

Lesbian can’t be flexible because then you’ll have straight guys claiming to be lesbian because they are attracted to women. Or in the reverse women claiming to be gay men because they are attracted to guys.

Words have meanings and you can’t continue to dilute them to the point where they have no meaning and expect everyone to follow along

I know non-binary people that are lesbians, usually feminine non-binary claim that. Us non-binary people do shake up a lot of things, but honestly, we've been ignored and excluded for so long, and when we try to use already established words that are often close enough, we get yelled at for appropriation, but when we create neologisms, we get yelled for being special snowflakes.

Tangent aside, I rarely find it useful to police other people's identities, I guess the trolls don't count but as enbies aren't trolling anyone, except maybe transphobic people who want to hold onto an outdated stuffy view of gender that is totally inaccurate.

[Dumb Ideologies]

People can make up words, but other people can say that the concept behind the words doesn't make sense, argue that the words are unnecessary, and refuse to use them.

This is one such exchange.

DI when did you become so level headed?

Nah. I'm still an overemotional jerk woobie. But when you've been an arch-libertarian leftist screaming at conservatives, become disillusioned with said ideas, had the same people screaming at you, then ended up screaming at them? It gets harder to get mad at views because you can understand how people think differently.

All that's really changed is that I get mad these days mostly at people who I think are acting in bad faith and trying to wind people up in lieu of an actual argument. Which again is pointless because if they are they can't going to change because they have no shame, but I need an outlet and I'm not ready to stick my fingers in a plug socket just yet.

[Grenartia]

It's just transgender and lesbian smashed together.

Also, all words are made up. So what?

Ok captain pedantic.

There’s a difference between a word you just made up out of the blue and actual words.

You said, unironically after using the word "ok", which was a word that was made up out of the blue.

Honestly. Enlighten us what that difference is. All "actual words" were made up out of the blue at one point.

And no one can’t be a lesbian while also claiming to be pansexual.

This just in, thermo says kinsey scales 1,2, 4, and 5 are completely invalid. Who's being "captain pedantic" now?

Its you. The answer is you. Look in a mirror. You are the very thing you criticized Auzi for being.

Pan lesbian and bi lesbian don't seem like contradictions to me, but it would if you define lesbian as "woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women"

But, a lot of terms are quite flexible maybe it will get more inclusionary or exclusionary depending on who wins the currency battle, however, sexuality is very complex for some putting a label on it, just gets messy, whereas some just pick one, stick with it, and call it a day. It really doesn't matter to me, I genuinely respect one's right to self-identify and so, in general, I am going to call you what you would like to be called.

Lesbian only has one meaning, and that’s the established definition of “ woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women” nothing more, nothing less.

Lesbian can’t be flexible because then you’ll have straight guys claiming to be lesbian because they are attracted to women. Or in the reverse women claiming to be gay men because they are attracted to guys.

Words have meanings and you can’t continue to dilute them to the point where they have no meaning and expect everyone to follow along

Yes or no. Is a woman who falls on 5 on the Kinsey scale a lesbian?

Lesbian only has one meaning, and that’s the established definition of “ woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women” nothing more, nothing less.

Lesbian can’t be flexible because then you’ll have straight guys claiming to be lesbian because they are attracted to women. Or in the reverse women claiming to be gay men because they are attracted to guys.

Words have meanings and you can’t continue to dilute them to the point where they have no meaning and expect everyone to follow along

I know non-binary people that are lesbians, usually feminine non-binary claim that. Us non-binary people do shake up a lot of things, but honestly, we've been ignored and excluded for so long, and when we try to use already established words that are often close enough, we get yelled at for appropriation, but when we create neologisms, we get yelled for being special snowflakes.

This. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

[Thermodolia]

Ok captain pedantic.

There’s a difference between a word you just made up out of the blue and actual words.

You said, unironically after using the word "ok", which was a word that was made up out of the blue.

Honestly. Enlighten us what that difference is. All "actual words" were made up out of the blue at one point.

No they where not just made up out of the blue.

Words develop organically along linguistic, cultural, and social trends. For example the English word Milk came about do to centuries of change from the Proto-Proto-Germanic meluks. Which is why the English, Dutch, and German words for milk are all similar.

Forcibly changing language to suit your needs doesn’t make the rest of language made up.

And no one can’t be a lesbian while also claiming to be pansexual.

This just in, thermo says kinsey scales 1,2, 4, and 5 are completely invalid. Who's being "captain pedantic" now?

Its you. The answer is you. Look in a mirror. You are the very thing you criticized Auzi for being.

Looks like a stuck a nerve. Also that’s a lot of straw you got there.

First off I think the Kinsey scale is a stupid metric and I refuse to recognize the validity of such. But if you must 1,2,3,4 and 5 are all the same thing, bisexuality just different variations of the same.

Lesbian only has one meaning, and that’s the established definition of “ woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women” nothing more, nothing less.

Lesbian can’t be flexible because then you’ll have straight guys claiming to be lesbian because they are attracted to women. Or in the reverse women claiming to be gay men because they are attracted to guys.

Words have meanings and you can’t continue to dilute them to the point where they have no meaning and expect everyone to follow along

Yes or no. Is a woman who falls on 5 on the Kinsey scale a lesbian?

I refer you to the previous that the Kinsey scale is an outmoded piece of shit. But if you must no a lesbian is not a 5, that would be a bisexual.

I know non-binary people that are lesbians, usually feminine non-binary claim that. Us non-binary people do shake up a lot of things, but honestly, we've been ignored and excluded for so long, and when we try to use already established words that are often close enough, we get yelled at for appropriation, but when we create neologisms, we get yelled for being special snowflakes.

This. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

You really don’t have a leg to stand on as you claim to be pansexual, yet also you claim to not be attracted to men.

[Cappuccina]

There is a difference between organic language evolution and Newspeak, kids.

[Vassenor]

There is a difference between organic language evolution and Newspeak, kids.

So how are we trying to exploit linguistic determinism here?

[Hanafuridake]

This is hard to express without sounding snarky or hostile, but words have meaning, and "pansexual lesbian" is mutually exclusive. Sexuality is much more fluid and hard to categorize in neat little boxes like some in the thread want to do, and there are women who don't fully fit either of the three on the spectrum but might consider themselves one of the three, but if you identify as bisexual or pansexual, then you aren't a lesbian. It's not "policing other people's identities" to expect them to use words in their universally agreed upon definition.

I don't know where I would fully fit on the spectrum, but I consider myself a lesbian because I'm exclusively romantically attracted to women and would only date another woman (whether trans or cis).

[Ifreann]

You said, unironically after using the word "ok", which was a word that was made up out of the blue.

Honestly. Enlighten us what that difference is. All "actual words" were made up out of the blue at one point.

No they where not just made up out of the blue.

They totes were tho
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespea ... Vocabulary

Among Shakespeare's greatest contributions to the English language must be the introduction of new vocabulary and phrases which have enriched the language making it more colourful and expressive. Some estimates at the number of words coined by Shakespeare number in the several thousands. Warren King clarifies by saying that, "In all of his work – the plays, the sonnets and the narrative poems – Shakespeare uses 17,677 words: Of those, 1,700 were first used by Shakespeare."[32] He is also well known for borrowing from the classical literature and foreign languages.[21] He created these words by "changing nouns into verbs, changing verbs into adjectives, connecting words never before used together, adding prefixes and suffixes, and devising words wholly original."[33]

---

There is a difference between organic language evolution and Newspeak, kids.

Yes, Newspeak is an attempt to make certain ideas impossible to express, and thus destroy them entirely, by way of an ever shrinking vocabulary and by words only ever having one meaning. Coining new words and phrases and using words and phrases in different senses than their literal meaning are literally the opposite of Newspeak. It's not a coincidence that the authoritarian is the one saying that "lesbian" means one and only one thing and that new words can't just be invented.

[Cappuccina]

No they where not just made up out of the blue.

They totes were tho
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespea ... Vocabulary

Among Shakespeare's greatest contributions to the English language must be the introduction of new vocabulary and phrases which have enriched the language making it more colourful and expressive. Some estimates at the number of words coined by Shakespeare number in the several thousands. Warren King clarifies by saying that, "In all of his work – the plays, the sonnets and the narrative poems – Shakespeare uses 17,677 words: Of those, 1,700 were first used by Shakespeare."[32] He is also well known for borrowing from the classical literature and foreign languages.[21] He created these words by "changing nouns into verbs, changing verbs into adjectives, connecting words never before used together, adding prefixes and suffixes, and devising words wholly original."[33]

---

There is a difference between organic language evolution and Newspeak, kids.

Yes, Newspeak is an attempt to make certain ideas impossible to express, and thus destroy them entirely, by way of an ever shrinking vocabulary and by words only ever having one meaning. Coining new words and phrases and using words and phrases in different senses than their literal meaning are literally the opposite of Newspeak. It's not a coincidence that the authoritarian is the one saying that "lesbian" means one and only one thing and that new words can't just be invented.

Lesbian does only mean one thing....a woman, trans or not...who is attracted to other women.

I don't know how you read my post, but I wasn't disagreeing with the majority opinion of the thread, not necessarily. I was simply pointing out that, people are taking this way too seriously.

[Proctopeo]

This is hard to express without sounding snarky or hostile, but words have meaning, and "pansexual lesbian" is mutually exclusive. Sexuality is much more fluid and hard to categorize in neat little boxes like some in the thread want to do, and there are women who don't fully fit either of the three on the spectrum but might consider themselves one of the three, but if you identify as bisexual or pansexual, then you aren't a lesbian. It's not "policing other people's identities" to expect them to use words in their universally agreed upon definition.

I don't know where I would fully fit on the spectrum, but I consider myself a lesbian because I'm exclusively romantically attracted to women and would only date another woman (whether trans or cis).

Thank you.
I'll also go so far as to say that "he/him lesbian" is also a contradiction in much the same way.

[Luminesa]

Pan lesbian and bi lesbian don't seem like contradictions to me, but it would if you define lesbian as "woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women"

But, a lot of terms are quite flexible maybe it will get more inclusionary or exclusionary depending on who wins the currency battle, however, sexuality is very complex for some putting a label on it, just gets messy, whereas some just pick one, stick with it, and call it a day. It really doesn't matter to me, I genuinely respect one's right to self-identify and so, in general, I am going to call you what you would like to be called.

Lesbian only has one meaning, and that’s the established definition of “ woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women” nothing more, nothing less.

Lesbian can’t be flexible because then you’ll have straight guys claiming to be lesbian because they are attracted to women. Or in the reverse women claiming to be gay men because they are attracted to guys.

Words have meanings and you can’t continue to dilute them to the point where they have no meaning and expect everyone to follow along

You know how many straight dudes would try to get with lesbians if they could say they were just male lesbians? (Because a lot of straight dudes see lesbians as a fetish, unfortunately.) It’s dangerous to change parameters like that.

[Luminesa]

Lesbian only has one meaning, and that’s the established definition of “ woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women” nothing more, nothing less.

Lesbian can’t be flexible because then you’ll have straight guys claiming to be lesbian because they are attracted to women. Or in the reverse women claiming to be gay men because they are attracted to guys.

Words have meanings and you can’t continue to dilute them to the point where they have no meaning and expect everyone to follow along

I know non-binary people that are lesbians, usually feminine non-binary claim that. Us non-binary people do shake up a lot of things, but honestly, we've been ignored and excluded for so long, and when we try to use already established words that are often close enough, we get yelled at for appropriation, but when we create neologisms, we get yelled for being special snowflakes.

Tangent aside, I rarely find it useful to police other people's identities, I guess the trolls don't count but as enbies aren't trolling anyone, except maybe transphobic people who want to hold onto an outdated stuffy view of gender that is totally inaccurate.

While non-binary people certainly exist, and nobody is claiming that they don’t, the problem with language is that it doesn’t simply change because people force it to change in a certain direction. The way we use some words might, but language itself flows generally in the direction of the majority culture. Therefore, “lesbian” is a word that means “women who like women”. The word has existed as it has for...at least 200 years now. Now, have non-binary women been acknowledged for that long? Probably depends on the culture. But unless they become the majority, the term is probably going to stay as is. Though language honestly has a flow as complicated as the Mississippi River itself, there are some definites which lead linguists to study how language develops.

[Cekoviu]

This is hard to express without sounding snarky or hostile, but words have meaning, and "pansexual lesbian" is mutually exclusive. Sexuality is much more fluid and hard to categorize in neat little boxes like some in the thread want to do, and there are women who don't fully fit either of the three on the spectrum but might consider themselves one of the three, but if you identify as bisexual or pansexual, then you aren't a lesbian. It's not "policing other people's identities" to expect them to use words in their universally agreed upon definition.

I don't know where I would fully fit on the spectrum, but I consider myself a lesbian because I'm exclusively romantically attracted to women and would only date another woman (whether trans or cis).

I'd be willing to accept that a woman who is attracted to multiple genders but exclusively or near-exclusively dates women (intentionally) is functionally a lesbian while being technically bisexual, so identifying herself as both might be justified. The same applies to men and functional heterosexuals.
Other than that, one cannot be gay/straight and bi/pan simultaneously.

[Fahran]

There's no such thing as a meaningfully non-binary man or woman. Men and women, by definition, fall into the gender binary and, in fact, define it in Western society and culture. The terms straight, gay, and lesbian do not even make sense in describing the sexual orientations of non-binary people because they aren't men and women in the conventional sense. I'd almost use the term gender-nonconforming.

[Cekoviu]

There's no such thing as a meaningfully non-binary man or woman. Men and women, by definition, fall into the gender binary and, in fact, define it in Western society and culture. The terms straight, gay, and lesbian do not even make sense in describing the sexual orientations of non-binary people because they aren't men and women in the conventional sense. I'd almost use the term gender-nonconforming.

Gay makes sense if you're non-binary and only attracted to people of the same gender (e.g. agender), but I've never met a non-binary person for whom that's true.

[Fahran]

Gay makes sense if you're non-binary and only attracted to people of the same gender (e.g. agender), but I've never met a non-binary person for whom that's true.

I was coming at this issue as someone who isn't trans or non-binary but my understanding of those terms makes them mutually exclusive. True, I've seen gay used a bit more liberally. I've seen queer used too, but it's hard to a precise read on what it means since I've seen bisexual girls who were feminine presenting and biologically female use it. Is it a gender or a sexual orientation? Or a catch-all term for anyone who isn't cishet? Yeah, I was low-key gatekeeping as an outsider but, as I said, it's hard to understand terms when they're super nebulous. And that makes widespread social acceptance a lot harder because it doesn't make sense to everyone else.

[Cekoviu]

Gay makes sense if you're non-binary and only attracted to people of the same gender (e.g. agender), but I've never met a non-binary person for whom that's true.

I was coming at this issue as someone who isn't trans or non-binary but my understanding of those terms makes them mutually exclusive. True, I've seen gay used a bit more liberally. I've seen queer used too, but it's hard to a precise read on what it means since I've seen bisexual girls who were feminine presenting and biologically female use it. Yeah, I was low-key gatekeeping as an outsider but, as I said, it's hard to understand terms when they're super nebulous. And that makes widespread social acceptance a lot harder because it doesn't make sense to everyone else.

Queer is like, generally LGBT (but genderqueer is another term for nonbinary which can be another meaning of queer).

[Fahran]

Queer is like, generally LGBT (but genderqueer is another term for nonbinary which can be another meaning of queer).

Alright, that makes sense. I was getting queer mixed up with gender-queer, I think. Which is why it made no sense to me at the time.

[Luminesa]

There's no such thing as a meaningfully non-binary man or woman. Men and women, by definition, fall into the gender binary and, in fact, define it in Western society and culture. The terms straight, gay, and lesbian do not even make sense in describing the sexual orientations of non-binary people because they aren't men and women in the conventional sense. I'd almost use the term gender-nonconforming.

I mean. non-binary is more or less an identity, one can never be biologically either one, because you can only have male or female sexual organs. Even intersex people have specifically male and female organs. The problem is even if people identify as non-binary, their body-type still says they are one or the other. So there’s that conflict, and because non-binary people are such a minority, I don’t know many studies that exist about how people are or become non-binary.

[Auzkhia]

There's no such thing as a meaningfully non-binary man or woman. Men and women, by definition, fall into the gender binary and, in fact, define it in Western society and culture. The terms straight, gay, and lesbian do not even make sense in describing the sexual orientations of non-binary people because they aren't men and women in the conventional sense. I'd almost use the term gender-nonconforming.

*is literally a non-binary woman*

:|

Lesbian only has one meaning, and that’s the established definition of “ woman who is only sexually and/or romantically attracted to other women” nothing more, nothing less.

Lesbian can’t be flexible because then you’ll have straight guys claiming to be lesbian because they are attracted to women. Or in the reverse women claiming to be gay men because they are attracted to guys.

Words have meanings and you can’t continue to dilute them to the point where they have no meaning and expect everyone to follow along

You know how many straight dudes would try to get with lesbians if they could say they were just male lesbians? (Because a lot of straight dudes see lesbians as a fetish, unfortunately.) It’s dangerous to change parameters like that.

The only people that I ever heard use that word are eggs, such as trans women or nonbinary people before they realized they were transgender.

They are lesbians, but certainly not male, they were mistaken as such.

[Luminesa]

There's no such thing as a meaningfully non-binary man or woman. Men and women, by definition, fall into the gender binary and, in fact, define it in Western society and culture. The terms straight, gay, and lesbian do not even make sense in describing the sexual orientations of non-binary people because they aren't men and women in the conventional sense. I'd almost use the term gender-nonconforming.

*is literally a non-binary woman*

:|

You know how many straight dudes would try to get with lesbians if they could say they were just male lesbians? (Because a lot of straight dudes see lesbians as a fetish, unfortunately.) It’s dangerous to change parameters like that.

The only people that I ever heard use that word are eggs, such as trans women or nonbinary people before they realized they were transgender.

They are lesbians, but certainly not male, they were mistaken as such.

Well the only way to be lesbian is, again, to be female and gay. Also...kinda misses the point of my post, in that without parameters, dudes could claim an identity which is impossible in order to take advantage of girls. Straight girls can do the same to gay guys, as well, though I’m not sure what that would be called.

Also, Fahran is not intending an attack on you, but what they are saying is that biologically, your body has hormones which place you somewhere between male and female. A third biological sex doesn’t exist, and chromosomal abnormalities don’t count.

[Fahran]

Also, Fahran is not intending an attack on you, but what they are saying is that biologically, your body has hormones which place you somewhere between male and female. A third biological sex doesn’t exist, and chromosomal abnormalities don’t count.

I would never attack someone's identity directly. My objection was more that identifying and presenting as a woman or girl puts you squarely within the binary. If your identity and presentation didn't line up, things become a bit murkier but I don't think it necessarily takes you outside of the binary. You might be recognized as a woman in some circles and not recognized as a woman in others because of how social construction works in the absence of knowledge and communication.

[Luminesa]

Also, Fahran is not intending an attack on you, but what they are saying is that biologically, your body has hormones which place you somewhere between male and female. A third biological sex doesn’t exist, and chromosomal abnormalities don’t count.

I would never attack someone's identity directly. My objection was more that identifying and presenting as a woman or girl puts you squarely within the binary. If your identity and presentation didn't line up, things become a bit murkier but I don't think it necessarily takes you outside of the binary. You might be recognized as a woman in some circles and not recognized as a woman in others because of how social construction works in the absence of knowledge and communication.

Oh I don’t disagree with you at all, I’m just saying that from what I read, Auz seemed to indicate they felt attacked, when you were trying to indicate a more nuanced point. Which you’ve also talked about in previous pages, and I feel you’ve expressed yourself a lot more eloquently and consistently than I have.

[Cekoviu]

There's no such thing as a meaningfully non-binary man or woman. Men and women, by definition, fall into the gender binary and, in fact, define it in Western society and culture. The terms straight, gay, and lesbian do not even make sense in describing the sexual orientations of non-binary people because they aren't men and women in the conventional sense. I'd almost use the term gender-nonconforming.

I mean. non-binary is more or less an identity, one can never be biologically either one, because you can only have male or female sexual organs. Even intersex people have specifically male and female organs. The problem is even if people identify as non-binary, their body-type still says they are one or the other.

This thought process is dependent on having a very simplistic understanding of the nature of gender and sex, but more importantly: why is this relevant in this discussion?

[Luminesa]

I mean. non-binary is more or less an identity, one can never be biologically either one, because you can only have male or female sexual organs. Even intersex people have specifically male and female organs. The problem is even if people identify as non-binary, their body-type still says they are one or the other.

This thought process is dependent on having a very simplistic understanding of the nature of gender and sex, but more importantly: why is this relevant in this discussion?

Well...identity is very relevant to our discussion, I think?