TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[New Bebebonia]

I've always been curious as to why NS has such a disproportionately high number of lgbt+ people as opposed to other games. I am also curious as to why the community here frowns upon free speech so much that even daring to question anything related to lgbt issues is met with instant blacklists and shunning.

[Vassenor]

I've always been curious as to why NS has such a disproportionately high number of lgbt+ people as opposed to other games. I am also curious as to why the community here frowns upon free speech so much that even daring to question anything related to lgbt issues is met with instant blacklists and shunning.

I didn't know my existence was just an opinion that needs debating.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I've always been curious as to why NS has such a disproportionately high number of lgbt+ people as opposed to other games.

- Traditionally occupied by a progressively-slanted playerbase
- Had several very determined players who successfully argued that - however politically controversial LGBT people are - rules on baiting, flaming and trolling apply equally to everyone.

I am also curious as to why the community here frowns upon free speech so much that even daring to question anything related to lgbt issues is met with instant blacklists and shunning.

We're in a big "culture war" period, people's discourse windows are closing, and everyone's threshold for declaring someone unacceptable to debate with and throwing out ideological slurs is reduced. LGBT people are often a "wedge issue" so people tend to be particularly sensitive.

These are general points, but if you're finding literally no-one willing to have a discussion with you it might also be that you're not engaging with them in a way that reads like you're coming in with good faith. Hard to say without having a sample of your conversations to look at.

[True Refuge]

I've always been curious as to why NS has such a disproportionately high number of lgbt+ people as opposed to other games. I am also curious as to why the community here frowns upon free speech so much that even daring to question anything related to lgbt issues is met with instant blacklists and shunning.

The trend is that people who question the validity GSRM rights do it in an inflammatory and/or unscientific way. What you see as "frowning upon free speech" is actually bad ideas being debated and dismissed according to their lack of merit. It takes a bit of resilience to try to defend poorly explained ideas.

Yet, it is possible to raise questions. We've recently discussed the supposedly high desistance rates of trans children (which turned out to be much more nuanced than expected, not much ammo against trans activism there) and the possibility that child abuse could influence gender identity based on an Iranian research paper (insofar as can be told it doesn't mean much against general trans activism either).

[Hediacrana]

I only saw this now, but back in February, someone actually made the effort to catalogue 92 times that the Trump administration tried to reduce LGBTQ rights up till that point. Impressive list, in all the wrong ways.

[Thermodolia]

Ya and I’m not buying the idea that a four year old has any idea what they are. This is the same woman who claimed that her two year old asked where the girl clothes are. I don’t buy it.

Ask the kid at 10 when they have a better understanding of what a girl is and not at four where they have no fucking clue what a girl or a boy are.

I knew I was a guy at 4, as did almost every other male I knew.

Did you not?

I had no concept of what that ment. I also don’t really remember anything from before 5 and if I do it’s in bits and pieces. So I highly doubt that a kid is going to understand or remember anything from that and during that time period

[Thermodolia]

I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.

Children's clothing were neutral until a certain age, but then clothing companies literally invented gender to sell more clothes.

If gender was invented by corporations doesn’t that mean that one can’t be “transgender” because gender is a made up concept?

[Auzkhia]

Children's clothing were neutral until a certain age, but then clothing companies literally invented gender to sell more clothes.

Gender was not invented by companies.

The joke
->
Your head

I only saw this now, but back in February, someone actually made the effort to catalogue 92 times that the Trump administration tried to reduce LGBTQ rights up till that point. Impressive list, in all the wrong ways.

It's definitely over 100 now.

I've always been curious as to why NS has such a disproportionately high number of lgbt+ people as opposed to other games. I am also curious as to why the community here frowns upon free speech so much that even daring to question anything related to lgbt issues is met with instant blacklists and shunning.

>Free speech

Deliberate misgendering is illegal on NS, maybe in other spaces you could be as "free" to do that, however, that action is the highest order of shitgibbonery, please consider not doing that. Using someone's pronouns isn't compelled speech, it's not like you'll got to a Canadian jail or anything.

And, mind you a lot of "questions and concerns" are time wasting fillbustering bigotry, and trans people often have our rights questioned and jeopardized, so excuse us for being a little defensive and repeating phrases like "trans women are women" forever. As a group, trans people are still stuck in the rhetorical corner.

[Thermodolia]

Gender was not invented by companies.

The joke
->
Your head

I only saw this now, but back in February, someone actually made the effort to catalogue 92 times that the Trump administration tried to reduce LGBTQ rights up till that point. Impressive list, in all the wrong ways.

It's definitely over 100 now.

I've always been curious as to why NS has such a disproportionately high number of lgbt+ people as opposed to other games. I am also curious as to why the community here frowns upon free speech so much that even daring to question anything related to lgbt issues is met with instant blacklists and shunning.

>Free speech

Deliberate misgendering is illegal on NS, maybe in other spaces you could be as "free" to do that, however, that action is the highest order of shitgibbonery, please consider not doing that. Using someone's pronouns isn't compelled speech, it's not like you'll got to a Canadian jail or anything.

And, mind you a lot of "questions and concerns" are time wasting fillbustering bigotry, and trans people often have our rights questioned and jeopardized, so excuse us for being a little defensive and repeating phrases like "trans women are women" forever. As a group, trans people are still stuck in the rhetorical corner.

> Canadian Jail

Being told to not be a naughty boy isn’t much of a jail. Unless they lock you up until you apologize

[Ifreann]

Children's clothing were neutral until a certain age, but then clothing companies literally invented gender to sell more clothes.

If gender was invented by corporations doesn’t that mean that one can’t be “transgender” because gender is a made up concept?

If money was invented by governments, does that mean one can't be rich?

[Thermodolia]

If gender was invented by corporations doesn’t that mean that one can’t be “transgender” because gender is a made up concept?

If money was invented by governments, does that mean one can't be rich?

Doesn’t work that way. Rich doesn’t need to rely on money in order to work. While transgender does rely on gender being real as the idea is changing from one gender to the other. If the idea is that gender is bupkis then one can’t really be transgender, they would be transsexual.

[Nakena]

It's definitely over 100 now.

Not saying that there isnt some really awful stuff amongst it, but some has just been added so that the numbers go up really high.

[Thermodolia]

It's definitely over 100 now.

Not saying that there isnt some really awful stuff amongst it, but some has just been added so that the numbers go up really high.

Like this one:

“More than 13,000 federal workers identifying as LGBTQ do not receive a paycheck as President Trump’s government shutdown becomes the longest shut down in U.S. history.”

Nobody got paid then. Nobody. It’s wasn’t like they where singled out, literally nobody got paid

[Ifreann]

If money was invented by governments, does that mean one can't be rich?

Doesn’t work that way. Rich doesn’t need to rely on money in order to work.

How can you be rich if money doesn't real? How can you be poor? How do you pay for your internet connection? Are we even having this conversation?

While transgender does rely on gender being real as the idea is changing from one gender to the other. If the idea is that gender is bupkis then one can’t really be transgender, they would be transsexual.

The army is a made up thing. Were you really a soldier?

[Thermodolia]

Doesn’t work that way. Rich doesn’t need to rely on money in order to work.

How can you be rich if money doesn't real? How can you be poor? How do you pay for your internet connection? Are we even having this conversation?

You can have lots of land, valuable goods, animals, and other things besides money to be rich. To be considered transgender gender must exist. To say otherwise is silly.

While transgender does rely on gender being real as the idea is changing from one gender to the other. If the idea is that gender is bupkis then one can’t really be transgender, they would be transsexual.

The army is a made up thing. Were you really a soldier?[/quote]
Fighting forces such as the military are not made up things, so no that’s not a good point at all. And besides I’m not the one who claimed that gender wasn’t real, just brought up an interesting philosophical question.

[Fahran]

Gender was not invented by companies.

The joke
->
Your head

In my defense, a number of people have had some rather strange perspectives on gender, transitioning, and a number of related subjects in this thread. It's a bit difficult to figure out who's joking and who's serious at times.

[Ifreann]

How can you be rich if money doesn't real? How can you be poor? How do you pay for your internet connection? Are we even having this conversation?

You can have lots of land, valuable goods, animals, and other things besides money to be rich. To be considered transgender gender must exist. To say otherwise is silly.

Auzkhia jokes that clothing companies invented gender. You responded that that would mean that being trans isn't real. I'm pointing out that money was invented. Does that mean that having lots of money isn't real? Does that mean that having no money isn't real? Does that mean that loans aren't real? Does that mean that wages aren't real?

The army is a made up thing. Were you really a soldier?

Fighting forces such as the military are not made up things, so no that’s not a good point at all. And besides I’m not the one who claimed that gender wasn’t real, just brought up an interesting philosophical question.

The army is entirely a made up thing. It wasn't discovered in a cave or found growing on a tree, the government invented it, gave it a name, made up rules for it. It's all invented. Does that mean it isn't real?

[Auzkhia]

Social construct =/= not literally existing

I remember some TERF I knew IRL saying "if gender isn't real, then why do trans people transition?"

People have bodily autonomy, besides they transition to relieve gender dysphoria or increase gender euphoria. Those are reasons why, and believe in gender as social constructs goes in rejection that gender is strictly biological, being determined by sex traits.

[True Refuge]

How did we get this far in over an obvious joke?

[Luminesa]

Grenartia said that anyone who was anti-abortion should have their words taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't have made the comment otherwise, since uhhhh they’ve been responding to me when my sig has ‘pro-life’ in red letters.

Making me look bad is easy when you take my words out of context.

You know...and this is just a thought...you’re not required to respond to every single line if you think it’s all “bull****”.

Trust me, there's plenty of posts I didn't respond to. Also, letting blatant bullshit about my people go unanswered in this thread only allows said bullshit to attain an air of legitimacy. I have not only a right to challenge it, but an ethical duty to.

Also, there is definitely a problem with over-diagnosing certain conditions, though this is more dependent on the demographics of the individuals. African-American children get over-diagnosed with intellectual disorders, for example. I’m glad you got the help you needed, but the problem does exist outside of you. This is why research into such conditions is ongoing.

As for the part I missed...I genuinely did not miss it out of any sort of aimed malice. I think I skimmed too fast and missed it. It happens.

I recommend altering your posting habits accordingly. If you're going to respond to a post, make damn sure you didn't "skim over it". Read it as fully as you can before you respond to it. That's how I avoid that mistake entirely.

Honestly, the topic of gender with tiny children comes up so casually and inconsistently, that it usually does not require any sort of serious intervention to talk about the topic. I imagine you can break down almost any subject for a small child, but they also have to be willing to listen. Part of teaching isn’t just explaining material well, it’s also understanding each individual child where they are. At the same time, it’s also gauging how much the children will be interested in the topic. If even 8th graders can be immature about penis jokes, you can probably imagine how much listening a typical 4-year-old would do. From my experience, tiny children are mostly concerned about playing and loving their families.

Sure, but children are also curious, and curiosity is a great opportunity for learning.

On a slight tangent, given that Therm has experience with the topic of child abuse, I don’t think it’s fair to say he is making his remarks out of thin air or out of some sort of concern-trolling. I think it’s only fair to try and understand his place

Did it not occur to you that I also happen to have some experience on the topic of child abuse? Did it not occur to you that I might already understand his position, backwards and forwards?

instead of trying to throw him out for not “being enough of an ally”.

That's not what's happening here.

Yeah you probably should have put that quote in, as what you were referring to was not clear at all.

The actual quote she's pulling from, complete with context.

More like, if you're anti-abortion, anti-marriage equality, and anti-transgender, then anything you say on those subjects should be taken with a massive grain of salt.

It shouldn't at all be controversial to say this, any more than it should be controversial to say you shouldn't trust Flat Earthers about geography (or a host of other subjects that prove the Earth is round). I completely stand by what I actually said.

There's two possibilities here. Either Lumi is blatantly lying by omission to gain sympathy points (which I really wouldn't want her to be guilty of), or she had another one of her "I skimmed too fast" moments. Neither is a good look for her, although one is far and away much better to be guilty of than the other. I'm more than willing to accept that she simply skimmed too fast, and will cite this as proof that she needs to actually make sure she reads people's posts before responding or reacting to them, especially since it can lead to others assuming the worst about her (which is the only reason I mentioned the other possibility).

This is an obscure forum on the Internet. I think you’re taking it far too seriously. There’s not an “ethical duty”. If you’re worried about that, Facebook is going to be a lot more influential than this little place.

Admittedly, skimming is a habit I’ve had for a long time. Oftentimes it works fine for me. Sometimes it doesn’t. It’s really not a big deal, and it’s not your job to police how I read. My reading abilities are far from sub-par, being a fast reader means sometimes you have to read something twice. Or you just don’t turn it into a personal issue.

It did, which is why I figured you would be less of a hostile gatekeeper, fearing people who disagree with whatever opinions you might have.

Feh, I guess it still means I can never have a discussion with you on abortion, since my views on the topic should be taken with a grain of salt?

[True Refuge]

Making me look bad is easy when you take my words out of context.



Trust me, there's plenty of posts I didn't respond to. Also, letting blatant bullshit about my people go unanswered in this thread only allows said bullshit to attain an air of legitimacy. I have not only a right to challenge it, but an ethical duty to.




I recommend altering your posting habits accordingly. If you're going to respond to a post, make damn sure you didn't "skim over it". Read it as fully as you can before you respond to it. That's how I avoid that mistake entirely.



Sure, but children are also curious, and curiosity is a great opportunity for learning.



Did it not occur to you that I also happen to have some experience on the topic of child abuse? Did it not occur to you that I might already understand his position, backwards and forwards?



That's not what's happening here.



The actual quote she's pulling from, complete with context.



It shouldn't at all be controversial to say this, any more than it should be controversial to say you shouldn't trust Flat Earthers about geography (or a host of other subjects that prove the Earth is round). I completely stand by what I actually said.

There's two possibilities here. Either Lumi is blatantly lying by omission to gain sympathy points (which I really wouldn't want her to be guilty of), or she had another one of her "I skimmed too fast" moments. Neither is a good look for her, although one is far and away much better to be guilty of than the other. I'm more than willing to accept that she simply skimmed too fast, and will cite this as proof that she needs to actually make sure she reads people's posts before responding or reacting to them, especially since it can lead to others assuming the worst about her (which is the only reason I mentioned the other possibility).

This is an obscure forum on the Internet. I think you’re taking it far too seriously. There’s not an “ethical duty”. If you’re worried about that, Facebook is going to be a lot more influential than this little place.

Admittedly, skimming is a habit I’ve had for a long time. Oftentimes it works fine for me. Sometimes it doesn’t. It’s really not a big deal, and it’s not your job to police how I read. My reading abilities are far from sub-par, being a fast reader means sometimes you have to read something twice. Or you just don’t turn it into a personal issue.

It did, which is why I figured you would be less of a hostile gatekeeper, fearing people who disagree with whatever opinions you might have.

Feh, I guess it still means I can never have a discussion with you on abortion, since my views on the topic should be taken with a grain of salt?

Personal ethics are a thing.

Thermodolia has made it clear that they're not supportive of transitioning, and used a bunch of bad interpretations to justify the position. They're not in favour of puberty blockers based on a bunch of unfalsifiable hypotheticals and mischaracterisations of the social-hormonal-surgical transition process. These are not pro-trans opinions. It's not gatekeeping to say they're not.

[New haven america]

I knew I was a guy at 4, as did almost every other male I knew.

Did you not?

I had no concept of what that ment. I also don’t really remember anything from before 5 and if I do it’s in bits and pieces. So I highly doubt that a kid is going to understand or remember anything from that and during that time period

Again, I knew I was a guy by 4, as did almost every other male I knew. Also, my memory starts at 2 1/2 years old, with my first one being me playing with my cats. (One of them was a dark red tabby and the other was a black and white Norwegian forest cat)

Have you ever considered the idea that everyone develops differently and at different times?

[Auzkhia]

How did we get this far in over an obvious joke?

Apparently NSG is serious business only.

I was referencing this meme, I guess not everyone is that savvy

[The Rich Port]

What exactly is their problem?

Depressed, anxious, dysphoric, family issues?

Bulimia, anorexia... all of the above.

Believe it or not, I've met people who have all of those and more.

Oh, no. I haven’t encountered anyone but I don’t know if you know, I help at a transgender help line and I’m just seeking information here among other sources for the eventuality that a genderqueer person calls for help. I’d like to have an info base on possible ways for me to proceed with said help.

One of the things that has helped me most, and that I believe to be helpful in general, is meeting and seeing others like me - preferably offline. It helps to know one isn't the only one facing these issues. In absence of that, reassurance from a not-genderqueer person that there are others facing similar issues is helpful too.

So you’d say validation of their identity is a good starting point? Silly question, Nana. Of course it is. Thanks for your take, Hedri.

Is genderfluid the same thing as genderqueer... Am I genderfluid or genderqueer. Wait. What's pangender.

Well in case a genderfluid person calls, they are comfortable as both male and female, so don't be surprised if they show both kinds of tertiary sexual characteristics or male or female mannerisms.

As for helping them, in terms of emotional support... Well, it really depends from case to case. Ask them about their life.

In my experience... Lots of people are miserable because they keep trying to be something they're not, because it's what is required of them, whether by their family, by their job, by their lover, by their group of friends, by society. I was depressed for so long because I lacked closure of who I am.

I tried to find meaning and closure in religion, I ended up even more depressed when the answers didn't make sense and only made me realize how empty and black the universe is. I sought satisfaction in my work, in being needed and in helping people and being of service, of being part of a community of successful professionals with shared goals and shared impact on the world. Nobody gives a shit about you at work, I quickly found out. Everyone is too busy being tired, being obsessive, and I've had to stand by too many times watching some asshole who's worked here longer than I have take out their frustrations on some intern or some employee, and then they fire or reprimand them when they run home crying, and then feeling betrayed when I report them to HR because I don't know how important the work they do is and how this will ruin them and how could I do this to them.

I tried to find love in pretty, smart people, and the fun that we could get up to. So many of them with shriveled up hearts and personalities of cardboard, so caught up in whatever they were caught up in at the time that they were terrified of feeling a real emotion for once.

[Nakena]

Oh, no. I haven’t encountered anyone but I don’t know if you know, I help at a transgender help line and I’m just seeking information here among other sources for the eventuality that a genderqueer person calls for help. I’d like to have an info base on possible ways for me to proceed with said help.



So you’d say validation of their identity is a good starting point? Silly question, Nana. Of course it is. Thanks for your take, Hedri.

Is genderfluid the same thing as genderqueer... Am I genderfluid or genderqueer. Wait. What's pangender.

Well in case a genderfluid person calls, they are comfortable as both male and female, so don't be surprised if they show both kinds of tertiary sexual characteristics or male or female mannerisms.

As for helping them, in terms of emotional support... Well, it really depends from case to case. Ask them about their life.

In my experience... Lots of people are miserable because they keep trying to be something they're not, because it's what is required of them, whether by their family, by their job, by their lover, by their group of friends, by society. I was depressed for so long because I lacked closure of who I am.

I tried to find meaning and closure in religion, I ended up even more depressed when the answers didn't make sense and only made me realize how empty and black the universe is. I sought satisfaction in my work, in being needed and in helping people and being of service, of being part of a community of successful professionals with shared goals and shared impact on the world. Nobody gives a shit about you at work, I quickly found out. Everyone is too busy being tired, being obsessive, and I've had to stand by too many times watching some asshole who's worked here longer than I have take out their frustrations on some intern or some employee, and then they fire or reprimand them when they run home crying, and then feeling betrayed when I report them to HR because I don't know how important the work they do is and how this will ruin them and how could I do this to them.

I tried to find love in pretty, smart people, and the fun that we could get up to. So many of them with shriveled up hearts and personalities of cardboard, so caught up in whatever they were caught up in at the time that they were terrified of feeling a real emotion for once.

That sounds pretty depressing.