TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Cekoviu]

I'm not openly trans except in the specifically LGBT spaces I go to, so I haven't had much opportunity for that to be said to me. I'd probably be visibly taken aback, but I'd likely just answer it with "no" because that's the truth.

He was taken aback. I honestly don’t know why it would matter. In the end, you’re not that person anymore. He said that it wasn’t a denial of his past but rather that it doesn’t matter for his present or future self.

Yeah, definitely.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Which isn't saying much if you're only going off blatantly false artistic interpretations of the character.

It's true, though there's no blatant interpretation here. The entire show is actually really ambiguous about the whole ordeal, if you actually watched it.
""""Blatantly false"""" is a fucking riot given how wrong your position is.

It's explicitly what happened.

Nope.

"It's okay for me to agree with blatant transphobia if I plug my ears and pretend that it's the valid interpretation of something!!1!"

10/10 as always.

It is though, you're pretending she's trans because some jagoff on Youtube told you to and acting like it's the valid interpretation.
Your utter lack of self-awareness has no charm as always smh

Anyway, your incredibly defensive responses betray your lack of understanding.
Case in point, Lily Hoshikawa is not trans, though from certain angles (and with some cherrypicking) she does look that way. This argument is over, go and parrot lies about another character now.

A lot of the people on the trap side appear mainly to back their view up by the fact that she only identifies as a girl due to her identity as an idol, and the fact that "Lily" is just her stage name. I haven't seen evidence of those though. But then, I don't watch the show, so eh. I think it's ambiguous, but I'm leaning toward the trans side.

[Proctopeo]

It's true, though there's no blatant interpretation here. The entire show is actually really ambiguous about the whole ordeal, if you actually watched it.
""""Blatantly false"""" is a fucking riot given how wrong your position is.


Nope.


It is though, you're pretending she's trans because some jagoff on Youtube told you to and acting like it's the valid interpretation.
Your utter lack of self-awareness has no charm as always smh

Anyway, your incredibly defensive responses betray your lack of understanding.
Case in point, Lily Hoshikawa is not trans, though from certain angles (and with some cherrypicking) she does look that way. This argument is over, go and parrot lies about another character now.

A lot of the people on the trap side appear mainly to back their view up by the fact that she only identifies as a girl due to her identity as an idol, and the fact that "Lily" is just her stage name. I haven't seen evidence of those though. But then, I don't watch the show, so eh. I think it's ambiguous, but I'm leaning toward the trans side.

It is ambiguous for sure. The underlined is what can be understood from the entire episode seen as a whole, not just dialogue picked out of context (as all "proof" for the other side is).

Otherwise there's absolutely nothing to go off of, besides the interpretation of Japanese fans (due to them having the correct cultural context for the entire thing, they're a better source than American ones for sure). I bet if/when Season 2 comes around that it'll get confirmed one way or another, if it's not completely forgotten about due to nobody in the Japanese audience being confused.

[Torrocca]

It's true, though there's no blatant interpretation here. The entire show is actually really ambiguous about the whole ordeal, if you actually watched it.
""""Blatantly false"""" is a fucking riot given how wrong your position is.


Nope.


It is though, you're pretending she's trans because some jagoff on Youtube told you to and acting like it's the valid interpretation.
Your utter lack of self-awareness has no charm as always smh

Anyway, your incredibly defensive responses betray your lack of understanding.
Case in point, Lily Hoshikawa is not trans, though from certain angles (and with some cherrypicking) she does look that way. This argument is over, go and parrot lies about another character now.

A lot of the people on the trap side appear mainly to back their view up by the fact that she only identifies as a girl due to her identity as an idol, and the fact that "Lily" is just her stage name. I haven't seen evidence of those though. But then, I don't watch the show, so eh. I think it's ambiguous, but I'm leaning toward the trans side.

I already explained why Lily being trans isn't up for interpretation, which funnily enough went unchallenged after posting it:

It's true, though there's no blatant interpretation here. The entire show is actually really ambiguous about the whole ordeal, if you actually watched it.
""""Blatantly false"""" is a fucking riot given how wrong your position is.

Hmm, let's see...

Lily:

• Openly identifies as a girl
• Exclusively uses the name Lily
• Explicitly points out (timestamp 12:09 in the episode) that she has a deadname which she dropped
• Experienced mental shock from outright gender dysphoria because of the appearance of facial hair
• Literally says in the same episode in a group discussion that she's still Lily and always will be Lily, which blatantly shows her foregoing any and all identification as a boy
• Doubles down and reemphasizes that same point about a minute later (at 13:30)
• Literally the entire group accepts her as a girl in the very next scene

Yeah, chief, I'm gonna go with a big, fat "you're fucking wrong" here.

[Proctopeo]

A lot of the people on the trap side appear mainly to back their view up by the fact that she only identifies as a girl due to her identity as an idol, and the fact that "Lily" is just her stage name. I haven't seen evidence of those though. But then, I don't watch the show, so eh. I think it's ambiguous, but I'm leaning toward the trans side.

I already explained why Lily being trans isn't up for interpretation, which funnily enough went unchallenged after posting it:

It went """"unchallenged"""" because 1) I was tired of talking to a brick wall and 2) You said a lot of wrong shit you'll never willingly acknowledge as wrong, so the effort just really isn't worth it. It's better to let you boost your ego with a """"victory"""".

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

A lot of the people on the trap side appear mainly to back their view up by the fact that she only identifies as a girl due to her identity as an idol, and the fact that "Lily" is just her stage name. I haven't seen evidence of those though. But then, I don't watch the show, so eh. I think it's ambiguous, but I'm leaning toward the trans side.

It is ambiguous for sure. The underlined is what can be understood from the entire episode seen as a whole, not just dialogue picked out of context (as all "proof" for the other side is).

Otherwise there's absolutely nothing to go off of, besides the interpretation of Japanese fans (due to them having the correct cultural context for the entire thing, they're a better source than American ones for sure). I bet if/when Season 2 comes around that it'll get confirmed one way or another, if it's not completely forgotten about due to nobody in the Japanese audience being confused.

Is there a video of a Japanese fan or of the creators explaining why they think Lily is a trap rather than trans?

[Proctopeo]

It is ambiguous for sure. The underlined is what can be understood from the entire episode seen as a whole, not just dialogue picked out of context (as all "proof" for the other side is).

Otherwise there's absolutely nothing to go off of, besides the interpretation of Japanese fans (due to them having the correct cultural context for the entire thing, they're a better source than American ones for sure). I bet if/when Season 2 comes around that it'll get confirmed one way or another, if it's not completely forgotten about due to nobody in the Japanese audience being confused.

Is there a video of a Japanese fan or of the creators explaining why they think Lily is a trap rather than trans?

Fans, maybe, creators, no. If the creators said something, it wouldn't be up for debate, would it? (Actually yes, but a lot less, just see common anime traps like Bridget, Astolfo, and Felix Argyle)
That's why you turn to Pixiv.

I'll look for any video from a Japanese fan and report back if there is one with an English translation.

[Torrocca]

I already explained why Lily being trans isn't up for interpretation, which funnily enough went unchallenged after posting it:

It went """"unchallenged"""" because 1) I was tired of talking to a brick wall and 2) You said a lot of wrong shit you'll never willingly acknowledge as wrong, so the effort just really isn't worth it. It's better to let you boost your ego with a """"victory"""".

"yOu SaiD a LoT oF wRoNg ShiT yOu'LL nEvEr WiLLiNgLy AcKnOwLeDgE aS wRoNg!!1!"

Hun, in case you've forgotten, debate's just as much about convincing your audience as it is about convincing your opponent. It's not my fault you can't conjure up any good rebuttals to me directly using the source material wherein Lily, the trans girl that she obviously is, explicitly says that she's a girl who used to be a boy ("That was my old name" (again, timestamp 12:09 in the episode), "I'm not Masao anymore! My name is Lily!" (timestamp 13:30) and "she" and "Lily-chan" (timestamp literally just about any time the rest of the cast are talking about/to Lily) are dead fucking giveaways to how utterly fucking wrong you are). Just because you apparently elicit some sort of fucked-up satisfaction from treating trans women like we're "traps" - especially considering how fervently you're trying and failing to defend your asinine arguments here about how Lily's not trans - doesn't make you any less wrong.

You're entirely welcome to stop shoving your head into the sand and plugging your ears just because you're wrong at any time.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Is there a video of a Japanese fan or of the creators explaining why they think Lily is a trap rather than trans?

Fans, maybe, creators, no. If the creators said something, it wouldn't be up for debate, would it? (Actually yes, but a lot less, just see common anime traps like Bridget, Astolfo, and Felix Argyle)
That's why you turn to Pixiv.

I'll look for any video from a Japanese fan and report back if there is one with an English translation.

All I see on Pixiv after typing "Lily Zombieland Saga" is fanart.

[Torrocca]

Fans, maybe, creators, no. If the creators said something, it wouldn't be up for debate, would it? (Actually yes, but a lot less, just see common anime traps like Bridget, Astolfo, and Felix Argyle)
That's why you turn to Pixiv.

I'll look for any video from a Japanese fan and report back if there is one with an English translation.

All I see on Pixiv after typing "Lily Zombieland Saga" is fanart.

It's certainly fascinating how Proct's """best""" argument for why a trans character isn't trans is... fanart. I'm sure you can see how dumb that kind of argument is, right Xeno?

[Proctopeo]

It went """"unchallenged"""" because 1) I was tired of talking to a brick wall and 2) You said a lot of wrong shit you'll never willingly acknowledge as wrong, so the effort just really isn't worth it. It's better to let you boost your ego with a """"victory"""".

You're entirely welcome to stop shoving your head into the sand and plugging your ears just because you're wrong at any time.

Talk about getting high on your own farts, Jesus Christ.
I think we're done here, when you come down from your ego ballooning to the size of a blimp, then maybe we can talk like civilized adults.

Fans, maybe, creators, no. If the creators said something, it wouldn't be up for debate, would it? (Actually yes, but a lot less, just see common anime traps like Bridget, Astolfo, and Felix Argyle)
That's why you turn to Pixiv.

I'll look for any video from a Japanese fan and report back if there is one with an English translation.

All I see on Pixiv after typing "Lily Zombieland Saga" is fanart.

Check the tags. And compare the tag differences between Western and Eastern art.
You might notice a pattern, though I imagine it's less pronounced than it was during the true heat of this debate.

All I see on Pixiv after typing "Lily Zombieland Saga" is fanart.

It's certainly fascinating how Proct's """best""" argument for why a trans character isn't trans is... fanart. I'm sure you can see how dumb that kind of argument is, right Xeno?

Mmm, I see what you're doing here, with Xeno, and I don't think it's very nice of you. As for the spittle you're passing for an argument here... well, the interpretation of Japanese fans is inherently more accurate than Western fans. Much like with American cartoons, the initial context is what we should work with here, and seeing what fanart of Lily Hoshikawa is tagged as is a good way to check.
Again, before making a full judgement, we should wait for word of god here, instead of interpretations, even though it's easy to fall into, and I'm by no means innocent of it myself.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

All I see on Pixiv after typing "Lily Zombieland Saga" is fanart.

It's certainly fascinating how Proct's """best""" argument for why a trans character isn't trans is... fanart. I'm sure you can see how dumb that kind of argument is, right Xeno?

Now now. Deal with his points rather than discrediting them out of hand. You two need to stop being at each others' throats and just hecking TALK for once. (Or kiss).

[Torrocca]

You're entirely welcome to stop shoving your head into the sand and plugging your ears just because you're wrong at any time.

Talk about getting high on your own farts, Jesus Christ.
I think we're done here, when you come down from your ego ballooning to the size of a blimp, then maybe we can talk like civilized adults.

There's no civilized way to talk about your blatant disregard for the fact that this show's character, Lily, openly identifies as a girl, not a boy, despite being AMAB, and thus is indeed trans, as I've shown with the actual source material that you're deliberately ignoring by quite blatantly cutting it out of my post that you quoted. It doesn't matter how much you lavish at the thought of using a race-based appeal to authority by citing moronic fans as your definitive proof that Lily isn't a trans girl; she's explicitly written as a trans girl who identifies as a girl who was AMAB, and no amount of fandom stupidity changes that. So, yes, actually, we are done here, just not for any particular reason that you think we're done here.

[Torrocca]

It's certainly fascinating how Proct's """best""" argument for why a trans character isn't trans is... fanart. I'm sure you can see how dumb that kind of argument is, right Xeno?

Now now. Deal with his points rather than discrediting them out of hand. You two need to stop being at each others' throats and just hecking TALK for once. (Or kiss).

His points are shit and I've explicitly laid out why they're shit by using the actual source material that is the show itself. Proct's point about Japanese fans calling Lily a boy is asinine bullshit specifically on account of what the show itself says about Lily.

[Andsed]

All I see on Pixiv after typing "Lily Zombieland Saga" is fanart.

Check the tags. And compare the tag differences between Western and Eastern art.
You might notice a pattern, though I imagine it's less pronounced than it was during the true heat of this debate.

TBH dude using fanart based on fan interpretations is a pretty weak argument.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Check the tags. And compare the tag differences between Western and Eastern art.
You might notice a pattern, though I imagine it's less pronounced than it was during the true heat of this debate.

I can't read Japanese. From the tags that were in English, I noticed a fair amount of "girl," "loli" and a couple of "trans." But no traps, shotas or boys. Maybe I would see those if I could read Japanese though.

Mmm, I see what you're doing here, with Xeno, and I don't think it's very nice of you.

What is she doing here with me?

[Torrocca]

Check the tags. And compare the tag differences between Western and Eastern art.
You might notice a pattern, though I imagine it's less pronounced than it was during the true heat of this debate.

TBH dude using fanart based on fan interpretations is a pretty weak argument.

It's the fucking strangest appeal to authority ever, not just because he's putting Japanese people on a pedestal for this but also because those people calling Lily a boy are also running directly contrary to what the show itself is saying. I've laid it out twice now from the very source that is the show itself how the character, who was AMAB and originally named Masao Go, identifies as a girl named Lily and is thus a trans girl because she identifies as a girl named Lily. It's even more damning because the show also explicitly shows that the whole rest of the cast of main characters also openly accept Lily as a girl.

[Proctopeo]

Talk about getting high on your own farts, Jesus Christ.
I think we're done here, when you come down from your ego ballooning to the size of a blimp, then maybe we can talk like civilized adults.

There's no civilized way to talk about your blatant disregard for the fact that this show's character, Lily, openly identifies as a girl, not a boy, despite AMAB, and thus is indeed trans, as I've shown with the actual source material that you're deliberately ignoring by quite blatantly cutting it out of my post that you quoted. It doesn't matter how much you lavish at the thought of using a race-based appeal to authority by citing moronic fans as your definitive proof that Lily isn't a trans girl; she's explicitly written as a trans girl who identifies as a girl who was AMAB, and no amount of fandom stupidity changes that. So, yes, actually, we are done here, just not for any particular reason that you think we're done here.

Yes, but no, as this "lily is trans!" shit is only a product of the Western fanbase, so a """"race-based appeal to authority"""" is completely valid here. Who am I gonna believe? A few ideologically-entrenched people, few to none of whom actually watch anime at all, or multiple hundreds of Japanese fans?

Check the tags. And compare the tag differences between Western and Eastern art.
You might notice a pattern, though I imagine it's less pronounced than it was during the true heat of this debate.

I can't read Japanese. From the tags that were in English, I noticed a fair amount of "girl," "loli" and a couple of "trans." But no traps, shotas or boys. Maybe I would see those if I could read Japanese though.

If you log in, common tags will get translated into English. Japanese artists almost exclusively either 1) tag nothing relevant or 2) tag with terms like "trap" and "shota".

Mmm, I see what you're doing here, with Xeno, and I don't think it's very nice of you.

What is she doing here with me?

Trying to be buddy-buddy in a very fake, plastic way.

Check the tags. And compare the tag differences between Western and Eastern art.
You might notice a pattern, though I imagine it's less pronounced than it was during the true heat of this debate.

TBH dude using fanart based on fan interpretations is a pretty weak argument.

It's by no means weaker than just using a personal interpretation. From a non-fans, no less.

The original Japanese may bring more insight into things, but accounts from people who do speak Japanese have been mixed between the three options.

[Torrocca]

There's no civilized way to talk about your blatant disregard for the fact that this show's character, Lily, openly identifies as a girl, not a boy, despite AMAB, and thus is indeed trans, as I've shown with the actual source material that you're deliberately ignoring by quite blatantly cutting it out of my post that you quoted. It doesn't matter how much you lavish at the thought of using a race-based appeal to authority by citing moronic fans as your definitive proof that Lily isn't a trans girl; she's explicitly written as a trans girl who identifies as a girl who was AMAB, and no amount of fandom stupidity changes that. So, yes, actually, we are done here, just not for any particular reason that you think we're done here.

Yes, but no, as this "lily is trans!" shit is only a product of the Western fanbase, so a """"race-based appeal to authority"""" is completely valid here. Who am I gonna believe? A few ideologically-entrenched people, few to none of whom actually watch anime at all, or multiple hundreds of Japanese fans?

"I think we're done here"

I wonder what happened to that?

Regardless, I don't give a shit who you believe because your interpretation is still the wrong one. Only one of us here is using the source material itself as proof that Lily's trans, and it sure as shit isn't you.

[Proctopeo]

Yes, but no, as this "lily is trans!" shit is only a product of the Western fanbase, so a """"race-based appeal to authority"""" is completely valid here. Who am I gonna believe? A few ideologically-entrenched people, few to none of whom actually watch anime at all, or multiple hundreds of Japanese fans?

"I think we're done here"

I wonder what happened to that?

You, deciding that we're not.

Regardless, I don't give a shit who you believe because your interpretation is still the wrong one. Only one of us here is using the source translated, potentially misleading (but the jury's out here) material itself as proof that Lily's trans, and it sure as shit isn't you.

FTFY

Anyway, we really are done here now, you can continue in your delusions (and your parroting of the """"interpretations"""" of notorious liars and shitty people) in peace if you wish, just clean up after the circlejerk, kay?

---

Back to my response to Gren's call for suggestions...

Don't forget my suggestions.

In terms of actual trans characters that haven't already been mentioned, there's that one Beauty from the Battle Maison in Pokemon who said she was a Black Belt/Karate King six months prior, and Beatrice from Umineko. The latter, being not just a one-off NPC, is someone I recommend for the poll.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

If you log in, common tags will get translated into English. Japanese artists almost exclusively either 1) tag nothing relevant or 2) tag with terms like "trap" and "shota".

I only saw one piece of fanart with the tags "femboy" and "shota" but it also had the tag "loli."

Trying to be buddy-buddy in a very fake, plastic way.

I don't think that's true.

[Torrocca]

"I think we're done here"

I wonder what happened to that?

You, deciding that we're not.

You're the one who wanted to bring an end to it, not me. I'm perfectly content with continuing to smackdown your asinine screaming over ThE JaPaNeSe FaNs as your definitive proof.

Regardless, I don't give a shit who you believe because your interpretation is still the wrong one. Only one of us here is using the source translated, potentially misleading (but the jury's out here) material itself as proof that Lily's trans, and it sure as shit isn't you.

FTFY

"ThE tRaNsLaTiOn MiGhT bE wRoNg, ThErEfOrE i'M riGhT!!1!"

If anything, the translation is less explicit about Lily being trans. People who speak Japanese are explicitly pointing out that the Japanese translation more explicitly shows that Lily's trans. Even the fucking voice actress for Lily say's that she's Lily.

You're fucking wrong, Proct.

Anyway, we really are done here now, you can continue in your delusions (and your parroting of the """"interpretations"""" of notorious liars and shitty people) in peace if you wish, just clean up after the circlejerk, kay?

Go ahead and enjoy your unearned smugness from simply repeating "bUt ThE fAnS!!1!" over and over again and pretending you """won""" this argument, then. Like you said, we're done here, so I'm sure you won't bother responding again.

[Torrocca]

Also, in regards to suggestions for the next poll, I wish to now officially put forth a character: Lily Hoshikawa.

[Cekoviu]

Also, in regards to suggestions for the next poll, I wish to now officially put forth a character: Lily Hoshikawa.

Tbh, I'm surprised Proctopeo didn't dispute my Vivian suggestion, since she's about as obviously trans as Lily is and there has similarly been unwarranted debate over it. I was prepared for a big ol' debate on that one and I got nothing.

[Torrocca]

Also, in regards to suggestions for the next poll, I wish to now officially put forth a character: Lily Hoshikawa.

Tbh, I'm surprised Proctopeo didn't dispute my Vivian suggestion, since she's about as obviously trans as Lily is and there has similarly been unwarranted debate over it. I was prepared for a big ol' debate on that one and I got nothing.

I'll gladly throw down for a round two if he tries disputing that next. :3