TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

but kinkshaming is her kink

The paradox of tolerance?

[Hediacrana]

YKINMKBYKIOK.

Literally what

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/YKINMKBYKIOK - the non-kinkshamy way to indicate you're not into whatever the other person(s) are into.

[Cekoviu]

but kinkshaming is her kink

The paradox of tolerance?

It's not an actual paradox, as that would only imply under a pro-kink policy that kinkshaming is fine as long as the target consents enthusiastically. Most instances don't fall under that category.

[Cekoviu]

Literally what

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/YKINMKBYKIOK - the non-kinkshamy way to indicate you're not into whatever the other person(s) are into.

Just... why

[Proctopeo]

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/YKINMKBYKIOK - the non-kinkshamy way to indicate you're not into whatever the other person(s) are into.

Just... why

It's ykinmkbykiokinky

[The Rich Port]

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/YKINMKBYKIOK - the non-kinkshamy way to indicate you're not into whatever the other person(s) are into.

Just... why

And people thought the LGBT acronyms were getting too long

[First American Empire]

but kinkshaming is her kink

The paradox of tolerance?

To be fair, the Paradox of Tolerance does actually apply to discussions about kink. Talking about it in nominally SFW spaces makes things really uncomfortable for people who don't want to hear about other people's sex lives.

[Mik Jer Amear]

Okay I missed a whole lot of shit and I have many thoughts so don't mind me while I share them.

I’m curious, among the trans people here, what are your thoughts on transmedicalism, that is, the belief that dysphoria is required to be trans?

I think dysphoria is technically necessary for being trans, but my definition of dysphoria is much broader* than the transmedicalists' definition. As a result, I usually end agreeing with the non-dysphoria camp for almost all practical matters, even if I don't agree with the underlying theory.

*If you say "I'm trans and I don't have dysphoria", my response will almost certainly be "what you're experiencing actually is dysphoria", not "you're not actually trans".

This. I feel like a lot of "You don't need dysphoria to be trans" is misinformed and thinking narrowly on the subject. Euphoria wouldn't exist without some kind of discomfort.

Transmedicalism is just repackaged transphobia directed against those existing on the margins of our community. It attacks those who often cannot afford to transition, critiques other trans people's appearances to a point of creating even more dysphoria and discomfort, pushes out people experimenting with and questioning their gender identity (forgetting nearly all of us did this at at least one point), and completely deligimitizes non-binary identities and anything beyond the most conventional and assimilationist gender expressions. It's bullshit that thrusts unnecessary toxicity into our community, alienates us from one another, and makes us complicit in our own oppression.

Honestly, I really pity transmedicalists. Is dysphoria really all their trans identities mean to them? Is all the wonder and magic of being trans simply not exist for them? No gender euphoria or celebration of building identities for ourselves rather than for others? It's like just throwing away the history, culture, and passion our community has built in the name of just going back to the days where we were just seen as disordered freaks that needed to be fixed. It's such a defeatist attitude that negates all the beauty our community has produced, and I can't for the life of me understand how anyone would want to embrace such a depressing mindset other than an inability to move beyond their own internalized transphobia.

I stopped being a transmed/truscum a while ago (long before I showed up in this thread) but even then I remember most of them, including myself at that time, being like our pal saciu and not wanting to go after people who can't afford transition or were just questioning. Though a lot did not like pushing people towards an answer and encouraged really soul-searching for the answer as opposed to certain circles they viewed as pressuring people to transition or identify as trans.

I definitely did see a lot of shitting on NBs that I didn't like (part of why I left that, but hopefully that gets better because it was when I checked a few of the people I followed from that side) and definitely some being very confrontational against non conventional things which also started getting very eehhhh to me.

I do think in my case that period stemmed from a previous time in my life when I'd been a heavy tumblr user and identified as neither as a way to cope with being MtF that wasn't able to do anything to transition because of being young and all the problems (like parents who don't understand) that come with it. Which is funny because I'm now about halfway down not giving a shit boulevard. She or They's perfectly fine. Still working on presentation, fixing my body by getting into shape and taking hormones but I'll get where I want to be.

But since I used to be one I can see where outsiders would go wrong. I don't think that it's all self hatred. One of the common talking points is about how their experiences get erased. There is a bad tendency to focus on the negative and I don't think that's good for the mentality. As it spirals into the kind of toxicity that a bunch of people over on tumblr and reddit exhibit on the transmed side.

People who don't have it as intensely or think they don't have it always seem to be dismissive towards people talking about that part of our shared experience which is just as annoying and unhelpful. It also doesn't help there's so many tucutes/anti-transmeds that are awful serial harassers. Being attacked by someone and their little groupies all the time leads to a lot of doubling down which isn't good for anybody anywhere. And this isn't a " muh both sides" centrist bs thing, that's just the fact that the internet seems to breed cunts.It's the same as Sportsball teams fans sending death threats to each other.

Saciu, may I ask, did you ever have your brain scanned and a doctor tell you that you had a biologically female brain? If not, how do you know that you're a woman? Is it not simply that you have come to realize that you feel like a certain gender, just like people you are condemning as "trenders" (as if someone wanted to suffer through the abuse trans people face, get rejected by friends and family, and risk violence as some sort of cool fad)?

Further, is it not possible that brain differences that may exist (which are less significant than you think) may additionally be a product from a highly plastic brain adapting to aspects of its socialization rather than some innate biological quality?

Why do we even need to search for validation by cis doctors? Do you think that their shifting opinion on trans people happened simply because they got more evidence for it? No, it took immense pressure by our community fighting for to be our ourselves. It was in direct defiance of medical professionalizes who pathologized us and declared us sick individuals in need of a cure. The WHO only just declassified being trans as a mental disorder and you think that we have the "science of gender" perfectly mapped out and transphobic prejudice eradicated from the minds of medical officials who have had their positions for many decades?

I'm going to be real with you. The average trans person knows much more about what it means to be trans than the average doctor. We're the ones who actually are living it. They are the ones trying to accommodate the reality of our existence within their older cisnormative binary framework while trying to ignore the ways in which we directly contradict it.

Not fond of "Nobody would ever do that" arguments when it comes to things that are difficult honestly. People out there take advantage of each other in stranges ways (like Dolezal taking advantage of black people) or are masochists. Humanity is a weird species that always finds new interesting things to do. Though obviously the burden of proof is on anyone claiming someone is faking being trans,

Agreed. "Brain Sex" differences are barely there from what I've read. Humans are one of the least sexually dimorphic species in general, but especially in the brain.

We do need validation from cis doctors, if medical transition is the decision we make. Most doctors are cis and they handle our health while we do stuff that will change our bodies. Acceptance increased because of both. Medical professionals would not change opinions just because of community pressure (which sounds uncomfortable similar the right saying they were forced to by EvIl LiBrUl LEFTISTS and I'm not a fan of that) they changed because of studying and understanding causes of desire to transition better and realizing that to care for people they need to be treated like people, human beings with freedom and agency.

And why is that? Why can one not be the gender they identify as yet still love their body? Why is your identity only valid when you hate your body? How much dysphoria do you need to have? Is there a cut off point? I have dysphoria over my facial hair and used to have dysphoria over my chest, but I don't have much desire to ever get bottom surgery and am perfectly happy with and genuinely enjoy having the genitals I possess. Am I trans enough? Is my identity less valid than yours? There was a period where I proudly wore facial hair and still felt feminine. Was I valid then? Or was I just some trender that wanted to be special so bad I tricked myself into being trans?

I... don't think you understand what dysphoria is, lol, "Y DO U THINK WE NEED TO H8 OUR BODIES?!?!?" is a common talking point from people who heard what it is from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another. Because it's apparently necessary to explain, broadly, "dysphoria" is "a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life". In the context of physical or body dysphoria, it's not strictly "hating your body", but a feeling of unease or dissatisfaction with one's body; I've heard many cases of trans people acknowledging that they actually have a really good body (one you can't hate to have gotten), but it isn't theirs, which is the point: an incongruence between body and mind.

But, to be honest? I completely expected this to come up. It always does.

Yeah just another 'party line' thing I'm going to have to break with. I was never fond of that strawman because very rarely have I encountered people who actually thought that way. It's not hate at all it's exactly what you and the DSM said. Incongruence, discomfort, etc.

Tranny isn't a slur for everyone.

X to doubt.

It's the same as queer - in fact, debatably, queer should be more offensive, as the word "queer" originally meant strange.

Whatever.

They're both slurs but also both reclaimed. It's absolutely incredible that there is anyone who calls themselves one or the other would be offended by someone else calling themselves the other one.

Gender euphoria is just as valid of a reason to transition as gender dysphoria, and you don't need to have dysphoria to experience euphoria.

I couldn't have possibly felt one without the other. My closest friends are also trans and similar. It's an ebb and flow and one isn't separate from the other.

Gender is not a social construct; that would invalidate transgender people. Please don't come in here and promote a harmful constructionist narrative.

A social construct doesn't mean something is fake or invalid though. It means that humans made it up to simplify things not easy to understand. Race being a social construct doesn't invalidate the fact that people that are Asian, Black, White, Indigenous, etc and exist. And yes, gender is a social construct. We made most of it up as extrapolations from real things we observed.

Anyway, I'm now officially done with that thread tangent.

Now, actually on topic, how do people feel about a poll about your fav trans/nonbinary movie/book/game characters for next month's poll? Hedia suggested it, but nobody gave me their thoughts on poll options. And does anyone have a suggestion for the next title?

Yes absolutely! My suggestion is AoT/SnK's COmmander Hanji/Hange/Hans Zoe, who canonically is not gendered as man or woman in the manga, and the creator explicitly said as much. (Though is a woman in the anime adaptation). They're the best suggestion I have that I haven't seen mentioned already.

Also wrt kink topic:
Kinks are fine. Just don't be boundary pushing and creepy about that stuff. And for the love of god respect sfw-nsfw boundaries.

[Vassenor]

Yes absolutely! My suggestion is AoT/SnK's COmmander Hanji/Hange/Hans Zoe, who canonically is not gendered as man or woman in the manga, and the creator explicitly said as much. (Though is a woman in the anime adaptation). They're the best suggestion I have that I haven't seen mentioned already.

Comes across a little bit as trying to use that as a shield though. Dude's a freaking out and proud neo-nazi.

[Mik Jer Amear]

Yes absolutely! My suggestion is AoT/SnK's COmmander Hanji/Hange/Hans Zoe, who canonically is not gendered as man or woman in the manga, and the creator explicitly said as much. (Though is a woman in the anime adaptation). They're the best suggestion I have that I haven't seen mentioned already.

Comes across a little bit as trying to use that as a shield though. Dude's a freaking out and proud neo-nazi.

Not really? I know all about the nationalist and xenophobic stuff from years back but he's hardly neo-nazi level.
Besides being xenophobic doesn't preclude one from being more progressive on other issues. I know a lot of us who've been online quite a while are used to people who are every flavor of the shit rainbow, but that isn't most people, because people are too complex, Isayama especially included in this.

[Vassenor]

Comes across a little bit as trying to use that as a shield though. Dude's a freaking out and proud neo-nazi.

Not really? I know all about the nationalist and xenophobic stuff from years back but he's hardly neo-nazi level.
Besides being xenophobic doesn't preclude one from being more progressive on other issues. I know a lot of us who've been online quite a while are used to people who are every flavor of the shit rainbow, but that isn't most people, because people are too complex, Isayama especially included in this.

And the holocaust denial stuff. And basing characters off notable far-right figures in Japanese history.

[Mik Jer Amear]

Not really? I know all about the nationalist and xenophobic stuff from years back but he's hardly neo-nazi level.
Besides being xenophobic doesn't preclude one from being more progressive on other issues. I know a lot of us who've been online quite a while are used to people who are every flavor of the shit rainbow, but that isn't most people, because people are too complex, Isayama especially included in this.

And the holocaust denial stuff. And basing characters off notable far-right figures in Japanese history.

Haven't heard of him denying the holocaust yet, thats a new one. Source? And yes Dot Pixis was based on a general that did atrocities in Korea, and Yams called him respectable. Did I ever say he didn't hold bad views?

[Grenartia]

Hey, yall, can we stop with the fucking threadjack? Just block Proct and Des. They're not contributing anything to the thread.

Now, actually on topic, how do people feel about a poll about your fav trans/nonbinary movie/book/game characters for next month's poll? Hedia suggested it, but nobody gave me their thoughts on poll options. And does anyone have a suggestion for the next title?

FL4K from Borderlands 3, literally goes by "they."

Hey, yall, can we stop with the fucking threadjack? Just block Proct and Des. They're not contributing anything to the thread.

Now, actually on topic, how do people feel about a poll about your fav trans/nonbinary movie/book/game characters for next month's poll? Hedia suggested it, but nobody gave me their thoughts on poll options. And does anyone have a suggestion for the next title?

Put Link into it, you've gotta.

---

Another point of discussion.

I just realized that I and probably most other trans people have had some experience of being treated like both a man and a woman over the course of their life. I wasn't my AGAB, obviously, but I lived with it for most of my life until I realized my real gender. It's also really funny to me as a nonbinary person, navigating through a binary world.

Of course, one could see how trans people essentially see the different sides of misogyny and sexism. That's one part of my point, but also entering different gendered spaces, and having knowledge of both.

Proct and Des actually contribute a fair amount to discussions. Just because they're not fully on board with all of the trans stuff doesn't mean they have nothing to contribute.

That does seem like I good idea, but I don't know any trans comics or characters. Can someone recommend some good ones to me?

I don't know about comics specifically. There aren't terribly many accurate, non-tokenist representations of trans people in literature that isn't specifically intended to address the issue of trans people (see things like Gracefully Grayson). There aren't a lot of trans people in video games that aren't one-off NPCs either, with a couple notable exceptions - Vivian (PM:TTYD[J], playable), Birdo (SMB2, playable in some later games and a notable NPC in the original), Poison (Final Fight/Street Fighter series, playable/notable NPC). Movies and TV, however, have a lot, although they're unfortunately overrepresentative of trans women relative to trans men, much like games.

Hey, yall, can we stop with the fucking threadjack? Just block Proct and Des. They're not contributing anything to the thread.

Now, actually on topic, how do people feel about a poll about your fav trans/nonbinary movie/book/game characters for next month's poll? Hedia suggested it, but nobody gave me their thoughts on poll options. And does anyone have a suggestion for the next title?

Frisk from Undertale, Alluka from Hunter x Hunter, Lily from Zombie Land Saga... kinda wanna say Taliyah from League of Legends but her being trans is in kind of a grey area canon-wise. I think Sailor Uranus has also been described as nonbinary at some point.

Hey, yall, can we stop with the fucking threadjack? Just block Proct and Des. They're not contributing anything to the thread.

Now, actually on topic, how do people feel about a poll about your fav trans/nonbinary movie/book/game characters for next month's poll? Hedia suggested it, but nobody gave me their thoughts on poll options. And does anyone have a suggestion for the next title?

That does seem like I good idea, but I don't know any trans comics or characters. Can someone recommend some good ones to me?

Trans/nonbinary comics that I've loved (my wife is a graphic novel fanatic and our house is lined with them):

Maia Koiabe's GenderQueer: A Memoir
Jen Wang's The Prince and the Dressmaker
Erin Nations' Gumballs

Less good, still enjoyable: Sabrina Symington's First Year Out: A Transition Story

I realize these are not very well-known titles, but do give them a try! The Prince and the Dressmaker is fiction/fantasy, the others are autobiographical.

Hey, yall, can we stop with the fucking threadjack? Just block Proct and Des. They're not contributing anything to the thread.

Now, actually on topic, how do people feel about a poll about your fav trans/nonbinary movie/book/game characters for next month's poll? Hedia suggested it, but nobody gave me their thoughts on poll options. And does anyone have a suggestion for the next title?

Poison from Street Fighter is obviously the best.

Also Bridget from Gulity Gear if that counts.

Yes absolutely! My suggestion is AoT/SnK's COmmander Hanji/Hange/Hans Zoe, who canonically is not gendered as man or woman in the manga, and the creator explicitly said as much. (Though is a woman in the anime adaptation). They're the best suggestion I have that I haven't seen mentioned already.

Hey, yall, can we stop with the fucking threadjack? Just block Proct and Des. They're not contributing anything to the thread.

Now, actually on topic, how do people feel about a poll about your fav trans/nonbinary movie/book/game characters for next month's poll? Hedia suggested it, but nobody gave me their thoughts on poll options. And does anyone have a suggestion for the next title?

Frisk from Undertale, Alluka from Hunter x Hunter, Lily from Zombie Land Saga... kinda wanna say Taliyah from League of Legends but her being trans is in kind of a grey area canon-wise. I think Sailor Uranus has also been described as nonbinary at some point.

I can feel ya fam. Its the same to me, sort of.

In self-indulgent personal news, I was talking with my brother about changing my legal name (which I was hoping to do before the next semester of uni, so I could go into the new year of school as, well, myself). I guess my mom overheard me or something, because later she came to tell me that she would never support what I was doing and implied that my grandfather might forfeit my vague unspecified share of an uncertain inheritance if he found out what I wanted to do. It didn't make me feel as bad as I thought it would, but it was still pretty upsetting. I'm mostly over it though, and it only took me like half an hour, so I guess it wasn't that bad. (I don't care much about the inheritance, by the way, I just didn't appreciate being threatened with it.)

All in all, a bit of a sucky day, especially with the bit of a panic attack I had earlier in the evening over other general academic and future worries. Since I'm below 21, and my birthday only comes in September, I won't be able to legally change my name before the semester opens without both of my parents' consent. I figure I might open up to my professors and ask them to address me as female instead of changing my name in the system, but I have no idea how supportive they'll be or even who they are, since I haven't been allocated my modules yet.

Ah, life, you never cease to annoy. I'll figure it out eventually, I guess.

Fucking ouch, though.

Yeah, this is a big thing. Within the LGBT+ "scene" (in the absence of a better word) the idea that all identities are valid and to be affirmed is axiomatic, as are things like it being okay to openly talk about fetishes or whatever without anyone going "TMI, TMI!"

This is, easily, my least favorite part of the LGBT+ community. You have no idea how many times I actually have gone "TMI, TMI", but got yelled at for "kinkshaming". In supposedly SFW spaces. When I was complaining about them telling everyone about kinks so extreme that many actual porn sites ban them. One time in someone's username.

See, every time someone has brought up being uncomfortable with a given topic, the groups I'm in apologize and change subjects. Like, there's a time and fucking place for kink conversations, and its not fucking "kinkshaming" to point that out.

My personal strategy for dealing with the "hyperwoke" crowd is to turn their own bullshit back on them.

This isn't quite the same as what you're talking about, but I once had some guy giving me the 3rd degree for killing fucking wasps that get too close to me. He was literally giving me the same degree of shit you'd expect a defender of neo-nazis to get. So I told him he was being incredibly fucking ableist because he didn't have to worry about an allergic reaction to being stung by them, whereas I did. That shut him up real quick.

In your case, I'd say something like "The current subject of conversation is getting into territory that triggers my PTSD" (you don't have to actually have it, but if it bothers you that badly, there's no better surefire way to get a hyperwoke to STFU than that, although if they press, I'd recommend being able to answer some questions about it).

I know that isn't the most morally-upstanding suggestion, but at the same time, I think its about on the same level as lying and saying "my mom died" in response to a shitty Yo Mama joke. If it teaches them a lesson about stopping being shitty, then the lie is permissible.

Good news from Oregon!

Oregon adds gender identity to hate crime protections

SALEM, Ore. (AP) — Gender identity will be added as a protected class as Oregon's hate crime laws see the most significant update since the 1980s under a new measure signed by the governor that also closed a loophole that gave lesser sentences to perpetrators who committed hate crimes alone.

...

The new law makes it a felony to threaten or assault an individual based on their "membership in a protected class." It also follows the lead of other states by clarifying that gender identity is considered a protected class, a move meant to acknowledge the increase in crimes against transgender individuals.

(source)

Nice! Why can't every other state be as great as Oregon?

This is exactly the problem I'm talking about.

Read it again carefully, but with your internal monologue in a sarcastic tone, and the meaning should become clear.

I mean, yeah, its sarcasm, but I think this is a good stopping place for the kink convo (as much as I wish I could continue it).

Okay I missed a whole lot of shit and I have many thoughts so don't mind me while I share them.

I think dysphoria is technically necessary for being trans, but my definition of dysphoria is much broader* than the transmedicalists' definition. As a result, I usually end agreeing with the non-dysphoria camp for almost all practical matters, even if I don't agree with the underlying theory.

*If you say "I'm trans and I don't have dysphoria", my response will almost certainly be "what you're experiencing actually is dysphoria", not "you're not actually trans".

This. I feel like a lot of "You don't need dysphoria to be trans" is misinformed and thinking narrowly on the subject. Euphoria wouldn't exist without some kind of discomfort.

Not necessarily. There is a middle ground between pleasure and pain, after all, and it is possible to experience pleasure without experiencing pain very often. Just because you can fully enjoy tingles from ASMR doesn't mean you're constantly suffering the pain of a thousand paper cuts every instant you're not ASMR'ing.

Transmedicalism is just repackaged transphobia directed against those existing on the margins of our community. It attacks those who often cannot afford to transition, critiques other trans people's appearances to a point of creating even more dysphoria and discomfort, pushes out people experimenting with and questioning their gender identity (forgetting nearly all of us did this at at least one point), and completely deligimitizes non-binary identities and anything beyond the most conventional and assimilationist gender expressions. It's bullshit that thrusts unnecessary toxicity into our community, alienates us from one another, and makes us complicit in our own oppression.

Honestly, I really pity transmedicalists. Is dysphoria really all their trans identities mean to them? Is all the wonder and magic of being trans simply not exist for them? No gender euphoria or celebration of building identities for ourselves rather than for others? It's like just throwing away the history, culture, and passion our community has built in the name of just going back to the days where we were just seen as disordered freaks that needed to be fixed. It's such a defeatist attitude that negates all the beauty our community has produced, and I can't for the life of me understand how anyone would want to embrace such a depressing mindset other than an inability to move beyond their own internalized transphobia.

I stopped being a transmed/truscum a while ago (long before I showed up in this thread) but even then I remember most of them, including myself at that time, being like our pal saciu and not wanting to go after people who can't afford transition or were just questioning. Though a lot did not like pushing people towards an answer and encouraged really soul-searching for the answer as opposed to certain circles they viewed as pressuring people to transition or identify as trans.

I definitely did see a lot of shitting on NBs that I didn't like (part of why I left that, but hopefully that gets better because it was when I checked a few of the people I followed from that side) and definitely some being very confrontational against non conventional things which also started getting very eehhhh to me.

I do think in my case that period stemmed from a previous time in my life when I'd been a heavy tumblr user and identified as neither as a way to cope with being MtF that wasn't able to do anything to transition because of being young and all the problems (like parents who don't understand) that come with it. Which is funny because I'm now about halfway down not giving a shit boulevard. She or They's perfectly fine. Still working on presentation, fixing my body by getting into shape and taking hormones but I'll get where I want to be.

But since I used to be one I can see where outsiders would go wrong. I don't think that it's all self hatred. One of the common talking points is about how their experiences get erased. There is a bad tendency to focus on the negative and I don't think that's good for the mentality. As it spirals into the kind of toxicity that a bunch of people over on tumblr and reddit exhibit on the transmed side.

People who don't have it as intensely or think they don't have it always seem to be dismissive towards people talking about that part of our shared experience which is just as annoying and unhelpful. It also doesn't help there's so many tucutes/anti-transmeds that are awful serial harassers. Being attacked by someone and their little groupies all the time leads to a lot of doubling down which isn't good for anybody anywhere. And this isn't a " muh both sides" centrist bs thing, that's just the fact that the internet seems to breed cunts.It's the same as Sportsball teams fans sending death threats to each other.

Saciu, may I ask, did you ever have your brain scanned and a doctor tell you that you had a biologically female brain? If not, how do you know that you're a woman? Is it not simply that you have come to realize that you feel like a certain gender, just like people you are condemning as "trenders" (as if someone wanted to suffer through the abuse trans people face, get rejected by friends and family, and risk violence as some sort of cool fad)?

Further, is it not possible that brain differences that may exist (which are less significant than you think) may additionally be a product from a highly plastic brain adapting to aspects of its socialization rather than some innate biological quality?

Why do we even need to search for validation by cis doctors? Do you think that their shifting opinion on trans people happened simply because they got more evidence for it? No, it took immense pressure by our community fighting for to be our ourselves. It was in direct defiance of medical professionalizes who pathologized us and declared us sick individuals in need of a cure. The WHO only just declassified being trans as a mental disorder and you think that we have the "science of gender" perfectly mapped out and transphobic prejudice eradicated from the minds of medical officials who have had their positions for many decades?

I'm going to be real with you. The average trans person knows much more about what it means to be trans than the average doctor. We're the ones who actually are living it. They are the ones trying to accommodate the reality of our existence within their older cisnormative binary framework while trying to ignore the ways in which we directly contradict it.

Not fond of "Nobody would ever do that" arguments when it comes to things that are difficult honestly. People out there take advantage of each other in stranges ways (like Dolezal taking advantage of black people) or are masochists. Humanity is a weird species that always finds new interesting things to do. Though obviously the burden of proof is on anyone claiming someone is faking being trans,

Agreed. "Brain Sex" differences are barely there from what I've read. Humans are one of the least sexually dimorphic species in general, but especially in the brain.

We do need validation from cis doctors, if medical transition is the decision we make. Most doctors are cis and they handle our health while we do stuff that will change our bodies. Acceptance increased because of both. Medical professionals would not change opinions just because of community pressure (which sounds uncomfortable similar the right saying they were forced to by EvIl LiBrUl LEFTISTS and I'm not a fan of that) they changed because of studying and understanding causes of desire to transition better and realizing that to care for people they need to be treated like people, human beings with freedom and agency.

I... don't think you understand what dysphoria is, lol, "Y DO U THINK WE NEED TO H8 OUR BODIES?!?!?" is a common talking point from people who heard what it is from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another. Because it's apparently necessary to explain, broadly, "dysphoria" is "a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life". In the context of physical or body dysphoria, it's not strictly "hating your body", but a feeling of unease or dissatisfaction with one's body; I've heard many cases of trans people acknowledging that they actually have a really good body (one you can't hate to have gotten), but it isn't theirs, which is the point: an incongruence between body and mind.

But, to be honest? I completely expected this to come up. It always does.

Yeah just another 'party line' thing I'm going to have to break with. I was never fond of that strawman because very rarely have I encountered people who actually thought that way. It's not hate at all it's exactly what you and the DSM said. Incongruence, discomfort, etc.

X to doubt.



Whatever.

They're both slurs but also both reclaimed. It's absolutely incredible that there is anyone who calls themselves one or the other would be offended by someone else calling themselves the other one.

I haven't seen the T-slur get reclaimed. Reclamation involves a hell of a lot more than simply saying it has been reclaimed.

I couldn't have possibly felt one without the other. My closest friends are also trans and similar. It's an ebb and flow and one isn't separate from the other.



A social construct doesn't mean something is fake or invalid though. It means that humans made it up to simplify things not easy to understand. Race being a social construct doesn't invalidate the fact that people that are Asian, Black, White, Indigenous, etc and exist. And yes, gender is a social construct. We made most of it up as extrapolations from real things we observed.

Anyway, I'm now officially done with that thread tangent.

Also wrt kink topic:
Kinks are fine. Just don't be boundary pushing and creepy about that stuff. And for the love of god respect sfw-nsfw boundaries.

Agreed.

[Proctopeo]

Don't forget my suggestions.

In terms of actual trans characters that haven't already been mentioned, there's that one Beauty from the Battle Maison in Pokemon who said she was a Black Belt/Karate King six months prior, and Beatrice from Umineko. The latter, being not just a one-off NPC, is someone I recommend for the poll.

---

Hey, yall, can we stop with the fucking threadjack? Just block Proct and Des. They're not contributing anything to the thread.

Now, actually on topic, how do people feel about a poll about your fav trans/nonbinary movie/book/game characters for next month's poll? Hedia suggested it, but nobody gave me their thoughts on poll options. And does anyone have a suggestion for the next title?

Frisk from Undertale, Alluka from Hunter x Hunter, Lily from Zombie Land Saga... kinda wanna say Taliyah from League of Legends but her being trans is in kind of a grey area canon-wise. I think Sailor Uranus has also been described as nonbinary at some point.

Frisk is dubious, as they're more an "up to your personal interpretation" character.

As for Lily, having actually watched Zombie Land Saga to its completion and done research... she's complicated, but not actually trans. That's an interpretation by Western fans and Western fans only, as an analysis of Pixiv and Japanese Twitter will show you (which is the best thing we got, as the only official Twitter has stayed mum). The only people who really argued that she's trans are Western people (who barely even watch anime, mind) who've been dead wrong before with other characters.
Even if she was, her cause of death makes her a rather poor instance of representation.

Also, Sailor Uranus is without question a girl, just, well, butch.

[Torrocca]

Nah, Lily's trans, and the opening to this explains precisely why that's true for both the original Japanese version of the show and the English version. Proct's blatantly wrong on this.

[Luminesa]

Don't forget my suggestions.

In terms of actual trans characters that haven't already been mentioned, there's that one Beauty from the Battle Maison in Pokemon who said she was a Black Belt/Karate King six months prior, and Beatrice from Umineko. The latter, being not just a one-off NPC, is someone I recommend for the poll.

---

Frisk from Undertale, Alluka from Hunter x Hunter, Lily from Zombie Land Saga... kinda wanna say Taliyah from League of Legends but her being trans is in kind of a grey area canon-wise. I think Sailor Uranus has also been described as nonbinary at some point.

Frisk is dubious, as they're more an "up to your personal interpretation" character.

As for Lily, having actually watched Zombie Land Saga to its completion and done research... she's complicated, but not actually trans. That's an interpretation by Western fans and Western fans only, as an analysis of Pixiv and Japanese Twitter will show you (which is the best thing we got, as the only official Twitter has stayed mum). The only people who really argued that she's trans are Western people (who barely even watch anime, mind) who've been dead wrong before with other characters.
Even if she was, her cause of death makes her a rather poor instance of representation.

Also, Sailor Uranus is without question a girl, just, well, butch.

Naoko Takeuchi never described her as anything other than a woman. The only exception I can think is that Neptune describes her in the manga as being kind of like a man and a woman...but she’s also far more feminine in the manga than she is in the anime. And she doesn’t ever claim to be anything other than a girl, IC. Uranus is either butch or androgynous, but always female and always referred to as “she” once the senshi know her identity. She even wears a dress with all the other girls in the official art of the senshi as princesses.

[Luminesa]

Nah, Lily's trans, and the opening to this explains precisely why that's true for both the original Japanese version of the show and the English version. Proct's blatantly wrong on this.

You couldn’t link an interview from the writer themselves? Instead of a fan-made video?

Still a rather tasteless portrayal of trans people if she is trans, with seeing a facial hair in the mirror and dying of a heart attack being her cause of death. I’d put that up top with the new Powerpuff Girls butchering transgender representation in that unicorn episode.

[Proctopeo]

Nah, Lily's trans, and the opening to this explains precisely why that's true for both the original Japanese version of the show and the English version. Proct's blatantly wrong on this.

Hey, it's one of those people I mentioned! Yeah, she doesn't know shit about what she's talking about. On pretty much anything, really, but especially this. (She's also just generally a shitty person, as at AX she tried to spike a rival Youtuber's drink. Thankfully it failed and Dmitri Monroe avoided whatever the hell she had planned, but I don't know if he could press charges.)

Here, this guy covers the complex situation pretty well.

Nah, Lily's trans, and the opening to this explains precisely why that's true for both the original Japanese version of the show and the English version. Proct's blatantly wrong on this.

You couldn’t link an interview from the writer themselves? Instead of a fan-made video?

The writers haven't really weighed in IIRC. But choosing a westerner who's just frankly a fucking idiot is a horrible move.

[Torrocca]

Nah, Lily's trans, and the opening to this explains precisely why that's true for both the original Japanese version of the show and the English version. Proct's blatantly wrong on this.

You couldn’t link an interview from the writer themselves? Instead of a fan-made video?

I mean, both that (and this, too) use direct evidence from the material itself. That really should be enough. It's pretty damn obvious that it was the intent of the creators to show that Lily's a trans girl.

[Torrocca]

The writers haven't really weighed in IIRC. But choosing a westerner who's just frankly a fucking idiot is a horrible move.

The irony of you complaining about westerners expressing their support to the fact that Lily's trans is utterly fucking hilarious when you're a westerner yourself; why should we take your word as the truth when you haven't bothered bringing up much in the way of evidence in this little argument whereas these people have?

[Proctopeo]

The writers haven't really weighed in IIRC. But choosing a westerner who's just frankly a fucking idiot is a horrible move.

The irony of you complaining about westerners expressing their support to the fact that Lily's trans is utterly fucking hilarious when you're a westerner yourself

The irony doesn't invalidate my point.

why should we take your word as the truth when you haven't bothered bringing up much in the way of evidence in this little argument whereas these people have?

Well, I did provide a video of my own that basically annihilates what you had, but if you want further proof, search "星川 リリィ" on Pixiv and see what things are tagged (it's largely otokonoko and other related tags). I take the interpretation of numerous Japanese artists over a couple idiots online, especially because the writers haven't said anything yet.

[Luminesa]

The writers haven't really weighed in IIRC. But choosing a westerner who's just frankly a fucking idiot is a horrible move.

The irony of you complaining about westerners expressing their support to the fact that Lily's trans is utterly fucking hilarious when you're a westerner yourself; why should we take your word as the truth when you haven't bothered bringing up much in the way of evidence in this little argument whereas these people have?

You also used a random Tumblr person’s page. And seriously. Do you want to be represented as someone who dies from a massive stress reaction (played somewhat for laughs) from pulling a hair off your chin? This isn’t a hill that needs to be died on. And Procto did post his own video. And mentioned that (something I did not know) the writers have been mum on the issue. Which I guess is odd, but not any odder than trying to get the writers of Evangelion to explain why everyone turned to Tang in Episode 26.

[Torrocca]

The irony of you complaining about westerners expressing their support to the fact that Lily's trans is utterly fucking hilarious when you're a westerner yourself

The irony doesn't invalidate my point.

No, but you screaming that the idea that Lily is trans is invalid specifically because it's primarily Westerners supporting that idea does invalidate your shitty point.

why should we take your word as the truth when you haven't bothered bringing up much in the way of evidence in this little argument whereas these people have?

Well, I did provide a video of my own that basically annihilates what you had, but if you want further proof, search "星川 リリィ" on Pixiv and see what things are tagged (it's largely otokonoko and other related tags). I take the interpretation of numerous Japanese artists over a couple idiots online, especially because the writers haven't said anything yet.

Oh, so you're going to disregard the dialogue that the writers actually wrote for the show itself that explicitly makes it clear that Lily identifies as a girl and that the others accept her as a girl because a couple idiots online decided to misgender her in their art?

That's certainly an interesting hill for you to choose to die on in the TDT of all places.

[Torrocca]

The irony of you complaining about westerners expressing their support to the fact that Lily's trans is utterly fucking hilarious when you're a westerner yourself; why should we take your word as the truth when you haven't bothered bringing up much in the way of evidence in this little argument whereas these people have?

You also used a random Tumblr person’s page. And seriously. Do you want to be represented as someone who dies from a massive stress reaction (played somewhat for laughs) from pulling a hair off your chin?

I'm fine with the representation primarily because the show, for the most part, addresses it tactfully with the character being openly accepted as a girl by the rest of the group after she explicitly makes it clear she only identifies as a girl.

This isn’t a hill that needs to be died on. And Procto did post his own video. And mentioned that (something I did not know) the writers have been mum on the issue. Which I guess is odd, but not any odder than trying to get the writers of Evangelion to explain why everyone turned to Tang in Episode 26.

You're right that it's not a hill that needs to be one to die on, which is why it's stupid that Proct's deliberately choosing to go against what the writers of the show actually wrote in terms of dialogue and story to scream about how this character who's explicitly shown to be trans somehow actually isn't.

[First American Empire]

This is, easily, my least favorite part of the LGBT+ community. You have no idea how many times I actually have gone "TMI, TMI", but got yelled at for "kinkshaming". In supposedly SFW spaces. When I was complaining about them telling everyone about kinks so extreme that many actual porn sites ban them. One time in someone's username.

See, every time someone has brought up being uncomfortable with a given topic, the groups I'm in apologize and change subjects. Like, there's a time and fucking place for kink conversations, and its not fucking "kinkshaming" to point that out.

My personal strategy for dealing with the "hyperwoke" crowd is to turn their own bullshit back on them.

This isn't quite the same as what you're talking about, but I once had some guy giving me the 3rd degree for killing fucking wasps that get too close to me. He was literally giving me the same degree of shit you'd expect a defender of neo-nazis to get. So I told him he was being incredibly fucking ableist because he didn't have to worry about an allergic reaction to being stung by them, whereas I did. That shut him up real quick.

In your case, I'd say something like "The current subject of conversation is getting into territory that triggers my PTSD" (you don't have to actually have it, but if it bothers you that badly, there's no better surefire way to get a hyperwoke to STFU than that, although if they press, I'd recommend being able to answer some questions about it).

I know that isn't the most morally-upstanding suggestion, but at the same time, I think its about on the same level as lying and saying "my mom died" in response to a shitty Yo Mama joke. If it teaches them a lesson about stopping being shitty, then the lie is permissible.

This would be tough to do with people who know IRL, but your advice will be really useful when talking with people online. (I already lie a bunch about my personal life to stop people from tracking me down through my forum posts, so this isn't much of a stretch for me.)

Okay I missed a whole lot of shit and I have many thoughts so don't mind me while I share them.



Not necessarily. There is a middle ground between pleasure and pain, after all, and it is possible to experience pleasure without experiencing pain very often. Just because you can fully enjoy tingles from ASMR doesn't mean you're constantly suffering the pain of a thousand paper cuts every instant you're not ASMR'ing.

I really think people are experiencing euphoria because they originally had dysphoria without realizing it, and don't have it anymore after transitioning. Dysphoria can sometimes be so omnipresent that you don't understand what not having it is like, and transitioning can seem euphoric in those circumstances. Also ASMR stuff sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me and I'd rather suffer the pain of a thousand paper cuts than listen to it.