TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Saciu]

Also, in this thread, please remember to take this advice: be nice, be respectful.

Bold words for someone who doubts nonbinary people. You ever heard of the phrase "trans rights aren't a debate"? This is one case, my validity isn't up for debate, accept me for who I am, and then let's talk.

I think we're done here, unless we want to challenge ourselves to a banging our heads against brick walls.

I'm saying that I think it's more likely or not the case that NB is not real. That's disrespectful unless you're rather thin-skinned. A disrespectful way of saying it would be "Non binary people are fucked up/mentally ill and should be detained. As long as I'm saying my point with courtesy, it's respectful.

[Cekoviu]

Bold words for someone who doubts nonbinary people. You ever heard of the phrase "trans rights aren't a debate"? This is one case, my validity isn't up for debate, accept me for who I am, and then let's talk.

I think we're done here, unless we want to challenge ourselves to a banging our heads against brick walls.

I'm saying that I think it's more likely or not the case that NB is not real. That's disrespectful unless you're rather thin-skinned. A disrespectful way of saying it would be "Non binary people are fucked up/mentally ill and should be detained. As long as I'm saying my point with courtesy, it's respectful.

Not directly comparable, of course, but it illustrates the issue with "but I'm saying it respectfully!"

[Saciu]

It's funny that one group says "oh we're so scientific" but then has people saying that there are millions of genders.

Are you still peddling this fucking bullshit? Alright, let's show you how stupid this argument is with an example:

It's funny that physicists claim to be scientists but then say there aren't a finite number of points on the electromagnetic BINARY. Everybody knows there are two electromagnetic categories a ray can have: gamma or radio. Everything else is just pseudoscientific bullshit, and any light ray that physicists claim to be another wavelength is just a confused gamma ray.

By millions of genders, I'm talking about genders like trigender and astralgender that aren't found on the gender spectrum
It's funny that physicists claim to be scientists but then say that tricycle isn't on the electromagnetic spectrum.

[Saciu]

No, it's a fallacy fallacy if you point out a fallacy and try and act like it alone means the conclusion is wrong. Which seems to have been what Hedia was trying to pull.

Well, a logical fallacy to that degree often does make the conclusion wrong, so...

Often does=/=definitely does.

[Cekoviu]

Are you still peddling this fucking bullshit? Alright, let's show you how stupid this argument is with an example:

It's funny that physicists claim to be scientists but then say there aren't a finite number of points on the electromagnetic BINARY. Everybody knows there are two electromagnetic categories a ray can have: gamma or radio. Everything else is just pseudoscientific bullshit, and any light ray that physicists claim to be another wavelength is just a confused gamma ray.

By millions of genders, I'm talking about genders like trigender and astralgender that aren't found on the gender spectrum
It's funny that physicists claim to be scientists but then say that tricycle isn't on the electromagnetic spectrum.

That shit is teenagers trying to understand their identity. Nobody over like 25 is going to be identifying as that. I don't understand why anybody even cares enough to mention it.

[Torrocca]

After going through the last few pages or so, I can safely say transmed is a fucking stupid, overly-gatekeepy way to demean trans people who don't fit into a particular niche.

Also, the full-forced tu quoque from some people is hilarious in how badly it fails at actually addressing anything that's being said in here.

[Saciu]

I'm saying that I think it's more likely or not the case that NB is not real. That's disrespectful unless you're rather thin-skinned. A disrespectful way of saying it would be "Non binary people are fucked up/mentally ill and should be detained. As long as I'm saying my point with courtesy, it's respectful.

Not directly comparable, of course, but it illustrates the issue with "but I'm saying it respectfully!"

It depends on how you define "respectful". It's also not a good idea to compare my argument with Naziism. Transmedicalism is nowhere near that.

[Torrocca]

By millions of genders, I'm talking about genders like trigender and astralgender that aren't found on the gender spectrum
It's funny that physicists claim to be scientists but then say that tricycle isn't on the electromagnetic spectrum.

That shit is teenagers trying to understand their identity. Nobody over like 25 is going to be identifying as that. I don't understand why anybody even cares enough to mention it.

Because it's easier to demean and mock people who're just getting started with life than it is to offer love, support, and guidance as they try to understand themselves and the world around them.

Gotta love the generational criticisms that come from the generation that made participation trophies for us then mock us for receiving them.

[Proctopeo]

No, it's a fallacy fallacy if you point out a fallacy and try and act like it alone means the conclusion is wrong. Which seems to have been what Hedia was trying to pull.

Well, a logical fallacy to that degree often does make the conclusion wrong, so...

However, claiming such is itself fallacious.

angrily low hums in radio
Also, your comparison (and point) was really out there, so I felt the need to meme it up.

Is it, though? Because it's pretty much a direct parallel of what Saciu's been saying (minus the misrepresentation of physicists' position on the matter), just applied to something that nobody here should have emotional attachment to for illustrative purposes.

There's lots of problems with your """"direct parallel"""", chief among them that everyone agrees on the electromagnetic spectrum, while "gender is a spectrum" is a point of immense debate and not the dominant opinion, even in the trans community.

By millions of genders, I'm talking about genders like trigender and astralgender that aren't found on the gender spectrum
It's funny that physicists claim to be scientists but then say that tricycle isn't on the electromagnetic spectrum.

That shit is teenagers trying to understand their identity. Nobody over like 25 is going to be identifying as that. I don't understand why anybody even cares enough to mention it.

Most people do grow out of it, sure, but it's not like there's nobody over, like, 25 who identifies that way. In my experience they're also often the ones leading teens to identify those ways too...

(Image)

Not directly comparable, of course, but it illustrates the issue with "but I'm saying it respectfully!"

It depends on how you define "respectful". It's also not a good idea to compare my argument with Naziism. Transmedicalism is nowhere near that.

If you believe some people, transmedicalism is the road to trans genocide, presumably through surgeries and medicines covered by insurance

[Auzkhia]

I'm saying that I think it's more likely or not the case that NB is not real. That's disrespectful unless you're rather thin-skinned. A disrespectful way of saying it would be "Non binary people are fucked up/mentally ill and should be detained. As long as I'm saying my point with courtesy, it's respectful.

Not directly comparable, of course, but it illustrates the issue with "but I'm saying it respectfully!"

Exactly, one can dress up their exclusionary rhetoric in any style, but functionally, there is no difference between classy bigotry dressed in its finest evening wear and street bigotry dressed in blood stained rags. In other words, she's polishing a turd of an idea and trying sell me a meatball hero.

[Cekoviu]

Not directly comparable, of course, but it illustrates the issue with "but I'm saying it respectfully!"

It depends on how you define "respectful". It's also not a good idea to compare my argument with Naziism. Transmedicalism is nowhere near that.

Of course it's not, and I said so originally. But the issue is that what you're advocating (which is starting to veer away from transmedicalism into pure transphobia) is a fundamentally disrespectful thing to nonbinary people, and putting a monocle and top hat on it doesn't make it more okay.

[Saciu]

Not directly comparable, of course, but it illustrates the issue with "but I'm saying it respectfully!"

Exactly, one can dress up their exclusionary rhetoric in any style, but functionally, there is no difference between classy bigotry dressed in its finest evening wear and street bigotry dressed in blood stained rags. In other words, she's polishing a turd of an idea and trying sell me a meatball hero.

But referring to an idea as a turd is entirely respectful.
Who decides which beliefs are respectful?

[Cekoviu]

Exactly, one can dress up their exclusionary rhetoric in any style, but functionally, there is no difference between classy bigotry dressed in its finest evening wear and street bigotry dressed in blood stained rags. In other words, she's polishing a turd of an idea and trying sell me a meatball hero.

But referring to an idea as a turd is entirely respectful.
Who decides which beliefs are respectful?

Ideas aren't people.
I'm guessing the people at which those beliefs are directed...?

[Proctopeo]

But referring to an idea as a turd is entirely respectful.
Who decides which beliefs are respectful?

Ideas aren't people.
I'm guessing the people at which those beliefs are directed...?

And if only some of them sees those beliefs as disrespectful, then who decides? Very rarely is there homogeneity when it comes to this; there's almost always a subsection that goes against the majority opinion, if there even is one.

[Saciu]

But referring to an idea as a turd is entirely respectful.
Who decides which beliefs are respectful?

Ideas aren't people.
I'm guessing the people at which those beliefs are directed...?

So saying that transmedicalists are followers of an idiotic belief is disrespectful.

[Auzkhia]

But referring to an idea as a turd is entirely respectful.
Who decides which beliefs are respectful?

Ideas aren't people.
I'm guessing the people at which those beliefs are directed...?

Exactly, it's why TERF isn't a slur, because it refers to a shitty idea, not the person.

It depends on how you define "respectful". It's also not a good idea to compare my argument with Naziism. Transmedicalism is nowhere near that.

Of course it's not, and I said so originally. But the issue is that what you're advocating (which is starting to veer away from transmedicalism into pure transphobia) is a fundamentally disrespectful thing to nonbinary people, and putting a monocle and top hat on it doesn't make it more okay.

There is no difference between transmedicalism and transphobia. It's just internalized transphobia when it comes from a trans person, and regular ol' transphobia when it comes from a cis person.

[Cekoviu]

Ideas aren't people.
I'm guessing the people at which those beliefs are directed...?

And if only some of them sees those beliefs as disrespectful, then who decides? Very rarely is there homogeneity when it comes to this; there's almost always a subsection that goes against the majority opinion, if there even is one.

The majority. This isn't hard, dude.

[Saciu]

Ideas aren't people.
I'm guessing the people at which those beliefs are directed...?

And if only some of them sees those beliefs as disrespectful, then who decides? Very rarely is there homogeneity when it comes to this; there's almost always a subsection that goes against the majority opinion, if there even is one.

Those who shout loudest decide. Sadly, they're the people who tend to be the least informed.

[Kowani]

Ideas aren't people.
I'm guessing the people at which those beliefs are directed...?

So saying that transmedicalists are followers of an idiotic belief is disrespectful.

So is saying that Nazis are followers of an idiot belief. Try harder.

[Cekoviu]

Of course it's not, and I said so originally. But the issue is that what you're advocating (which is starting to veer away from transmedicalism into pure transphobia) is a fundamentally disrespectful thing to nonbinary people, and putting a monocle and top hat on it doesn't make it more okay.

There is no difference between transmedicalism and transphobia. It's just internalized transphobia when it comes from a trans person, and regular ol' transphobia when it comes from a cis person.

Not exactly. Transmedicalism can be just plain wrongness, but it does frequently come in a package deal with transphobia.
Don't trust Black Friday sales, kids.

[Cekoviu]

And if only some of them sees those beliefs as disrespectful, then who decides? Very rarely is there homogeneity when it comes to this; there's almost always a subsection that goes against the majority opinion, if there even is one.

Those who shout loudest decide. Sadly, they're the people who tend to be the least informed.

i.e., transmedicalists

[Saciu]

Those who shout loudest decide. Sadly, they're the people who tend to be the least informed.

i.e., transmedicalists

Not necessarily. When people think of the trans community, they're more likely to think of the more gender liberal people, the people that everyone on here would think cuckoo.

[Vassenor]

Exactly, one can dress up their exclusionary rhetoric in any style, but functionally, there is no difference between classy bigotry dressed in its finest evening wear and street bigotry dressed in blood stained rags. In other words, she's polishing a turd of an idea and trying sell me a meatball hero.

But referring to an idea as a turd is entirely respectful.
Who decides which beliefs are respectful?

Here's a hint. Telling a person they don't exist isn't respectful, no matter how politely you do it.

[Cekoviu]

i.e., transmedicalists

Not necessarily. When people think of the trans community, they're more likely to think of the more gender liberal people, the people that everyone on here would think cuckoo.

Mostly thanks to people with the same ideology as you making a mountain out of a molehill on YouTube.

[Proctopeo]

And if only some of them sees those beliefs as disrespectful, then who decides? Very rarely is there homogeneity when it comes to this; there's almost always a subsection that goes against the majority opinion, if there even is one.

The majority. This isn't hard, dude.

Figuring out who the majority is can be damn hard, though, especially because you need to account for vocal minorities, who, at times, may seem like the majority, but overall are not.

And if only some of them sees those beliefs as disrespectful, then who decides? Very rarely is there homogeneity when it comes to this; there's almost always a subsection that goes against the majority opinion, if there even is one.

Those who shout loudest decide. Sadly, they're the people who tend to be the least informed.

This is more accurate than saying "the majority", because, again, vocal minorities tend to be the strongest, influence-wise.

Those who shout loudest decide. Sadly, they're the people who tend to be the least informed.

i.e., transmedicalists

Ah, now you're on the "no u" train. Seems to be the current spirit of the discussion.
In my experience, the anti-transmeds are the least informed and the loudest. Typically, they're just repeating what an influential community leader said, without putting much critical thought into it.