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Trans Discussion Thread 4: Free SAMs for Attack Helicopters

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who is your favorite fictional trans character?

Lily Hoshikawa (Zombie Land Saga)
12
20%
FL4K (Borderlands 3)
1
2%
Poison (Final Fight/Street Fighter)
10
17%
Birdo (SMB2)
5
8%
Vivian (Paper Mario: The 1000 Year Door)
9
15%
Frisk (Undertale)
4
7%
Alluka (Hunder x Hunter)
5
8%
Commander Hanji/Hange/Hans Zoe (Attack on Titan)
3
5%
Link/Linkle (Legend of Zelda) (fan theory)
10
17%
Taliyah (League of Legends)
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 59

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:15 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:You're all too forgiving. Do 40 laps around the field, let us pull off all your nails, and then pay us $33bn.


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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:10 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:You're all too forgiving. Do 40 laps around the field, let us pull off all your nails, and then pay us $33bn.


Grand Lolquisitor DI has assumed her title and job.


Image
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The Rich Port
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Rich Port » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:24 am

Geneviev wrote:I want to say to the people in this thread that I'm sorry for the things I said in the past. God doesn't give people the authority to judge others, and I was wrong. I'm really sorry.

Anyway, happy pride month.


Forgive me, brothers sisters, for I have sinned? :p I think that's your religious side guilting you.

Seriously, though takes some real 'nards to admit you were wrong, G. Good on you.
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Hediacrana
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Hediacrana » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:14 pm

Geneviev wrote:I want to say to the people in this thread that I'm sorry for the things I said in the past. God doesn't give people the authority to judge others, and I was wrong. I'm really sorry.

Anyway, happy pride month.
Probably every responsible adult has held views at some point that they're now embarrassed about. Good for you that you're recognizing past mistakes!

Also, personally speaking, I don't think I ever felt hurt by anything you wrote - instead, I felt sad for you because I knew you were trans while holding those views, which I just don't think is a great place to be in at all.
Last edited by Hediacrana on Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:44 pm

Geneviev wrote:I want to say to the people in this thread that I'm sorry for the things I said in the past. God doesn't give people the authority to judge others, and I was wrong. I'm really sorry.

Anyway, happy pride month.

If you aren't ashamed of your opinions in 7 years you aren't growing as a person.
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Arcturus Novus
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Postby Arcturus Novus » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:50 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Geneviev wrote:I want to say to the people in this thread that I'm sorry for the things I said in the past. God doesn't give people the authority to judge others, and I was wrong. I'm really sorry.

Anyway, happy pride month.

If you aren't ashamed of your opinions in 7 years you aren't growing as a person.

I think this'll be the first quote in years that I've deemed sig-worthy.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:50 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Grand Lolquisitor DI has assumed her title and job.


Image


Accurate. Very accurate.
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:52 am

US diplomats have been finding creative ways to show support for LGBTQ+ Pride month after the White House banned them from flying the rainbow flag.

Before this year embassies had routinely hoisted the flag - but this year they were required to seek approval from the state department, which reportedly refused all requests.

On Tuesday Vice-President Mike Pence said the ban was the "right decision".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48641960
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Cekoviu
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:32 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
US diplomats have been finding creative ways to show support for LGBTQ+ Pride month after the White House banned them from flying the rainbow flag.

Before this year embassies had routinely hoisted the flag - but this year they were required to seek approval from the state department, which reportedly refused all requests.

On Tuesday Vice-President Mike Pence said the ban was the "right decision".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48641960

But the Trump administration is pushing gay marriage abroad, so obviously they couldn't be homophobic. This is just a lie made up by the leftist media
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:34 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:

But the Trump administration is pushing gay marriage abroad, so obviously they couldn't be homophobic. This is just a lie made up by the leftist media

Banning transgenders from the military is sure supporting the LGBT community.
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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:39 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:

But the Trump administration is pushing gay marriage abroad, so obviously they couldn't be homophobic. This is just a lie made up by the leftist media

Fake and gay news.


Gormwood wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:But the Trump administration is pushing gay marriage abroad, so obviously they couldn't be homophobic. This is just a lie made up by the leftist media

Banning transgenders from the military is sure supporting the LGBT community.

He's saving them from his future wars.
Last edited by Ifreann on Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Rich Port
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Rich Port » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:00 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
US diplomats have been finding creative ways to show support for LGBTQ+ Pride month after the White House banned them from flying the rainbow flag.

Before this year embassies had routinely hoisted the flag - but this year they were required to seek approval from the state department, which reportedly refused all requests.

On Tuesday Vice-President Mike Pence said the ban was the "right decision".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48641960


https://time.com/5604611/mike-pence-emb ... ide-flags/

How much you wanna bet it's a fucking stupid reason like "security" when the Pride Flag's been flown for years before now without any issue.

My guess is this decriminalization campaign, while Grunell is legit about it, is being stonewalled and used for propaganda purposes.

Mike Pence especially has some fucking nerve pretending he's any kind of friend to the LGBT. Even TRUMP made fun of him for being a wannabe Inquisitor.

I hope he's having fun sitting around being a useless wart on the ass of America, licking the boots of a man who most likely has dementia.
LAUGH, AND GROW FAT
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FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE DONE.
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YOU NEVER KNOW JUST HOW YOU LOOK THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE'S EYES.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:23 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:


https://time.com/5604611/mike-pence-emb ... ide-flags/

How much you wanna bet it's a fucking stupid reason like "security" when the Pride Flag's been flown for years before now without any issue.

My guess is this decriminalization campaign, while Grunell is legit about it, is being stonewalled and used for propaganda purposes.

Mike Pence especially has some fucking nerve pretending he's any kind of friend to the LGBT. Even TRUMP made fun of him for being a wannabe Inquisitor.

I hope he's having fun sitting around being a useless wart on the ass of America, licking the boots of a man who most likely has dementia.

The BBC article says the following:

Mr Pence, an evangelical Christian, opposes gay marriage and has a history of supporting anti-LGBTQ+ legislation.

The ban has been backed by prominent evangelical Trump supporter Franklin Graham, who on Sunday tweeted that the gay pride flag was "offensive to Christians and millions of people of other faiths".
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:42 pm

Unfuckingbelievable.

Meanwhile, not even Fox can spin this in a good way:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/gregory ... e-flag-ban
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:18 pm

You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.
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Iciaros
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Postby Iciaros » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:23 pm

Torrocca wrote:You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.


I feel you. That happens to me sometimes. It makes me doubt too. It passes, though, and I'm fine the rest of the time, but it does make me unsure.

Still, though, I guess for me, I at least know I could never be happy being a male. If I'm not a girl, I would probably be non-binary. That gives me some comfort, but sometimes I wonder if I'm just a depressed guy...
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Khasinkonia
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Postby Khasinkonia » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:29 pm

Torrocca wrote:You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.

I get that feeling sometimes. Every now and then the catastrophising part of my brain just asks the question "What if being trans is a lie you tell yourself to try and explain an inevitable and all-consuming greyness that you're damned to drift through life in? What if you only believe you're trans because it's a very distracting remedy for an unsolvable problem?"

Then I go through the logical process of ruling it out as a coping mechanism and reasoning that only one case has a possible resolution.

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:30 pm

Torrocca wrote:You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.


If anything, coming out as transgender is the opposite of hiding. What benefits do you gain from being who you are right now, except your own self-fulfillment?

Hiding would be presenting yourself as something you're not. IMO, being transgender and/or queer is about realizing that what's fake is what society expects from us. Fact of the matter is, we are not perfect, we're not perfect little societal builders that many moralists think everyone should be. If you ask me, the society we live in right now is so sad and pathetic, and conforming to it is dooming the next generation to the same boring, monotonous, false happiness that many people feel, like we all have to hit the same markers in order to... Have worth, I guess?

Meanwhile, the worst of the worst of our society are the people that are supposed to contribute to it the most: the wealthy, the powerful, the elite. Why should we live according to how they think we should live? It's one thing if it benefits us, but if it only benefits others, and not even that many?

By coming out as transgender, who are we hiding from? Some sort of biological primeval requirement to procreate and kill our neighbors for sustenance? Please.

It's one thing to want a quiet life without any bumps, but to force others to do it because they're somehow inconveniencing you, especially transgender people, which in that case, what the fuck are inconveniencing?

Tor, lemme tell ya right now: the faster you stop worrying what people that aren't your loved ones think about you, the faster you'll realize the only people that matter are your loved ones.

My boss and the wife he married out of money? Screw him. My ancient neighbors and their obsession with my trash cans being crooked? Screw them. They want to be my friend, they can get in line like all of the other bums that make being friendly so hard.

I have friends that actively choose not to make my life anymore annoying than it already is, and in turn, I shower them with anything I have to offer. My mother always has the nerve to ask me why I'm so happy helping my friends out but I'm always reluctant to treat her with even a modicum of respect.

But that's another story.
Last edited by The Rich Port on Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LAUGH, AND GROW FAT
FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO BURN.
FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO LEARN.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE DONE.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE BECOME.
THOSE THAT SOW THORNS SHOULD NOT EXPECT FLOWERS.
YOU NEVER KNOW JUST HOW YOU LOOK THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE'S EYES.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:03 pm

Torrocca wrote:You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.

Yeah, sometimes. I often feel like I'm not really a trans-woman because I'm not dysphoric enough, or not girly enough. Or I often wonder if this is just a product of me being depressed or lost or something, and trying to find some way to cope. But if that's the case, I've only gotten more depressed after cracking, so if that's the case, it hasn't worked. And yet I strongly suspect that if I walked back on all this, declared myself a cis man and moved on, I would only feel even worse. I'm on Discord if you need to talk about stuff. :hug:
Last edited by The Xenopolis Confederation on Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:52 am

Luminesa wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Top Ten Ways to Start an Unnecessary Shitstorm.

Also Top Ten Ways to Lose Your Alliance with the Papal States in EU IV.

But this has really strayed from the issue of transgenderism, I think. OP needs to monitor the thread more for things like this.


Well, I'm sorry for having technical difficulties with my computer. Thread catch-up is ongoing.

Cekoviu wrote:
Luminesa wrote:Also Top Ten Ways to Lose Your Alliance with the Papal States in EU IV.

But this has really strayed from the issue of transgenderism, I think. OP needs to monitor the thread more for things like this.

OPs don't have thread ownership in NSG; there's not much they can do.


Also this, but I've told her this before, and she didn't seem to accept it then, and apparently doesn't accept it now.

What I can do is mostly the same as any other forumite: make a report. The ability to edit the OP/title/poll =/= "bosshood" over the thread or its community.
Last edited by Grenartia on Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:27 am

Hanafuridake wrote:


The Vatican also calls on doctors to ‘intervene’ on intersex patients, even when parents do not agree.

Intersex groups are against medically unnecessary procedures intended to ‘normalize’ infants at birth. Many of these procedures may impact a person’s quality of life.


Wait, so informed adults having sexual reassignment surgery performed is wrong, but doctors doing the procedure on babies is okay?


Introducing the Official Catholic Guide to When Sex Reassignment Surgery is OK:

0: Perfectly acceptable.
1: Kid is too young.
2: Kid is too young.
3: Kid is too young.
4: Kid is too young.
5: Kid is too young.
6: Kid is too young.
7: Kid is too young.
8: Kid is too young.
9: Kid is too young.
10: Kid is too young.
11: Kid is too young.
12: Kid is too young.
13: Kid is too young.
14: Kid is too young.
15: Kid is too young.
16: Kid is too young.
17: Kid is too young.
18+: Its just not fucking ok, ok?

Northern Davincia wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:
If you find the understanding to be faulty, then why not correct it? What are Hanafuridake and I misunderstanding?

God doesn't make mistakes. Exodus 4:11 and John 9:2-4 indicates that what us humans perceive as flaws are actually reminders to help those with "flaws."


Then it should be against surgical intervention of intersex babies.

Torrocca wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:God doesn't make mistakes. Exodus 4:11 and John 9:2-4 indicates that what us humans perceive as flaws are actually reminders to help those with "flaws."


Which would mean all LGBTQ+ people are perfectly valid.


God didn't make a mistake with trans people. She just wants us to live our lives as our true selves.

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Which would mean all LGBTQ+ people are perfectly valid.

Intentional, yes. Valid, no.
Kowani wrote:No? Counterexample: Pedophilia.

Can pedophiles not be rehabilitated or undergo therapy?


From what I understand, current treatment options for pedophilia aren't effective at all.

Somewhat ironically, I feel the Catholic organization's stated methods of how LGB people should be treated is precisely how people who struggle with pedophilia should be treated. And, how it has treated the child molesters it knew about for decades, and likely even centuries, by quite simply failing to give a shit, is only deplorable because of the harm done to the victims. But it would be a great policy for it to undertake with openly gay priests.


Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Intentional, yes. Valid, no.

Can pedophiles not be rehabilitated or undergo therapy?


Why aren’t LGBT people valid?


Because stupid bullshit.

Northern Davincia wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Why aren’t LGBT people valid?

Because they don't follow the human standard established by Adam and Eve.
Torrocca wrote:
Nope. God doesn't make mistakes, remember? That means God wanted LGBTQ+ people, which means we're all valid.

Not quite. People can be created and fall short of the human standard, but that does not give them free reign in their actions.
Necroghastia wrote:
So then... why is the Vatican saying doctors should surgically alter intersex children? If God doesn't make mistakes, then surely he intended for them to be intersex.

Yes, they were intended to be intersex and humans have the responsibility to help them. Surgical "correction" is simply the easiest way to have them conform to the human standard.


Define "the human standard".

Hanafuridake wrote:I don't really care about the homophobic and transphobic nature of the document because it's standard for the Vatican. What makes me angriest the most is that the Vatican thinks that it has the right to instruct doctors to perform cosmetic surgeries on children which could seriously injure them all because some priests are uncomfortable about the physical characteristics a child is born with. This is one of the most seriously bankrupt things they've done in a long time, all the while their supporters make unfounded claims that trans people support sexual reassignment surgery for kids.

Like always, the cries of children mean little to them.


Fucking amen, sis.

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Torrocca wrote:It sounds to me like you're questioning God's infallibility when the Bible makes it clear that God doesn't make mistakes. It's obvious God wanted the LGBTQ+ to exist and live life however we want to.

God makes narcissists, that does not mean he wants them to live a life of toxic pride and disregard for others. The argument that God made LGBTQ+ people, therefore they should live however they want doesn't follow.


Narcissism =/= LGBT+

Apples and footballs. When LGBT+ people living our lives as we wish inherently negatively impacts others, you'll have a point. Until such time, however, you do not.

Northern Davincia wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:
Performing SRS on an unconsenting infant is most certainly a denial of free will.

By that logic, so are vaccines. The infant cannot utilize free will, or even perceive it, in the same way adults can.


Unlike the surgeries, the vaccines have legitimate medical purpose.

These surgeries are much more comparable to circumcisions.

Torrocca wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Because race and sex are not abnormalities, they're quite normal. Being born with an extra arm is an abnormality, but removing it is not an act of malice.


Y'know, to be quite frank here, if the infallible Abrahamic God's interpretation of intersex people that God created is that they should be forced to undergo unwanted surgeries at the behest of a human institution and of LGBTQ+ people that God created is that we'll be burning in hell as sinners or whatever, then that God can really go fuck itself right the fuck on away from humanity, and so too can the Vatican.


Such a deity would be undeniably a dick, and inherently incapable of the love spoken of in the scriptures. So, it can safely be said that either God is anti-LGBT+ and the entire foundational premise of Christianity, spoken of in John 3:16, is false, or God loves everyone, including LGBT+ people, and wants us to be happy living our lives.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:This question is tangentially related to the ‘intersex children’ line of argument. Bear with me so I can explain my question. I am currently family planning with my husband. If I were to have a child and they were intersex what I’d do would be put them in blockers as soon as convenient, and as soon as they turn around 15-16 years of age, I’d ask about identity, how they feel and then start HRT depending on their determination. Is this a sound way to proceed? What would you do different? Did I miss something? Thoughts?


I'd bring up the identity question as soon as they're able to articulate it, and go with that unless or until they say otherwise. Other than that, I can't think of anything I'd do differently.

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Y'know, to be quite frank here, if the infallible Abrahamic God's interpretation of intersex people that God created is that they should be forced to undergo unwanted surgeries at the behest of a human institution and of LGBTQ+ people that God created is that we'll be burning in hell as sinners or whatever, then that God can really go fuck itself right the fuck on away from humanity, and so too can the Vatican.

It is your choice to think so, but I am only here to clarify the Vatican's viewpoint.


To what end? As you've clearly seen, your "clarification" did nothing to help the Vatican's (or your) case, and quite arguably, only worsened it.

Northern Davincia wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
The difference being that a vaccine is used to prevent someone from catching or spreading dangerous diseases. Most intersex organizations aren't opposed to surgery when performed to save a child's life.

And in this instance, surgery would be done for the sake of easing into society, like removing an unneeded extra limb.


How does being intersex hinder "easing into society" like having an extra limb, unless people are fucking staring at the kid's genitals 24/7?

Necroghastia wrote:
If as an adult they wish to undergo SRS, that should be their right. I'm not going to try to do a "WELLLL that's DIFFERENT" argument here about vaccines because I'm not the one who is asserting the existence of a benevolent and infallible god.

I'm of the opinion that it should be the parent's right to decide.


And if they make the wrong decision, they won't suffer the consequences. Not good enough, dammit.

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Not being able to marry who you love or be comfortable in your own body is much more than a narrow threat to your happiness.

Considering that vows of poverty are deemed noble in Christianity, earthly happiness is not worth pursuing as a be-all-end-all goal.


Except, there are noble ways of achieving earthly happiness even in poverty. Living as who you truly are, and being with someone you romantically love, are two such ways of so doing.

Galloism wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Being intersex has zero social effect unless you live in a nudist colony.

I assume where you live communal changing rooms are not a thing.


I've never stripped naked in a locker room. Never seen anyone else do so, either.

Cekoviu wrote:
Galloism wrote:I think you went to a nicer school than I did.

I'm thinking of public changing rooms like at a pool. I was homeschooled during middle and high school, so I haven't interacted with school changing rooms.
Regardless, it's not too hard to shield your privates with a towel when you change, and not showering is not extraordinarily atypical (though it won't win you friends).


Actually, I can speak to the fact that it kind of is hard to shield privates with anything while changing, as somoene who has been in locker rooms during middle and high school PE, and a season of HS football.

None of us got naked, we rarely even stripped to our underwear, and none of us were ever given enough time to take a shower (and the shower was so fucking disgusting, nobody would've used it even if we did have the time to). At least with nobody taking showers, we never judged or got judged for smelling bad, since we were all on an equal playing field.

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
And it's pretty clear that that viewpoint's morally fucked up and completely wrong according to the interpretation of God being infallible, since there's no justifiable argument neither you nor the Catholic Church can make that reconciles that fact with this shitty idea you're peddling that God created certain humans to be forced to live torturous lives or to be cursed to damnation from their birth.

No one is cursed to damnation


Except by the Vatican.

- that's a matter of choice -


What a convenient little compartmentalization you've got going there.

and no one is being forced to live a torturous life.


Maybe you should try walking a mile (or, as Matthew 5:41 suggests, go an extra mile) in our shoes, and living as how the Catholic organization says we must, before making that determination.

Obviously the Vatican is not Calvinist.


El Oh El Eggs Dee

You made a """funny""".

Scripture encourages restraint in one's life, but I can't stop anyone from living incorrectly if they wish to.


But you can, and do, judge.

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
And it's pretty clear that that viewpoint's morally fucked up and completely wrong according to the interpretation of God being infallible, since there's no justifiable argument neither you nor the Catholic Church can make that reconciles that fact with this shitty idea you're peddling that God created certain humans to be forced to live torturous lives or to be cursed to damnation from their birth.

No one is cursed to damnation


Except by the Vatican.

- that's a matter of choice -


What a convenient little compartmentalization you've got going there.

and no one is being forced to live a torturous life.


Maybe you should try walking a mile (or, as Matthew 5:41 suggests, go an extra mile) in our shoes, and living as how the Catholic organization says we must, before making that determination.

Obviously the Vatican is not Calvinist.


El Oh El Eggs Dee

You made a """funny""".

Scripture encourages restraint in one's life, but I can't stop anyone from living incorrectly if they wish to.


But you can, and do, judge.

Northern Davincia wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:It's a little scummy to go to someone who's forced to live a romanceless life or forced to live in a body they hate and say "Earthly happiness is overrated tho."

And it is.


Earthly happiness need not be inherently mutually exclusive with eternal happiness.

Necroghastia wrote:
Galloism wrote:This post made me think about Jews, Arabs, and an uncomfortably large number of Americans.


I mean, I'm definitely bitter over having been circumcised, especially since that means if I decide to go for SRS that means there's less... "raw material" to work with.


Even if I get SRS, I'm keeping mine (yes, that's actually possible), but the big problem for me is that circ reduces sensitivity, and introduces the beginning of a callous to the formerly protected area.

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Hediacrana wrote:
Not at all; Queer theology is a serious endeavor, and has been around for decades, both in affirming congregations and in academia.This book by professor Marcella Althaus-Reid is a good starter.

How do you reconcile queer theology with the Bible stating multiple times that homosexuality is immoral?


I could answer this, but I already know from prior experience, it'll just devolve into a shitfest, especially when the anti-LGBT contingent of Christians shows up.

Hediacrana wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
I guess I’m just trying to cover all my bases hypothetically. Nervous future mom, you know. Which is perhaps me anticipating a lot, I’m not pregnant. But this is a thought that has occupied me a few times. Maybe I’m also seeking to overprotect a hypothetical child. Time will tell here, right?

I can certainly relate - I became a parent last year. :)

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:How do you reconcile queer theology with the Bible stating multiple times that homosexuality is immoral?

The very issue is that that's a contested interpretation. Ideally, I'd really suggest you just take a look at that book that I linked to in the post you replied to, it's excellent, but in lieu of that, take a look at https://www.queertheology.com/what-do-we-do-with-the-bible/ and the resources listed on that page.


Congrats! And also, I'll have to remember to throw that link into the big infodump, when I can work on it.

Cekoviu wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:
I mean, I'm definitely bitter over having been circumcised, especially since that means if I decide to go for SRS that means there's less... "raw material" to work with.

My position towards it has always been not caring - doesn't matter if your penis was forcibly altered if you're not going to have it!


Not really an option for those of us who would get gender dysphoria from not having one.

Auze wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
I remember when Christian conservatives accused transgender people of pushing invasive surgeries on children, but now the Vatican is wanting doctors to do exactly that.

I mean, conjoined twins and those with similar birth defects are separated and have defects removed all the time. Considering intersex people by and large have characteristics that are closer to and will identify as one sex or the other, how is it any different?


1. Conjoined twins and the like have severe quality (and quantity) of life limitations imposed by their condition, and which the surgical option will reliably correct (or at least improve). Being intersex offers no inherent reduction in quality or quantity of life, and the surgical intervention does not reliably improve outcomes from it, and many who have had them report decreased quality of life.

2. The issue, especially with infants, is that being intersex is not life threatening, and whichever biological sex they are "closer" to is no guarantee of the gender identity they will grow up to have.

Hediacrana wrote:Some good news: Americans are becoming more supportive of trans rights - even the ones belonging to parts of society that are generally unsupportive.

Survey Shows Americans Are Becoming More Supportive of Transgender Rights Amid Federal Rollback of LGBTQ Protections:

More than six in ten Americans say they have become more supportive of transgender rights compared to their stances five years ago, according to a new survey.

The findings from the Public Religion Research Institute, a nonpartisan research organization, show a shift in public perception across political parties. Over three-quarters of Democrats surveyed reported being more supportive of transgender rights now than in 2014. Meanwhile, 64% of independents said they felt this way, and 47% of Republicans did.

Majorities from major religious groups also indicated their perceptions had changed, according to the survey, which contacted over 1,000 people. Nearly 70% of Catholics reported becoming more supportive of transgender rights over the last five years, versus 60% of nonwhite Protestants and 52% of white evangelical Protestants, the findings published Tuesday say.

Robert P. Jones, the CEO of the Public Religion Research Institute, suggested the shift is part of a larger trend of mounting LGBTQ support.

“Increase in support for transgender rights tracks fairly closely with the large increase in support for gay, lesbian and bisexual Americans,” he tells TIME. Jones also says the number of Americans who report having a close friend or family member who is transgender has doubled since 2015, and that “having a close relationship with someone transgender is strongly correlated with holding more supportive views of transgender rights.”

(...)

“Generally, the Trump administration’s policy directions, such as refusing to collect data on transgender Americans and restricting transgender military service, are flying against the wind of support for transgender rights in the country,” he says. “Virtually every demographic group in the country, including Republicans and white evangelical Protestants, report they have become more supportive of transgender rights over the last five years.”


Nice!

Though, I wonder if the number of Americans who know a trans person is now greater than the number who claim to have seen a ghost...

Luminesa wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Let them choose on their own fucking accord then, instead of having it forced on them against their will by an institution like the Vatican or whatever.

It’s not being “forced” by the Vatican. It’s being suggested.


With the implicit threat of damnation to hell for not doing so. A "suggestion" made at gunpoint is no suggestion, it is coercion, and most insidiously, the victims of the coercion aren't even the ones being coerced.

Cekoviu wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Conceal and carry rainbows daggers. With deadly aim.

I need to commission someone for this now


Shit, now I'm curious what mine would be.

Cekoviu wrote:
Blazelander wrote:
actually the statements are true, google them fren.

The statements are mostly at least partially true, but they are rather scattered about and don't support your conclusions.


Its like saying 2+2=4, therefore the Earth is flat.

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Blazelander wrote:
actually the statements are true, google them fren.

Some of the articles don't say what you say they say. For example, the one where you claimed that MTF trans people are just gay men trying to seduce straight men didn't say that. It said that MTF people who are homosexual (in the article's terminology, that they are attracted to men) are the ones who aren't autogynephiliacs and actually have brains neurologically shifted female.


Blanchardianism needs to crawl in a fucking hole and die. Repeatedly.

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Does that mean that transwomen who are into women are just autogynophiliacs with male brains?

According to the article, but I can't say if what it says is true.


Its not, because autogynephilia doesn't exist, at least not as a phenomenon exclusive to trans women. To whatever degree it exists, cis women experience it just as much, if not more, as I recall.

HumanSanity wrote:
Saint Ignis wrote:
You say that as if a) they haven't always been politicized and b) like being LGBT isn't inherently political, for better or worse. Usually worse.

I agree that being LGBT+ is inherently political.

Cishets always seem to find a way to be at the center of the struggles we have to deal with, so I'm glad some are openly trying to engage discussions about our communities and how to relate to us.

Sure, sometimes they need to butt out. But here they seem to *generally* either a) be trolls who don't give a shit about us, or b) be trying to talk to us like people.

Similarly, while I'm not hetero, I am cis. In my brief forays in this thread I like the vibe and the community, and where I feel it appropriate I try to share in that community. Sometimes I get the read of the conversation and either have no lived experience that contributes or realize it's not a conversation for me, and I stay away. But unless anyone here disagrees and wants to show me my place, I still feel like my contributions are... well somewhat meaningful.

As to why they care, I hate to use an overused line but, I care because I have trans friends. They share their experiences with me and explain why those experiences matter. Explain why kinship with other LGBT+ people and trans people matters. Explain how that affects their worldview. They don't have to do any of that, but they often do, and that makes me care because I have sympathy for people around me.

Anyways, that's why I, as a cis person, give a shit about "trans issues". I'm sure hetero people give a shit about non-hetero issues for similar reasons.


We appreciate and value our allies here!

Cekoviu wrote:
First American Empire wrote:
It's a lie, and so are almost all the other articles. I'm a trans woman attracted to women and I'm not an "autogynophiliac" or whatever it is. I am also monogamous, have never done drugs, don't drink, have only had one sex partner, who I did not sleep with until we were married for eight months*, have never had an STD, and am one of the most prudish people on NSG despite my religion not actually viewing sex as sinful.

*I would have right after marriage if SRS wasn't an issue.

Autogynephilia is an idiotic concept anyway, because in a survey ~90% of cis women respondents were judged to also have autogynephilia.
E: reference. Under a more rigorous definition, a significant minority of 28% still have autogynephilia.


Oh, cool. Proving me right even before I post!

Luminesa wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
Cisgender and Cisgender Heterosexual.

Wow. Okay. I guess that’s...really specific.


Necessary specificity, rest assured.

Scomagia wrote:
Saint Ignis wrote:
You say that as if a) they haven't always been politicized and b) like being LGBT isn't inherently political, for better or worse. Usually worse.

It isn't inherently political unless you subscribe to the idea that everything is inherently political.


Essentially everything in the human experience is political, to some degree or another. You can't prove me wrong. However, if you'd like to attempt to, make another thread about it.

Geneviev wrote:I want to say to the people in this thread that I'm sorry for the things I said in the past. God doesn't give people the authority to judge others, and I was wrong. I'm really sorry.

Anyway, happy pride month.


Its all apart of growing up. Trust me, I've said much worse in the past. What matters is that you recognize your mistakes, and are taking steps to rectify them.

Hediacrana wrote:
Geneviev wrote:I want to say to the people in this thread that I'm sorry for the things I said in the past. God doesn't give people the authority to judge others, and I was wrong. I'm really sorry.

Anyway, happy pride month.
Probably every responsible adult has held views at some point that they're now embarrassed about. Good for you that you're recognizing past mistakes!

Also, personally speaking, I don't think I ever felt hurt by anything you wrote - instead, I felt sad for you because I knew you were trans while holding those views, which I just don't think is a great place to be in at all.


Indeed.

Gormwood wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:But the Trump administration is pushing gay marriage abroad, so obviously they couldn't be homophobic. This is just a lie made up by the leftist media

Banning transgenders from the military is sure supporting the LGBT community.


Given Trump's draft dodging, he probably does see it, in some sick and twisted sense, as a "positive" thing he's done for us. After all, he's kept us from having to fight and die in a pointless war, and with a much better excuse out of it than "bone spurs"!

Torrocca wrote:You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.


Fam, self-doubt is an entirely normal feeling, especially in the time between hatching and transitioning. It goes away with time. :hug:

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:You ever just feel like you're wrong/lying to yourself about being trans because of eggish feelings or dysphoria mumbo-jumbo or whatever (news at eleven, Torra doesn't know how their brain works), and it just feels like you're lying presenting yourself a certain way?

Because holy fucking hell that is 100% me_irl right now.

Yeah, sometimes. I often feel like I'm not really a trans-woman because I'm not dysphoric enough, or not girly enough. Or I often wonder if this is just a product of me being depressed or lost or something, and trying to find some way to cope. But if that's the case, I've only gotten more depressed after cracking, so if that's the case, it hasn't worked. And yet I strongly suspect that if I walked back on all this, declared myself a cis man and moved on, I would only feel even worse. I'm on Discord if you need to talk about stuff. :hug:


What I just said to her goes for you, too.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
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Torrocca
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:30 am

I'm loving all this love and support <3 But, uh, seriously, the Egg of Self-Doubt and Confusion is looking mighty comfortable recently... :V
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
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Novus America
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:50 am

Torrocca wrote:I'm loving all this love and support <3 But, uh, seriously, the Egg of Self-Doubt and Confusion is looking mighty comfortable recently... :V


Have you spoken to a professional therapist trained in such things? That is almost certainly hot best option.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 am

Novus America wrote:Have you spoken to a professional therapist trained in such things? That is almost certainly hot best option.

Therapy can be many things, but I'd be concerned if it was hot...
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
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Cekoviu
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:03 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Novus America wrote:Have you spoken to a professional therapist trained in such things? That is almost certainly hot best option.

Therapy can be many things, but I'd be concerned if it was hot...

Sex therapy is a legitimate profession!
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NationStates should support \LaTeX
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Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"
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right-wingers: wat about vuvuzelaaa lmao gottem

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