TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Tarsonis]

It's pretty obnoxious that the trans community tells me who I'm supposed to be attracted to.

I literally said nothing about who you are supposed to be attracted to, and I consider it a benefit that someone like you wouldn't try to pursue me due to my trans status. Don't put words in my mouth.

Quite the contrary the issue at hand has been about sexual attraction based on gender presentation ass opposed to biological sex. The obvious implication that I'm supposed believe that trans women are women and date them or else I'm "transphobic" or whatever inane slander your group throws at people these days.

[Des-Bal]

Most trans people don't pass unfortunately. It's pretty difficult to even get HRT or SRS depending on where you live.

Even if they did get it when did they get it? Someone who began transitioning in adolescence is going to end up looking more convincing than someone who started in their 40s and even if they started young by the time you hit 60 it's an uphill battle.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Okay, no need to throw shade. *clutches pearls* Let's keep it polite and wholesome.

I'm not in the mood for polite or wholesome right now; quite the opposite.

Well get in the mood! ♪Cuz all you need is love!♪ And other platitudes. I'm bad at this.

[Cappuccina]

Most trans people don't pass unfortunately. It's pretty difficult to even get HRT or SRS depending on where you live.

SRS isn't really relevant to passing, because trans women can tuck and trans men can pack. HRT is definitely very useful, though, and perhaps if Tarsonis lives somewhere where HRT is difficult to access, their assumption is actually true.
However, it's not always required - I passed with just spironolactone, no HRT.

It is rather depending on individual basis, true. Done people can just pass with a few changes to presentation.

[Cekoviu]

I literally said nothing about who you are supposed to be attracted to, and I consider it a benefit that someone like you wouldn't try to pursue me due to my trans status. Don't put words in my mouth.

Quite the contrary the issue at hand has been about sexual attraction based on gender presentation ass opposed to biological sex. The obvious implication that I'm supposed believe that trans women are women and date them or else I'm "transphobic" or whatever inane slander your group throws at people these days.

If you don't think trans women are women, that is transphobic lol

[Tarsonis]

Quite the contrary the issue at hand has been about sexual attraction based on gender presentation ass opposed to biological sex. The obvious implication that I'm supposed believe that trans women are women and date them or else I'm "transphobic" or whatever inane slander your group throws at people these days.

If you don't think trans women are women, that is transphobic lol

Like I said, inane slander.

[Des-Bal]

It is rather depending on individual basis, true. Done people can just pass with a few changes to presentation.

There are also cisgender people who get mistaken for the opposite sex. Passing is really the conflux of genetics, talent, and timing. I'd be surprised to learn it worked out for most people.

[Cekoviu]

If you don't think trans women are women, that is transphobic lol

Like I said, inane slander.

Please, maintain your preferences. It'd do all trans women a favor.

[Des-Bal]

If you don't think trans women are women, that is transphobic lol

Would you say anyone who would't date a transgender person is transphobic?

[Tarsonis]

Like I said, inane slander.

Please, maintain your preferences. It'd do all trans women a favor.

Anything I can do to help the cause.

[Cappuccina]

It is rather depending on individual basis, true. Done people can just pass with a few changes to presentation.

There are also cisgender people who get mistaken for the opposite sex. Passing is really the conflux of genetics, talent, and timing. I'd be surprised to learn it worked out for most people.

True, very true.

Quite the contrary the issue at hand has been about sexual attraction based on gender presentation ass opposed to biological sex. The obvious implication that I'm supposed believe that trans women are women and date them or else I'm "transphobic" or whatever inane slander your group throws at people these days.

If you don't think trans women are women, that is transphobic lol

I wouldn't say "transphobic" exactly, definitely lacking understanding though.

[Tarsonis]

There are also cisgender people who get mistaken for the opposite sex. Passing is really the conflux of genetics, talent, and timing. I'd be surprised to learn it worked out for most people.

True, very true.

If you don't think trans women are women, that is transphobic lol

I wouldn't say "transphobic" exactly, definitely lacking understanding though.

No, not lacking understanding, rather rejecting the premise.

[Cekoviu]

If you don't think trans women are women, that is transphobic lol

I wouldn't say "transphobic" exactly, definitely lacking understanding though.

No, that's basically the quintessential transphobia.

[Cappuccina]

True, very true.



I wouldn't say "transphobic" exactly, definitely lacking understanding though.

No, not lacking understanding, rather rejecting the premise.

Which still wouldn't make you "transphobic", not necessarily. Playing devil's advocate here, an argument could be made that trans women aren't women. Even though I don't agree with that...it does beg the question, how far can the term "man" and "woman" be bent before they're meaningless (an issue I have with the left in general in regards to use of vocabulary).

[Des-Bal]

No, that's basically the quintessential transphobia.

How do you define transphobia?

Which still wouldn't make you "transphobic", not necessarily. Playing devil's advocate here, an argument could be made that trans women aren't women. Even though I don't agree with that...it does beg the question, how far can the term "man" and "woman" be bent before they're meaningless (an issue I have with the left in general in regards to use of vocabulary).

I think we can separate sex and gender at a physiological level and whether someone is referred to as a man or woman is purely an issue of whether the language refers to one category or the other. If woman refers to someone whose gender would be traditionally female then transgender women are women. You can argue one definition or the other but I don't think there's a risk of it becoming meaningless.

[Cekoviu]

No, not lacking understanding, rather rejecting the premise.

Which still wouldn't make you "transphobic", not necessarily. Playing devil's advocate here, an argument could be made that trans women aren't women. Even though I don't agree with that...it does beg the question, how far can the term "man" and "woman" be bent before they're meaningless (an issue I have with the left in general in regards to use of vocabulary).

I mean, if you define "woman" as "adult human with functional ovaries, a vulva, XX chromosomes, and estrogen outnumbering testosterone", yes? But that's nearly impossible to know if you're not a medical provider and it's not the generally used definition, as well as excluding quite a few non-transgender people, which is what linguistic meaning actually is. There is a very clear cut end to the way that "man" and "woman" are used: as soon as you stop identifying with those terms, you are not one.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

No, that's basically the quintessential transphobia.

How do you define transphobia?

Bigotry against trans people. If you do not think that a trans person is ever the gender they identify as then you are essentially against transgenderism, thus anti-trans.

[Cekoviu]

How do you define transphobia?

Bigotry against trans people. If you do not think that a trans person is ever the gender they identify as then you are essentially against transgenderism, thus anti-trans.

Please don't encourage sealioning.

[Des-Bal]

Bigotry against trans people. If you do not think that a trans person is ever the gender they identify as then you are essentially against transgenderism, thus anti-trans.

Well what is bigotry? Phobia, bigotry, anti-, these words prefixes, and suffixes evoke hate, fear, and prejudice. I think they're too often used as a cudgel against people whose bigotry is really just adopting a dissenting position.

Please don't encourage sealioning.

I am increasingly convinced you don't know what that word means. Asking someone to explain their position so you can in turn explain your own is not sea lioning or any other form of trolling, it just how discussions work.

[Tarsonis]

Bigotry against trans people. If you do not think that a trans person is ever the gender they identify as then you are essentially against transgenderism, thus anti-trans.

Well what is bigotry? Phobia, bigotry, anti-, these words prefixes, and suffixes evoke hate, fear, and prejudice. I think they're too often used as a cudgel against people whose bigotry is really just adopting a dissenting position.

You're not allowed to disagree Des, you must accept everything whole cloth. Otherwise you're some form of ist/phobic

[Cappuccina]

Which still wouldn't make you "transphobic", not necessarily. Playing devil's advocate here, an argument could be made that trans women aren't women. Even though I don't agree with that...it does beg the question, how far can the term "man" and "woman" be bent before they're meaningless (an issue I have with the left in general in regards to use of vocabulary).

I mean, if you define "woman" as "adult human with functional ovaries, a vulva, XX chromosomes, and estrogen outnumbering testosterone", yes? But that's nearly impossible to know if you're not a medical provider and it's not the generally used definition, as well as excluding quite a few non-transgender people, which is what linguistic meaning actually is. There is a very clear cut end to the way that "man" and "woman" are used: as soon as you stop identifying with those terms, you are not one.

Is it really about "identification" though? Even if we take sex out of the question, gender is integral to a person's being, cis or trans. There is no "identifying" you're either a man or a woman, innately.

If we make it simply about "identification" it waters the issue down to nothing but whim, that's how we get so-called "gender fluid" people.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Bigotry against trans people. If you do not think that a trans person is ever the gender they identify as then you are essentially against transgenderism, thus anti-trans.

Please don't encourage sealioning.

I don't really know if it is sealioning. Even if it is, it helps me develop my ideas at least.

[Des-Bal]

I don't really know if it is sealioning. Even if it is, it helps me develop my ideas at least.

Yeah that's pretty much what a discussion forum is about. Even if you can't change someone's ideas you can understand your own a little better.

[Cappuccina]

Please don't encourage sealioning.

I don't really know if it is sealioning. Even if it is, it helps me develop my ideas at least.

Can someone please tell me what "sealioning" is?

[Grenartia]

Nothing that inane but Des is correct. While allowing that gender presentation is a nuanced issue, sexual attraction is based the traits associated with biological sex, rather than strict gender presentation. I can only speak from personal anecdote but most mtf transpersons i've encountered were recognizable as such. Only once have I encountered someone who had transitioned so thoroughly it wasn't readily obvious, and after being informed they were trans, all semblance of attraction instantly evaporated.

You think that you only know trans women who look masculine because those are the only ones you recognize as trans. The majority of the trans people you've encountered pass and it's obnoxious that people still fall for this survivor bias bullshit.

Indeed.

Its also worth mentioning that this bit right here:

Only once have I encountered someone who had transitioned so thoroughly it wasn't readily obvious, and after being informed they were trans, all semblance of attraction instantly evaporated.

Only happened because he has a negative view of trans people in general.

And here's the heart of the issue. Everyone's ignorant and of course you can't be bothered to explain anything. This is why, you should note, that people dismiss how much these terms matter and write them off as cultural shibboleths. That said- I went ahead and touched base with wikipedia and Sjwiki to operationalize a definition and make sure we were talking about the same thing. I am not inviting you to be my tutor, I'm offering you the chance to explain or acknowledge what really looks like pointless snipping.

You're sealioning and you're accusing me of pointless snipping? I'm tired of your fucking bullshit.

This is the reason I have him on ignore.

You think that you only know trans women who look masculine because those are the only ones you recognize as trans. The majority of the trans people you've encountered pass and it's obnoxious that people still fall for this survivor bias bullshit.

It's pretty obnoxious that the trans community tells me who I'm supposed to be attracted to.

Except, nobody was saying that, at all. Stop trying to make yourself a "victim" of "the trans".

Only if they've transitioned so much that their body also presents as the opposite biological sex. For instance Emilia Clark fully dressed as John Snow parading around Time Square, I still find attractive. James Charles pronouncing around Coachella in female lingerie, I don't.

Most trans people don't pass unfortunately. It's pretty difficult to even get HRT or SRS depending on where you live.

Its a whole bunch of bullshit.

When we can't pass, we're "men in dresses" and thus not valid. When we do pass, we're "playing up to stereotypes of femininity", and thus not valid. Damned if we do, damned if we don't, and I'm sick and fucking tired of it.

Most trans people don't pass unfortunately. It's pretty difficult to even get HRT or SRS depending on where you live.

SRS isn't really relevant to passing, because trans women can tuck and trans men can pack. HRT is definitely very useful, though, and perhaps if Tarsonis lives somewhere where HRT is difficult to access, their assumption is actually true.
However, it's not always required - I passed with just spironolactone, no HRT.

Considering his sig says he graduated from Yale, I'm gonna guess somewhere in Massachusetts, and IIRC, HRT isn't that hard to get up there.

Also, you're the girl with the golden genetics.

I literally said nothing about who you are supposed to be attracted to, and I consider it a benefit that someone like you wouldn't try to pursue me due to my trans status. Don't put words in my mouth.

Quite the contrary the issue at hand has been about sexual attraction based on gender presentation ass opposed to biological sex. The obvious implication that I'm supposed believe that trans women are women and date them or else I'm "transphobic" or whatever inane slander your group throws at people these days.

God, I can just hear the passive-aggression dripping off of this post.

Yes, transwomen are women (and your incredulity at being expected to understand that is transphobic), and no, you're not supposed to always date us, but the fact that you've found one of us attractive prior to finding out she's trans, and then that attraction immediately went away is also proof of your ingrained transphobia. If she was attractive to you before, she should be attractive to you after.

SRS isn't really relevant to passing, because trans women can tuck and trans men can pack. HRT is definitely very useful, though, and perhaps if Tarsonis lives somewhere where HRT is difficult to access, their assumption is actually true.
However, it's not always required - I passed with just spironolactone, no HRT.

It is rather depending on individual basis, true. Done people can just pass with a few changes to presentation.

I feel like the whole preoccupation with passing is:

1. Ignorant of various issues that prevent people from actually passing.
2. Classist, as often, the requirements to reliably pass for many people who didn't luck out in the genetic jackpot are very expensive.
3. Toxic, since it only reinforces that we're only valid if we "look nice". Trans people who can't pass are fucking valid. Cis people who are ""unattractive"" are also fucking valid.

If you don't think trans women are women, that is transphobic lol

Like I said, inane slander.

You just don't like hearing that you have personal attitude problems that negatively affect other people and that you should work on.