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Trans Discussion Thread 4: Transitive Property of Equality

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who is your favorite contemporary trans celebrity?

Laverne Cox
3
7%
Natalie Wynn
15
36%
Chaz Bono
0
No votes
Thomas Beatie
0
No votes
Bailey Jay
3
7%
Laura Jane Grace
4
10%
Jazz Jennings
2
5%
Cavetown
2
5%
Kim Petras
4
10%
Other (please comment in the thread)
9
21%
 
Total votes : 42

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Drongonia
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Postby Drongonia » Tue May 21, 2019 12:09 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Drongonia wrote:
See there you are again making assumptions. I never said the vast majority of trans people think it's okay. You, and you alone, have been the only one talking about majorities, "us" "what we think" "how we feel" and other some-such nuances.


Literally almost every trans person who posts in this thread has been telling you lot that trap's a slur, lmao.

Des-Bal wrote:
You just dismissed the views of a group of people as evidence then used a smaller group as evidence to the contrary.


... It's not just here that trans people will tell you trap's a slur. There's literally even a bunch of other subreddits trans people use (like r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns) where trap's recognized as a slur.

You and as far as I can identify one other person, maybe two.Weeeewwww.......... 3 people telling me it's a slur out of at least the 48 people (based on the poll) who self-identify as trans.

3 out of 48.... you got me there.
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Drongonia
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Postby Drongonia » Tue May 21, 2019 12:10 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:... It's not just here that trans people will tell you trap's a slur. There's literally even a bunch of other subreddits trans people use (like r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns) where trap's recognized as a slur.


Are we counting forums now? Just listing locations where people have different opinions?

If that's the case I have this place called Stormfront you guys could check out, or KiwiFarms, or 8chan, or 4chan, or <insert edgy forums here>

It's a very very weak retort to dismiss what I said about a group of people and then use a different group of people as their evidence.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 12:12 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:... It's not just here that trans people will tell you trap's a slur. There's literally even a bunch of other subreddits trans people use (like r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns) where trap's recognized as a slur.


Are we counting forums now? Just listing locations where people have different opinions?


Considering Drongon brought up r/traps as an example that "lol some trans people think trap is okay therefore it's not a slur"? Yes, as counter-examples.

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:Except that "trap" most definitely is typically applied to trans people nowadays. Like I said, words and their meanings fucking evolve, chief. That it started off in reference to androgynous cis males is irrelevant (though shitty for different reasons) when it's used frequently to refer to trans people nowadays.



Source for who it's principally targeted at? If it started about cisgender men and you can't show it's not still mostly applied that way then you're calling something a slur even though it's generally not applied to the people it's apparently disparaging.


Okay, let's think about it in simple terms, because I'm doubtful either of us here could genuinely answer what "trap" is commonly used in reference to. Trans people (like me) are telling you it's a slur, correct? There are numerous trans communities, online and offline, that recognize it as a slur, right? What, exactly, would you think that's indicative of? That it is or that it isn't a slur for trans people?
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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Tue May 21, 2019 12:13 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I'm sorry, where in anywhere in those last few pages did any trans person try to police words?

Because I sure as fuck didn't see any of that happening.


Asking politely not to use words they don't like counts as policing and being rude and insensitive is freedom fighting, dontchaknow.

I suggest my approach: I won't use it in reference to you if you don't use it, but I'm damn well not dropping the word from my vocabulary just because you yelled at me over it.

Drongonia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
TIL'd that because some trans people are okay with being referred to as traps, that that suddenly means it's no longer a slur for the majority of trans people.

10/10

How do you know how the majority of trans people feel about it? Did you do a survey? Postal vote? Ring them up? DM them on tumblr? Please inform me on how you're able to so efficiently speak on behalf of an entire worldwide community.

In my experience, trans people with strong negative opinions on the word are a vocal minority. Typically, opinions rest around "indifference" or "we have bigger issues to worry about than an anime term".

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:So, by that same token, you wouldn't be comfortable with a black person telling you that calling them a "nigger" is a slur, either, right? Or a gay person telling you that calling them a "faggot" is also a slur, right?

Words and their meanings evolve. Just because "trap" started off referring to androgynous cis males doesn't mean jack shit to the fact that it's used derogatorily toward trans people.


Nigger and faggot are definitely slurs, but not because black and gay people happen to be upset by them. You're talking about a word that's not typically applied to transgender people and whose meaning is actually eroded by application to transgender people.

Hilariously I used those same two words as a demonstration of why the parts of groups that "decide" what words are and aren't okay are completely arbitrary and completely self-serving.

The Rich Port wrote:
Drongonia wrote:
Somebody already made the n-word argument and honestly it was kind of funny. They stopped responding after one thing I said. It's a weak argument as there are plenty of people who like to be called traps, but I've yet to meet a single black person who likes to be called a Nigger (hard r) or a gay person who likes being called a faggot.

Citing r/Traps again, ever seen it? It's a large community of transfolks who take pride in the thought of being traps and are happy with it. Is there a similar r/Niggers or r/Faggots sub? Doubt it. I only chose that because it's the easiest thing that came to mind, but regardless that's gotta be one of the weakest points out there.


We don't really care about people that aren't on this forum. It proves nothing about the wider trans-gendered or crossdressing community.

Also, probably because that's not allowed under Reddit's guidelines. Is Reddit now the authority on what is a slur because of that? Of course not.

It doesn't make the fact some people don't like being called "trap" not exist.

Maybe find better friends.

Now, "some" is very different from "most" or "all", mind you. Part of a group not liking a word just means you don't use that word in reference to them, not completely declare the word profane and forbidden. Maybe go so far as to limit your use of the word in their presence, but if they insist you wipe the word from your lexicon entirely they're not worth associating with.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue May 21, 2019 12:14 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:Except that "trap" most definitely is typically applied to trans people nowadays. Like I said, words and their meanings fucking evolve, chief. That it started off in reference to androgynous cis males is irrelevant (though shitty for different reasons) when it's used frequently to refer to trans people nowadays.



Source for who it's principally targeted at? If it started about cisgender men and you can't show it's not still mostly applied that way then you're calling something a slur even though it's generally not applied to the people it's apparently disparaging.

Novus America wrote:
That and the fact it is clearly grossly abused are reasons we should not allow it.
Which some states have already done.


Abuses can be dealt with by the courts, it's what they're for.


We decide what laws courts apply. And clearly in California the courts did not, which is why the legislature changed the law.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 12:14 pm

Drongonia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Literally almost every trans person who posts in this thread has been telling you lot that trap's a slur, lmao.



... It's not just here that trans people will tell you trap's a slur. There's literally even a bunch of other subreddits trans people use (like r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns) where trap's recognized as a slur.

You and as far as I can identify one other person, maybe two.Weeeewwww.......... 3 people telling me it's a slur out of at least the 48 people (based on the poll) who self-identify as trans.

3 out of 48.... you got me there.


48 people don't even post in this thread, ffs. Using the poll to say that the majority of trans people who post in this thread aren't telling you that trap is a slur is fucking stupid.

Drongonia wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
Are we counting forums now? Just listing locations where people have different opinions?

If that's the case I have this place called Stormfront you guys could check out, or KiwiFarms, or 8chan, or 4chan, or <insert edgy forums here>

It's a very very weak retort to dismiss what I said about a group of people and then use a different group of people as their evidence.


I'm sorry, who here was the first to cite an internet community where some trans people are okay with being called a "trap" as proof that trap isn't a slur?

That's right, it was you.
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I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
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Drongonia
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Postby Drongonia » Tue May 21, 2019 12:15 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Drongonia wrote:You and as far as I can identify one other person, maybe two.Weeeewwww.......... 3 people telling me it's a slur out of at least the 48 people (based on the poll) who self-identify as trans.

3 out of 48.... you got me there.


48 people don't even post in this thread, ffs. Using the poll to say that the majority of trans people who post in this thread aren't telling you that trap is a slur is fucking stupid.

Drongonia wrote:If that's the case I have this place called Stormfront you guys could check out, or KiwiFarms, or 8chan, or 4chan, or <insert edgy forums here>

It's a very very weak retort to dismiss what I said about a group of people and then use a different group of people as their evidence.


I'm sorry, who here was the first to cite an internet community where some trans people are okay with being called a "trap" as proof that trap isn't a slur?

That's right, it was you.

I was the one to bring it up, but you're the one who hypocritically made out that that wasn't valid... and then proceeded to use a different community's perceived beliefs to get your point across.
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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Tue May 21, 2019 12:16 pm

r/traaaaaa is in the same vein as r/socialism tbqh
random stupid bans because some mod got an idea in their noggin, next thing you know, cat girls are illegal

political/identity subreddits and their meme counterparts are universally trash, only the video game subreddits have merit, and even then not always
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 12:16 pm

Drongonia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
48 people don't even post in this thread, ffs. Using the poll to say that the majority of trans people who post in this thread aren't telling you that trap is a slur is fucking stupid.



I'm sorry, who here was the first to cite an internet community where some trans people are okay with being called a "trap" as proof that trap isn't a slur?

That's right, it was you.

I was the one to bring it up, but you're the one who hypocritically made out that that wasn't valid... and then proceeded to use a different community's perceived beliefs to get your point across.


TIL'd that it's hypocrisy to say that a minority opinion on a term doesn't mean that the term isn't a slur.

10/10
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I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

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Drongonia
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Postby Drongonia » Tue May 21, 2019 12:20 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Drongonia wrote:I was the one to bring it up, but you're the one who hypocritically made out that that wasn't valid... and then proceeded to use a different community's perceived beliefs to get your point across.


TIL'd that it's hypocrisy to say that a minority opinion on a term doesn't mean that the term isn't a slur.

10/10

TIL'd that you can put whatever you want after a "TIL'd" and you're automatically right and have shut down your opponent without actually having to have a reasoned debate.

11/10 would leftist again
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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Tue May 21, 2019 12:21 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Drongonia wrote:I was the one to bring it up, but you're the one who hypocritically made out that that wasn't valid... and then proceeded to use a different community's perceived beliefs to get your point across.


TIL'd that it's hypocrisy to say that a minority opinion on a term doesn't mean that the term isn't a slur.

10/10

Where's the evidence that "it's not a slur" is the minority opinion? You've been acting as if it were fact from square one with no evidence to back you up.
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Drongonia
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Postby Drongonia » Tue May 21, 2019 12:22 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
TIL'd that it's hypocrisy to say that a minority opinion on a term doesn't mean that the term isn't a slur.

10/10

Where's the evidence that "it's not a slur" is the minority opinion? You've been acting as if it were fact from square one with no evidence to back you up.

Yeah that's what I've been saying near enough to this whole time.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 12:22 pm

Drongonia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
TIL'd that it's hypocrisy to say that a minority opinion on a term doesn't mean that the term isn't a slur.

10/10

TIL'd that you can put whatever you want after a "TIL'd" and you're automatically right and have shut down your opponent without actually having to have a reasoned debate.

11/10 would leftist again


TIL'd it's a "reasoned debate" to tell minorities what is or isn't a slur to them.

10/10 I've really been DESTROYED by FACTS and LOGIC now.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue May 21, 2019 12:24 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
Asking politely not to use words they don't like counts as policing and being rude and insensitive is freedom fighting, dontchaknow.

I suggest my approach: I won't use it in reference to you if you don't use it, but I'm damn well not dropping the word from my vocabulary just because you yelled at me over it.

Drongonia wrote:How do you know how the majority of trans people feel about it? Did you do a survey? Postal vote? Ring them up? DM them on tumblr? Please inform me on how you're able to so efficiently speak on behalf of an entire worldwide community.

In my experience, trans people with strong negative opinions on the word are a vocal minority. Typically, opinions rest around "indifference" or "we have bigger issues to worry about than an anime term".

Des-Bal wrote:
Nigger and faggot are definitely slurs, but not because black and gay people happen to be upset by them. You're talking about a word that's not typically applied to transgender people and whose meaning is actually eroded by application to transgender people.

Hilariously I used those same two words as a demonstration of why the parts of groups that "decide" what words are and aren't okay are completely arbitrary and completely self-serving.

The Rich Port wrote:
We don't really care about people that aren't on this forum. It proves nothing about the wider trans-gendered or crossdressing community.

Also, probably because that's not allowed under Reddit's guidelines. Is Reddit now the authority on what is a slur because of that? Of course not.

It doesn't make the fact some people don't like being called "trap" not exist.

Maybe find better friends.

Now, "some" is very different from "most" or "all", mind you. Part of a group not liking a word just means you don't use that word in reference to them, not completely declare the word profane and forbidden. Maybe go so far as to limit your use of the word in their presence, but if they insist you wipe the word from your lexicon entirely they're not worth associating with.


My guess is they're yelling at you because you refuse to stop using it. Also, that's a rather specific condition. Are you not a part of this community that makes it OK for you to say the word.

Have you actually been doing that or have you just been using it regardless of people asking you not to. Also, that's not what people asked you to do. They asked you NOT TO USE IT, not limit it. While people have no jurisdiction over you using it with somebody who doesn't mind being called that, they do have jurisdiction over you using it in your presence.

That's how... Relationships in society work. You not respecting people's opinions means people don't have to respect YOUR opinions and vice versa.
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Drongonia
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Postby Drongonia » Tue May 21, 2019 12:24 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Drongonia wrote:TIL'd that you can put whatever you want after a "TIL'd" and you're automatically right and have shut down your opponent without actually having to have a reasoned debate.

11/10 would leftist again


TIL'd it's a "reasoned debate" to tell minorities what is or isn't a slur to them.

10/10 I've really been DESTROYED by FACTS and LOGIC now.

TIL'd that as long as you belong to a group you get to act like you speak for all of them.

Unrelated, all men pee with their pants down because I said so and I don't need any evidence for that since I am one. All conservatives are also rich oil barrons because I said so and I don't need any evidence for it, because I am one.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 12:25 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Considering Drongon brought up r/traps as an example that "lol some trans people think trap is okay therefore it's not a slur"? Yes, as counter-examples.

Okay, let's think about it in simple terms, because I'm doubtful either of us here could genuinely answer what "trap" is commonly used in reference to. Trans people (like me) are telling you it's a slur, correct? There are numerous trans communities, online and offline, that recognize it as a slur, right? What, exactly, would you think that's indicative of? That it is or that it isn't a slur for trans people?



He noted that the opposition did not represent the entire community so the people suggesting their own status as transgender made them authorities had no business speaking for everyone.


I don't care about your gender. It does not matter to me, I do not consider it to elevate the importance of your opinion and it does not enter into my assessment of what is and is not a slur. I don't think people on the internet being offended by something indicates anything except that hell's still not the best place for a snowball.
Last edited by Des-Bal on Tue May 21, 2019 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Tue May 21, 2019 12:29 pm

Drongonia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Where's the evidence that "it's not a slur" is the minority opinion? You've been acting as if it were fact from square one with no evidence to back you up.

Yeah that's what I've been saying near enough to this whole time.

I'm not surprised that you've been ignored and dismissed on that point tbh. It's easier to ignore hard questions and act as if they were never asked in the first place.

The Rich Port wrote:<snip>

RP, learn to divide posts so I know what the hell you're actually responding to.

Though with what I can discern, that goes back to the point I established at the end - if they want me to excise the word from my vocabulary, even if they aren't remotely present, they should be cut off like a dead weight. Such controlling toxicity deserves no place in my presence. Sure, I likely will suspend usage in their presence (accompanied by a reduction in discussion with them in general, of course, since that itself is pretty toxic too), but not universally.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue May 21, 2019 12:32 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Considering Drongon brought up r/traps as an example that "lol some trans people think trap is okay therefore it's not a slur"? Yes, as counter-examples.

Okay, let's think about it in simple terms, because I'm doubtful either of us here could genuinely answer what "trap" is commonly used in reference to. Trans people (like me) are telling you it's a slur, correct? There are numerous trans communities, online and offline, that recognize it as a slur, right? What, exactly, would you think that's indicative of? That it is or that it isn't a slur for trans people?



He noted that the opposition did not represent the entire community so the people suggesting their own status as transgender made them authorities had no business speaking for everyone.


I don't care about your gender. It does not matter to me, I do not consider it to elevate the importance of your opinion and it does not enter into my assessment of what is and is not a slur. I don't think people on the internet being offended by something indicates anything except that hell's still not the best place for a snowball.


TIL having firsthand experience in something, in a sense being a primary source in and of yourself, means your opinion is exactly as relevant as Random Joe Schmoe's.
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Drongonia
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Postby Drongonia » Tue May 21, 2019 12:32 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Drongonia wrote:Yeah that's what I've been saying near enough to this whole time.

I'm not surprised that you've been ignored and dismissed on that point tbh. It's easier to ignore hard questions and act as if they were never asked in the first place.

The Rich Port wrote:<snip>

RP, learn to divide posts so I know what the hell you're actually responding to.

Though with what I can discern, that goes back to the point I established at the end - if they want me to excise the word from my vocabulary, even if they aren't remotely present, they should be cut off like a dead weight. Such controlling toxicity deserves no place in my presence. Sure, I likely will suspend usage in their presence (accompanied by a reduction in discussion with them in general, of course, since that itself is pretty toxic too), but not universally.


This entirely ^^^^ Anyway I have stuff to do. Gotta go to work since it's about 7:30 over here. Have a good day all you NSers, traps or otherwise. ;)
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 12:33 pm

Necroghastia wrote:TIL having firsthand experience in something, in a sense being a primary source in and of yourself, means your opinion is exactly as relevant as Random Joe Schmoe's.


It's a good lesson, you're not special and words mean what they mean.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue May 21, 2019 12:33 pm

Drongonia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
TIL'd it's a "reasoned debate" to tell minorities what is or isn't a slur to them.

10/10 I've really been DESTROYED by FACTS and LOGIC now.

TIL'd that as long as you belong to a group you get to act like you speak for all of them.

Unrelated, all men pee with their pants down because I said so and I don't need any evidence for that since I am one. All conservatives are also rich oil barrons because I said so and I don't need any evidence for it, because I am one.


It's totally like I'm the only one who thinks trap's a slur. It's totally not like the majority opinion is that trap's a slur. It's not like important trans members of the community also recognize it as such.

I could go on and on.
Last edited by Torrocca on Tue May 21, 2019 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Tue May 21, 2019 12:36 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Drongonia wrote:Yeah that's what I've been saying near enough to this whole time.

I'm not surprised that you've been ignored and dismissed on that point tbh. It's easier to ignore hard questions and act as if they were never asked in the first place.

The Rich Port wrote:<snip>

RP, learn to divide posts so I know what the hell you're actually responding to.

Though with what I can discern, that goes back to the point I established at the end - if they want me to excise the word from my vocabulary, even if they aren't remotely present, they should be cut off like a dead weight. Such controlling toxicity deserves no place in my presence. Sure, I likely will suspend usage in their presence (accompanied by a reduction in discussion with them in general, of course, since that itself is pretty toxic too), but not universally.


Is that a demand or a request. :roll:

I don't see why that bothers you so much, they don't know you're not using. Just be like "OK lol", not do it in front of them, and then just do it anyway with your alleged trap friendly traps.

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Necroghastia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Necroghastia » Tue May 21, 2019 12:38 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:TIL having firsthand experience in something, in a sense being a primary source in and of yourself, means your opinion is exactly as relevant as Random Joe Schmoe's.


It's a good lesson, you're not special and words mean what they mean.


The irony of this statement is lost, I'm guessing.
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Des-Bal
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 12:39 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Is that a demand or a request. :roll:

I don't see why that bothers you so much, they don't know you're not using. Just be like "OK lol", not do it in front of them, and then just do it anyway with your alleged trap friendly traps.

Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack, Rule of Acquisition 109.



Yeah that's stupid. There's absolutely no fucking reason to kowtow to that kind of demand. If someone wishes to dictate the way you speak when you are not speaking to them then fuck them.
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Des-Bal
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Tue May 21, 2019 12:41 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
The irony of this statement is lost, I'm guessing.


It's not lost, you've just imagined it. Whether it's a slur or not has nothing to do with who you specifically are.
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