TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Drongonia]

How do you know how the majority of trans people feel about it? Did you do a survey? Postal vote? Ring them up? DM them on tumblr? Please inform me on how you're able to so efficiently speak on behalf of an entire worldwide community.

Do you seriously somehow think a word that basically degrades a trans person to the likes of a sexual predator who tricks people into sexual acts (which has gotten trans people fucking killed because of "trans panic" bullshit) isn't a slur for the majority of us? Seriously?

There you go again, speaking on behalf of the majority. Personally, if someone was to ask me NOT to call them a trap, I would oblige them out of respect and common courtesy, not because the word is a slur.

[Des-Bal]

I think the real question is, why do you care so much about being able to say and not be shamed for saying a (not-that-commonly used) word that you know is hurtful to a large group of people?

So having established that we are in fact policing language we are now stuck on "well why are upset about policing language." If you don't want to be called something that's fine the problem only arises when you say it's a slur and that anyone who uses it is a bad person.

[Necroghastia]

I think the real question is, why do you care so much about being able to say and not be shamed for saying a (not-that-commonly used) word that you know is hurtful to a large group of people?

McFreedom™ forever

That's why

You realize by the same token that's exactly the reason why you shouldn't complain when people use their McFreedom™ to tell you that it's not an okay word to use, right?

[Necroghastia]

I think the real question is, why do you care so much about being able to say and not be shamed for saying a (not-that-commonly used) word that you know is hurtful to a large group of people?

So having established that we are in fact policing language we are now stuck on "well why are upset about policing language." If you don't want to be called something that's fine the problem only arises when you say it's a slur and that anyone who uses it is a bad person.

Do answer the question, please. What problem?

[Drongonia]

That's why

You realize by the same token that's exactly the reason why you shouldn't complain when people use their McFreedom™ to tell you that it's not an okay word to use, right?

Like I said, if someone doesn't want me to call them a trap, I'll oblige. But McFreedom™ dictates that there shouldn't be a blanket "this is a slur and you shouldn't say it" policy regarding the term.

[Torrocca]

Do you seriously somehow think a word that basically degrades a trans person to the likes of a sexual predator who tricks people into sexual acts (which has gotten trans people fucking killed because of "trans panic" bullshit) isn't a slur for the majority of us? Seriously?

There you go again, speaking on behalf of the majority. Personally, if someone was to ask me NOT to call them a trap, I would oblige them out of respect and common courtesy, not because the word is a slur.

The word's not a slur to you. Similarly to how "nigger" isn't a slur to white people or "faggot" isn't a slur to heterosexual people. Just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean jack fucking shit; trans people have literally been killed because of this shitty fucking notion that we're trying to "trap" people into having sex with somebody of a gender they wouldn't have sex with.

[Des-Bal]

Do you seriously somehow think a word that basically degrades a trans person to the likes of a sexual predator who tricks people into sexual acts (which has gotten trans people fucking killed because of "trans panic" bullshit) isn't a slur for the majority of us? Seriously?

The term arouse out of 4chan and was associated with androgynous but cisgender male characters. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with transgender people telling us cisgender males what is and is not a slur.

[Torrocca]

Do you seriously somehow think a word that basically degrades a trans person to the likes of a sexual predator who tricks people into sexual acts (which has gotten trans people fucking killed because of "trans panic" bullshit) isn't a slur for the majority of us? Seriously?

The term arouse out of 4chan and was associated with androgynous but cisgender male characters. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with transgender people telling us cisgender males what is and is not a slur.

So, by that same token, you wouldn't be comfortable with a black person telling you that calling them a "nigger" is a slur, either, right? Or a gay person telling you that calling them a "faggot" is also a slur, right?

Words and their meanings evolve. Just because "trap" started off referring to androgynous cis males doesn't mean jack shit to the fact that it's used derogatorily toward trans people.

[Grenartia]

How is it inconsequential? Don't you think most people care about the genitals of their sexual partners?

As a drunken hedonist with extensive experience in this, I can authoritatively say, no.

"But Rich Port, most people aren't drunken hedonists"

College students are a fairly significant population.

I'd also like to point out that its pretty fucking hard (heh heh) to hide what genitals you have during sex.

The idea of having sex with someone with different genitals than you expect (if it wasn't obvious) and only finding out afterwards is an act of having your sexuality manipulated.

Please, enlighten me. How can you not know what set of genitalia someone has while you're having sex with them?

The person who was being told something "fairly inconsequential" just had sex with essentially a different person than they thought.

Not really. They have the same personality, interests, sense of humor, manner of carrying themselves, etc. None of that is determined by what someone else thinks their genitals are.

If beforehand she says she's a woman, or is at least looking/acting in such a way that you'd expect her to be one, and you find out she's transgender, non-binary or anything else afterwards, you just had your sexuality manipulated.

What if you're a vegan, and your partner says, right after sex "Damn, that was better than bacon!"? Would that be "having your sexuality manipulated"?

If anyone would know the harm that could do, I'd have thought it'd be the LGBT community or members of it.

EDIT: Personally, I don't care sexually, any hole's a goal. But I'd still be angry that I'd been lied to or at the very least decieved.

If "any hole's a goal", then maybe you should take it as a pleasant surprise, and stop presuming cis as the default. And if you really don't like pleasant bedroom surprises, you should ask the appropriate questions before having sex with someone (not that you should even be worried about this, since most trans people will come out to someone before having sex with them anyways).

The idea of having sex with someone with different genitals than you expect (if it wasn't obvious) and only finding out afterwards is an act of having your sexuality manipulated. The person who was being told something "fairly inconsequential" just had sex with essentially a different person than they thought.

If beforehand she says she's a woman, or is at least looking/acting in such a way that you'd expect her to be one, and you find out she's transgender, non-binary or anything else afterwards, you just had your sexuality manipulated. If anyone would know the harm that could do, I'd have thought it'd be the LGBT community or members of it.

EDIT: Personally, I don't care sexually, any hole's a goal. But I'd still be angry that I'd been lied to or at the very least decieved.

... Which yeah.

How does one find out what the genitals are.

AFTER?

Is there some kind of stealth technology that hides something so painfully obvious, or did you mean right before?

Clearly, our community's scientists have developed some technology I was not made aware of. I must rectify this discrepancy.

... Which yeah.

How does one find out what the genitals are.

AFTER?

Is there some kind of stealth technology that hides something so painfully obvious, or did you mean right before?

I mean... what if I was blind? Or she just said "I want to do it with you putting this blindfold on" or some other kinky shit like that? I mean, people do that sort of thing, that's why this debate exists.

Then take the fucking initiative to ask questions before having sex, if it bothers you so damn much.

Oh, I forgot that cis people got to define what is or isn't offensive to trans people. My bad.

I don't agree with this extreme unilateralism. Yes, the average trans person will on average have a more informed opinion on whether a word for trans people is good or not, but a cis person can still have a valid opinion if it's backed up by decent evidence or reasoning.

99.99999% of the time, they have neither decent evidence nor reasoning to back them up.

For "a drunken hedonist with extensive experience" you're having a hard time working out how to have sexual contact with someone without seeing their genitals. Gwen Araujo is one of the bigger cases and she hid her genitals with her hands during the act.

If you're so unobservant that you can't see someone suspiciously covering up a penis, I feel like you have bigger issues.
I don't really think that it's okay for people to intentionally hide the fact that they're trans from a partner, but come on.

Also, that blatant victim blaming of a brutal murder victim, and gaslighting the rest of us about the factors that contributed to it. Shit like that reminds me why I put DB on my ignore list, and I only wish it worked on quoted posts.

Has anybody in this thread advocated anything even close to banning the term? Because the most extreme views that I've seen here are "it's a slur and you're not that pro-trans if you use it."

Maybe not banning it, no, but it's not a slur to everyone. One person or a group of people claiming to represent all trans folks don't get to decide if it's a slur or not.

Do a majority of trans people get to decide if its a slur or not?

For "a drunken hedonist with extensive experience" you're having a hard time working out how to have sexual contact with someone without seeing their genitals. Gwen Araujo is one of the bigger cases and she hid her genitals with her hands during the act.

With her hands.

Truly. Some 4D chess there. Only a genius could figure that one out.

Considering that she was then murdered by the four subhumans she provoked so thoroughly, I think it hints to the kind of caliber of human being that can get tricked by such an obvious "trick".

Kind of a bad example to bring up, in all honesty.

This is the best possible response, and I thank you for it.

You're not being "tricked" into having sex with someone. You're consensually having sex with someone, then they tell you something fairly inconsequential about themselves (that may have even been obvious) that you didn't know before.

TBH, if it's not obvious by the time you're doing the horizontal tango, you're not getting "trapped" you're just an idiot. Your sexual partner thinks you enjoyed it, so they confide in you, then you try to kill them.....good job.

Like, if that's your reaction, after your sexual partner confides in you, then you're a shit-tier human being who should never have been able to experience the joy of the act in the first place.

TBH, if it's not obvious by the time you're doing the horizontal tango, you're not getting "trapped" you're just an idiot. Your sexual partner thinks you enjoyed it, so they confide in you, then you try to kill them.....good job.

I don't think anyone is saying it was acceptable to murder her in that situation or any similar one.

Many of us here have seen people like DB come in, rant about " trans deception", and then before you know it, we're talking about whether or not its rape, and whether or not cold-blooded murder is an appropriate response to rape.

It's not that obvious if you're partially clothed, and it's hardly obvious at all if you're fully clothed. There is really no point to playing up how unobservant someone would have to be because we've established that the deception, the failure to reveal it can both happen. I don't know what "come on" means in this context- it's not a crazy hypothetical it's a thing that happened and sparked a pretty brutal murder.

If you're clothed, obviously that's true. But trans women aren't specifically trying to hide anything for reasons of deception by tucking when clothed - it's practical, relieves dysphoria, and avoids being unnecessarily outed. So that would by no means be malicious.
It's just incredibly stupid to not be able to tell if a naked person has a penis or not, which is why I said "come on" (in references to the perps).

Besides, given the amount of effort that goes into tucking, and the absolute headache it is to fix when the tuck pops, her holding her hand over it would absolutely make sense.

It does happen, "trapping" that is... though I doubt it is done maliciously when it does. It's a two-way thing, the guy's not observant enough to tell, and the trans person doesn't notice the guy doesn't notice.

I honestly don't think it happens often enough for it to be a major concern. Its like worrying that you're going to be killed by a meteor headshotting you while you're walking to your car.

Also, everyone talks about how we "need to disclose" our trans status on the first date, but nobody says that transphobes need to disclose their hatred for trans people. Of the two, theirs is a lot more dangerous of a secret than ours.

I don't think anyone is saying it was acceptable to murder her in that situation or any similar one.

I'm sure nobody is arguing that (in good faith, at least, aware of their ignorant implications), but the fact of the matter is, who is this affecting, and WHY is it such a big deal.

If it's a rape situation, an exploitative situation, where the person shows no remorse or has no reason to beyond cribbing sex (an issue I find trans people don't really have an issue with nowadays, considering transphilia is at an all time high) from straight people, by citing ridiculously specific criteria (that you'd have to be a moron to fall for), fine.

But that's simply not the fucking issue here.

The issue here is a marginalized population that people keep spreading myths about in the hopes that they'll be pushed back into the shadows.

What we need to be doing is encouraging trans people to be more open about their situations and their emotions, not citing murder victims as notorious liars and to watch out for the Trap Menace conspiracy theory.

Fucking thank you. Also, I'm shocked that I have no idea what cribbing sex is.

Huh, I see it was "cis people telling trans people that 'trap' isn't actually a slur" hour for a few pages here.

Nice.

Place fucking blew up while I was doing laundry.

So the words a slur and anyone who uses it isn't even a remotely decent person. Yeah no language policing here.

Saying something is a slur implies it shouldn't be said, as a slur by definition is a negative thing.

I think the real question is, why do you care so much about being able to say and not be shamed for saying a (not-that-commonly used) word that you know is hurtful to a large group of people?

Asking the real damn questions here.

TIL'd that because some trans people are okay with being referred to as traps, that that suddenly means it's no longer a slur for the majority of trans people.

10/10

How do you know how the majority of trans people feel about it? Did you do a survey? Postal vote? Ring them up? DM them on tumblr? Please inform me on how you're able to so efficiently speak on behalf of an entire worldwide community.

Because we talk to each other, and we generally agree that its a slur. Though, I'll remember to bring it up for an official vote at the next World Trans Congress, thanks for reminding me.

Do you seriously somehow think a word that basically degrades a trans person to the likes of a sexual predator who tricks people into sexual acts (which has gotten trans people fucking killed because of "trans panic" bullshit) isn't a slur for the majority of us? Seriously?

There you go again, speaking on behalf of the majority. Personally, if someone was to ask me NOT to call them a trap, I would oblige them

That should be end of discussion.

out of respect and common courtesy, not because the word is a slur.

What's the difference? It wouldn't be out of respect and common courtesy if it weren't a slur.

[Drongonia]

There you go again, speaking on behalf of the majority. Personally, if someone was to ask me NOT to call them a trap, I would oblige them out of respect and common courtesy, not because the word is a slur.

The word's not a slur to you. Similarly to how "nigger" isn't a slur to white people or "faggot" isn't a slur to heterosexual people. Just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean jack fucking shit; trans people have literally been killed because of this shitty fucking notion that we're trying to "trap" people into having sex with somebody of a gender they wouldn't have sex with.

Somebody already made the n-word argument and honestly it was kind of funny. They stopped responding after one thing I said. It's a weak argument as there are plenty of people who like to be called traps, but I've yet to meet a single black person who likes to be called a Nigger (hard r) or a gay person who likes being called a faggot.

Citing r/Traps again, ever seen it? It's a large community of transfolks who take pride in the thought of being traps and are happy with it. Is there a similar r/Niggers or r/Faggots sub? Doubt it. I only chose that because it's the easiest thing that came to mind, but regardless that's gotta be one of the weakest points out there.

[The Rich Port]

You realize by the same token that's exactly the reason why you shouldn't complain when people use their McFreedom™ to tell you that it's not an okay word to use, right?

Like I said, if someone doesn't want me to call them a trap, I'll oblige. But McFreedom™ dictates that there shouldn't be a blanket "this is a slur and you shouldn't say it" policy regarding the term.

If you are incapable of respecting trans-gendered people on a simple request, why should they bother even considering interacting with you, let alone listening to anything you have to say.

[Des-Bal]

So, by that same token, you wouldn't be comfortable with a black person telling you that calling them a "nigger" is a slur, either, right? Or a gay person telling you that calling them a "faggot" is also a slur, right?

Words and their meanings evolve. Just because "trap" started off referring to androgynous cis males doesn't mean jack shit to the fact that it's used derogatorily toward trans people.

Nigger and faggot are definitely slurs, but not because black and gay people happen to be upset by them. You're talking about a word that's not typically applied to transgender people and whose meaning is actually eroded by application to transgender people.

[Drongonia]

Like I said, if someone doesn't want me to call them a trap, I'll oblige. But McFreedom™ dictates that there shouldn't be a blanket "this is a slur and you shouldn't say it" policy regarding the term.

If you are incapable of respecting trans-gendered people on a simple request, why should they bother even considering interacting with you, let alone listening to anything you have to say.

I'm not incapable. In the text you quoted I said if they asked me to not call them a trap I would respect it. It's almost like you're replying just to say something. It's akin to some sort of mental gymnastics.

[Torrocca]

The word's not a slur to you. Similarly to how "nigger" isn't a slur to white people or "faggot" isn't a slur to heterosexual people. Just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean jack fucking shit; trans people have literally been killed because of this shitty fucking notion that we're trying to "trap" people into having sex with somebody of a gender they wouldn't have sex with.

Somebody already made the n-word argument and honestly it was kind of funny. They stopped responding after one thing I said. It's a weak argument as there are plenty of people who like to be called traps, but I've yet to meet a single black person who likes to be called a Nigger (hard r) or a gay person who likes being called a faggot.

Citing r/Traps again, ever seen it? It's a large community of transfolks who take pride in the thought of being traps and are happy with it. Is there a similar r/Niggers or r/Faggots sub? Doubt it. I only chose that because it's the easiest thing that came to mind, but regardless that's gotta be one of the weakest points out there.

TIL'd because some trans people like to be called traps that that suddenly means the vast majority of the community is perfectly fine with it, which is totally why basically every trans person on this thread is telling you that it's a slur for trans people

10/10

[Des-Bal]

If you are incapable of respecting trans-gendered people on a simple request, why should they bother even considering interacting with you, let alone listening to anything you have to say.

If a person insists you accede to their demands about your expression to be worthy of being listened to or interacted with then on principles you should not concern yourself with their feelings.

[The Rich Port]

The word's not a slur to you. Similarly to how "nigger" isn't a slur to white people or "faggot" isn't a slur to heterosexual people. Just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean jack fucking shit; trans people have literally been killed because of this shitty fucking notion that we're trying to "trap" people into having sex with somebody of a gender they wouldn't have sex with.

Somebody already made the n-word argument and honestly it was kind of funny. They stopped responding after one thing I said. It's a weak argument as there are plenty of people who like to be called traps, but I've yet to meet a single black person who likes to be called a Nigger (hard r) or a gay person who likes being called a faggot.

Citing r/Traps again, ever seen it? It's a large community of transfolks who take pride in the thought of being traps and are happy with it. Is there a similar r/Niggers or r/Faggots sub? Doubt it. I only chose that because it's the easiest thing that came to mind, but regardless that's gotta be one of the weakest points out there.

We don't really care about people that aren't on this forum. It proves nothing about the wider trans-gendered or crossdressing community.

Also, probably because that's not allowed under Reddit's guidelines. Is Reddit now the authority on what is a slur because of that? Of course not.

It doesn't make the fact some people don't like being called "trap" not exist.

Maybe find better friends.

[Drongonia]

Somebody already made the n-word argument and honestly it was kind of funny. They stopped responding after one thing I said. It's a weak argument as there are plenty of people who like to be called traps, but I've yet to meet a single black person who likes to be called a Nigger (hard r) or a gay person who likes being called a faggot.

Citing r/Traps again, ever seen it? It's a large community of transfolks who take pride in the thought of being traps and are happy with it. Is there a similar r/Niggers or r/Faggots sub? Doubt it. I only chose that because it's the easiest thing that came to mind, but regardless that's gotta be one of the weakest points out there.

TIL'd because some trans people like to be called traps that that suddenly means the vast majority of the community is perfectly fine with it, which is totally why basically every trans person on this thread is telling you that it's a slur for trans people

10/10

See there you are again making assumptions. I never said the vast majority of trans people think it's okay. You, and you alone, have been the only one talking about majorities, "us" "what we think" "how we feel" and other some-such nuances.

[Des-Bal]

TIL'd because some trans people like to be called traps that that suddenly means the vast majority of the community is perfectly fine with it, which is totally why basically every trans person on this thread is telling you that it's a slur for trans people

10/10

You just dismissed the views of a group of people as evidence then used a smaller group as evidence to the contrary.

[Torrocca]

So, by that same token, you wouldn't be comfortable with a black person telling you that calling them a "nigger" is a slur, either, right? Or a gay person telling you that calling them a "faggot" is also a slur, right?

Words and their meanings evolve. Just because "trap" started off referring to androgynous cis males doesn't mean jack shit to the fact that it's used derogatorily toward trans people.

Nigger and faggot are definitely slurs, but not because black and gay people happen to be upset by them. You're talking about a word that's not typically applied to transgender people and whose meaning is actually eroded by application to transgender people.

Except that "trap" most definitely is typically applied to trans people nowadays. Like I said, words and their meanings fucking evolve, chief. That it started off in reference to androgynous cis males is irrelevant (though shitty for different reasons) when it's used frequently to refer to trans people nowadays.

[Novus America]

But we have yet to show reasonable person would be set off into a murderous rage.

That would involve identifying someone who murdered a transgender person as reasonable and I don't see that as a fruitful discussion.

That and the fact it is clearly grossly abused are reasons we should not allow it.
Which some states have already done.

[The Rich Port]

If you are incapable of respecting trans-gendered people on a simple request, why should they bother even considering interacting with you, let alone listening to anything you have to say.

I'm not incapable. In the text you quoted I said if they asked me to not call them a trap I would respect it. It's almost like you're replying just to say something. It's akin to some sort of mental gymnastics.

The mental gymnastics are you continuing to argue the point when faced with the reality that not every trans person thinks alike.

Some like it, some don't. You're the one who posits it as "policing". It's not policing, it's asking you to be a decent human being.

[Drongonia]

I'm not incapable. In the text you quoted I said if they asked me to not call them a trap I would respect it. It's almost like you're replying just to say something. It's akin to some sort of mental gymnastics.

The mental gymnastics are you continuing to argue the point when faced with the reality that not every trans person thinks alike.

Some like it, some don't. You're the one who posits it as "policing". It's not policing, it's asking you to be a decent human being.

I literally agreed that not every trans person thinks alike. I'm beginning to think you're not reading what I've said. I said (for the fourth time at least now) that if a trans person wants to be called a trap, great. If they don't, great too. I'm making the point that it shouldn't be up to a few people to speak for a massive worldwide group.

And yet I'm somehow arguing that every trans person thinks alike???

[Torrocca]

TIL'd because some trans people like to be called traps that that suddenly means the vast majority of the community is perfectly fine with it, which is totally why basically every trans person on this thread is telling you that it's a slur for trans people

10/10

See there you are again making assumptions. I never said the vast majority of trans people think it's okay. You, and you alone, have been the only one talking about majorities, "us" "what we think" "how we feel" and other some-such nuances.

Literally almost every trans person who posts in this thread has been telling you lot that trap's a slur, lmao.

TIL'd because some trans people like to be called traps that that suddenly means the vast majority of the community is perfectly fine with it, which is totally why basically every trans person on this thread is telling you that it's a slur for trans people

10/10

You just dismissed the views of a group of people as evidence then used a smaller group as evidence to the contrary.

... It's not just here that trans people will tell you trap's a slur. There's literally even a bunch of other subreddits trans people use (like r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns) where trap's recognized as a slur.

[Des-Bal]

Except that "trap" most definitely is typically applied to trans people nowadays. Like I said, words and their meanings fucking evolve, chief. That it started off in reference to androgynous cis males is irrelevant (though shitty for different reasons) when it's used frequently to refer to trans people nowadays.

Source for who it's principally targeted at? If it started about cisgender men and you can't show it's not still mostly applied that way then you're calling something a slur even though it's generally not applied to the people it's apparently disparaging.

That and the fact it is clearly grossly abused are reasons we should not allow it.
Which some states have already done.

Abuses can be dealt with by the courts, it's what they're for.

[Des-Bal]

... It's not just here that trans people will tell you trap's a slur. There's literally even a bunch of other subreddits trans people use (like r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns) where trap's recognized as a slur.

Are we counting forums now? Just listing locations where people have different opinions?