TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I've literally never seen this, they tend to be as hostile to antifeminism as any other radical feminist. That is, to say, highly.

I haven't seen TERFs collaborate with anti-feminism explicitly, but I have seen TERFs and conservatives collaborate against trans people. In fact, in the comments of this one TERF YouTube video, one of the comments said "TERF alt-right allience when?" To which the poster of the video replied "right here, right now."

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

You'll have to actually prove that anti-feminists are, by and large, opposed to trans rights, instead of just pointing at the conservative christians. Most anti-feminists I've met tend to be rather in favor of trans rights, or at the worst, neutral.

Nominally. However, a significant number seem to be quite blasé about misgendering and I've seen some memes about traps and homosexuality, which is a double whammy for transphobia and homophobia.

Online alt-feminism does have a misgendering problem, I'll grant you that. But you can't read much into a person's beliefs based on jokes.

[Cekoviu]

Ah I see, I'm not that familiar, more with French, as far Romance languages go, there is no pronoun drop feature there. Italian also has that too.

I can think of a few sentence constructions in French without pronouns, but they’re quite limited in application and somewhat unnatural. As for other languages, Portuguese and Catalan do it as well. Japanese, I believe does too.

There aren't even 3rd person pronouns as a valid grammatical construction in Japanese iirc.

Nominally. However, a significant number seem to be quite blasé about misgendering and I've seen some memes about traps and homosexuality, which is a double whammy for transphobia and homophobia.

Online alt-feminism does have a misgendering problem, I'll grant you that. But you can't read much into a person's beliefs based on jokes.

You kind of can, tbh.

[Cekoviu]

I've literally never seen this, they tend to be as hostile to antifeminism as any other radical feminist. That is, to say, highly.

I haven't seen TERFs collaborate with anti-feminism explicitly, but I have seen TERFs and conservatives collaborate against trans people. In fact, in the comments of this one TERF YouTube video, one of the comments said "TERF alt-right allience when?" To which the poster of the video replied "right here, right now."

Ugh. Vomit.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I can think of a few sentence constructions in French without pronouns, but they’re quite limited in application and somewhat unnatural. As for other languages, Portuguese and Catalan do it as well. Japanese, I believe does too.

There aren't even 3rd person pronouns as a valid grammatical construction in Japanese iirc.

Online alt-feminism does have a misgendering problem, I'll grant you that. But you can't read much into a person's beliefs based on jokes.

You kind of can, tbh.

In some situations you can, but it's not wise to call someone a transphobe on no evidence other than them saying "ey, are traps gay?"

[Cekoviu]

There aren't even 3rd person pronouns as a valid grammatical construction in Japanese iirc.

You kind of can, tbh.

In some situations you can, but it's not wise to call someone a transphobe on no evidence other than them saying "ey, are traps gay?"

They're using a slur and implicitly misgendering, so yeah, I think that's a good litmus test for transphobia.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

In some situations you can, but it's not wise to call someone a transphobe on no evidence other than them saying "ey, are traps gay?"

They're using a slur and implicitly misgendering, so yeah, I think that's a good litmus test for transphobia.

It's not inherently a slur, and not misgendering unless they think the answer is an unconditional yes.

[Grenartia]

Saying that inclusionists "gatekeep" terfs and truscum isn't really accurate, they gatekeep gender and removing trans rights and feminism away from them is self-defence. TERFs collaborate with anti-feminists all the time, and truscum don't really help the trans community, but make other trans people feel worse about themselves. They're welcome to stay but they have to know feminism includes trans people, especially trans women, and that being trans is not a medical condition that requires a high standard of dysphoria.

It seems that I am repeating myself with that, because how else can I say it?

But, all of my personal experiences with TERFs and truscum have left me feeling worse about myself and reinforcing any imposter syndrome I might have. It's like how you have to not tolerate intolerance to build an inclusive community.

Precisely this. And this is the fundamental harm of 'transmedicalism', even to those of us with dysphoria.

Ah, yes, so "trendy", I decided to live in fear of getting outted to my family for the last 7 fucking years. All for the...trend...?

Remind me how this stupid bullshit is supposed to work? What's the alleged payoff here?

I put off questioning my gender because I was confused and afraid. I felt I wasn't dysphoric enough and got the impression that being trans was a bad thing.

Yes, there is so much transphobia, I still butt heads with my parents over getting misgendered even though they are nominally accepting and learning, it gets a bit tiring to be teaching people who act like little children about gender, and I'm a recent college graduate looking for a full time job, and I am statistically more likely to be unemployed than a cis equivalent.

Also, trans people still get harassed and murdered especially black trans women like Muhlaysia Booker in Texas.

Fucking shame about her. When will people stop killing us?

Well, I asked for a new poll idea a few days ago, but got no response, so you're the clear winner here.

I don't think I could narrow down the list to 10 options, so everyone feel free to make suggestions.

Personally, I am partial to Publick Universal Friend, but if they don't make the cut, as long as you include Sylvia Riviera, I'll be content.

I'm probably going to have to do a series of polls, featuring people from different time periods.

Yes, there is so much transphobia, I still butt heads with my parents over getting misgendered even though they are nominally accepting and learning, it gets a bit tiring to be teaching people who act like little children about gender, and I'm a recent college graduate looking for a full time job, and I am statistically more likely to be unemployed than a cis equivalent.

Also, trans people still get harassed and murdered especially black trans women like Muhlaysia Booker in Texas.

^ This. Also, I can relate to the employment part.

I'm not even able to live on my own due to my shitty job as is, so I'm honestly more on the "Fuck it" front. If I get mistreated or fired, I'll find a lawyer who's willing to sue pro-bono.

Thank you, for insulting several people here, including myself, with your nonsensical generalizations.

What can I say except, you're welcome!

Well, one good turn deserves another, so what can I say, except "Fucking typical cis person."

I can't even comprehend that second to last sentence, and I honestly wouldn't pay $0.35 for that post as a whole, much less $3.50

You've comprehended sentences much worse than what I wrote.

Apparently not.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

For the record, I can't see transmeds (to use the polite term) as anything other than quislings for TERFs.

It's almost impossible to be more wrong than you are at this precise moment in time. Legends will be told of this moment thousands of years from now, about the time one single person on one tiny corner of the Internet on one single thread in one post managed to be inhumanly wrong, and the questions of "how" and "why" will be asked by philosophers and scientists alike for eternity.
Feel proud, you just made history with how wrong you are.

...I'm being overly dramatic here, but the point is, you managed to find the polar opposite of the correct answer, which is staggering to say the least.

How are they not backstabbing sellouts against the rest of us?

That is precisely how it is used.

Nope.

Alright, cisboy who's never been called one.

Because as the name fucking implies, it tells the audience that being trans is a "trend", and reduces our existence to little more than a fad like pet rocks. This should be obvious to you.

Since it's being used to refer to people who allegedly act as if it already is such a thing...

Fixed that for you.

As a self-professed "libertarian", would you say intrusive government spying programs are "necessary actions" to "ensure order, stability, and consistency"? Yes or no only.

Nice strawman. And I refuse to answer with only either "yes" or "no" just because you demand that I do.

Not really a strawman. The arguments used in defense of both are exactly the same. You refuse to answer at all, it seems.

What the fuck are you even on about here?

It should be obvious to you.

By all means, """enlighten""" me.

No, we don't.

Well, see, you're of a different clique. You're not from the original clique (ie basically a cult around this one person) or any of its relative cliques, so it's likely you only see it as a "derogatory" term directed against you.

That sounds like a claim you have to prove.

Finally, you got something right.

You say "finally" as if I've been wrong frequently, instead of only partially incorrect sometimes.

Fun fact, the two words were coined as corruptions of "too cute" and "true scum", so it's obvious which one is the worse one to use to refer to someone else.

Only if you're blatantly ignoring the derogatory attitude with which "tucute" has been applied against us. "True scum" on the other hand, derives from their own term "true transsexual", used to gatekeep the rest of us.

Singular they has been around for a while. I'd just let people pick their own pronouns, Xe isn't doing any harm, nor hir, shi, or ze. Like I said, it's more essential to have them in other languages like German or French.

They can I suppose, I'll just have a shit time remembering them and probably default to singular "they" anyway. Especially if I rarely interact with the person. I barely remember names.

To be fair, most people I've encountered that use neopronouns also accept they/them.

TERFs collaborate with anti-feminists all the time

I've literally never seen this, they tend to be as hostile to antifeminism as any other radical feminist. That is, to say, highly.

They've been well-documented as teaming up with groups like the Heritage Foundation, the Pacific "Justice" Institute, and other hardcore conservative organizations that have sought to suppress trans equality. Then, when those orgs also go on to do things like ban abortion, they act all shocked, and then blame it on us (as happened recently with Georgia and Alabama). When trans people, and even other cis feminists call them out on this gaslighting and other bullshit, they typically default to one of their tried and true talking points, like "YOU'RE ERASING/ATTACKING LESBIANS", no matter how much of a non-sequitur it is in context.

Its kind of like the Scorpion and the Frog, except the frog likes when the scorpion stings other frogs, so it keeps helping it.

All pronouns are imaginary.

No, they aren't. That's like saying the word "sky" or "two" is imaginary... they're verbal representions of things in reality.

That...only proves that they're imaginary. You're really bad at this, fam.

I have a question that I would like some insight on, regarding the identity of one of my sister's friends, that we had to take in and help a bit for a period of time.

They are a female-to-male trans, in identity only since they do not take hormones or have received surgery. For sake of anonymity, we'll call him "Alex."

Alex was a good friend of my sister, however, usually more of a third wheel to my sister and her girlfriend (both bi), I've only seen my sister and Alex hang out together on their own only like, once. Since both my sister and her gf were quite pro-lgbt (before they came out as bi), and later came out as Bi when they entered a relationship, I have no doubt they may have had some influence on Alex for their change of identity.

Now, fast forward, sister and her gf go off to college, both to study to become 2D animators in separate cities. Alex, being, persay, dealt a bad hand in life in family income terms, as well as barely passing high school, he's stuck in our town with us. He's only had a few minor jobs, no marketable skills as of that time, and no plan for college or vocational school. (he said once she wanted to study animation too, but me and my mom politely nudged her towards the idea that she'd need to find a way to become financially stable first). Being lonely, and in such a situation, they were diagnosed with depression and put on anxiety medicine and antidepressants. It was during a summer visit from the two after Alex was put on antidepressants where Alex came out, saying that they wanted to be referred to as a male now, as well as taking a masculine name, cutting their hair shorter, and wearing more masculine clothing.

Now, at this time, my young-highschooler mind just shrugged it off because I was drinking the anti-feminist kool-aid to the point where I threw my rationality away so I can fit in with assholes on the internet. So I just shrugged it off and equated it to following "trends" or "dumb feminist shit". I've since then gone past those heinous views, and try to keep a rational and scientific outlook on things I see or experience.

Now, here comes to the thing I'm looking into some insight for. For a while we had to take in Alex since they had a fight with their family and needed a place to stay. Helped them look for jobs and opportunities for vocational training, as well as giving them a bed to sleep in, but me and my mother had an...interesting talk, about their identity. We were thinking, that, since they only used male pronouns, and didn't seek any kind of medical change to their appearance or biology to become a male, that such identity is the result of circumstances around her.

Given that they had a bad hand dealt in life, had some family problems, was a bit of a third wheel to my sister and her gf, as well as depression and nowhere to go in life as of now, would it be reasonable to think that wanting to be called male would be a result of trying to achieve greater sympathy for their conditions (depressed, low income, and trans might evoke a different response than just the former two) and fit in better with those around her?

No, it would not be reasonable to think that.

A distraction from her current problems?

No.

Actual gender dysphoria?

Possibly, but it could also be the case that he is trans and doesn't have dysphoria.

Should I even be questioning it, or just use their preferred pronoun and not question it because it doesn't matter that much? (They're usually cool if you accidently call them the wrong thing, so it's not much a problem to them either)

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't question it, but if you must, you should politely ask Alex to settle your confusion.

TLDR: Friend of my sister has depression and a bad position in life. Now refers to themself as male, but does not seek biological change. I'm curious and would like some insight into it from people who understand it better.

To give a deeper look into why Alex might not be transitioning, without knowing him or his situation, but as a trans person who has been out to my friends (socially, and for over 7 years at this point), there's a number of possible reasons.

In my case, I live with very restrictive family members who would probably kick me out on the street if I started transition. There's also the fact that transition for trans guys isn't really as fully-developed as transition for trans girls, so there's not really "testosterone pills" (I promise you, those "male enhancement" pills aren't good for this purpose, even if they work). If Alex is terrified of needles, that might be a problem (the only alternative to injecting T is using gels, which are several times more expensive than injection, IIRC). Also, he might not be dysphoric, which is valid, and he shouldn't have to spend money on medically unnecessary treatments if that is the case. He might also not be comfortable enough with some of the side-effects and risks (for injections, especially, 'roid-rage' can be a thing) to feel comfortable taking T.

Because misgendering just seems like pedantic bullshit to your average Joe. The fact that he does it doesn't mean he wishes ill on trans people.

Of course it seems like it. That doesn't make it okay, and it does mean that they're not really that supportive if they can pick and choose when to "indulge" trans people.

Precisely this.

I've literally never seen this, they tend to be as hostile to antifeminism as any other radical feminist. That is, to say, highly.

I haven't seen TERFs collaborate with anti-feminism explicitly, but I have seen TERFs and conservatives collaborate against trans people. In fact, in the comments of this one TERF YouTube video, one of the comments said "TERF alt-right allience when?" To which the poster of the video replied "right here, right now."

I mean, the Venn diagram of conservativism and anti-feminism might as well just be a circle. Maybe there's some slivers on the outside, but I've yet to encounter an anti-feminist that wasn't conservative, and I've yet to encounter a conservative that wasn't anti-feminist.

[Proctopeo]

You'll have to actually prove that anti-feminists are, by and large, opposed to trans rights, instead of just pointing at the conservative christians. Most anti-feminists I've met tend to be rather in favor of trans rights, or at the worst, neutral.

Nominally. However, a significant number seem to be quite blasé about misgendering and I've seen some memes about traps and homosexuality, which is a double whammy for transphobia and homophobia.

It's neither lmfao

In some situations you can, but it's not wise to call someone a transphobe on no evidence other than them saying "ey, are traps gay?"

They're using a slur and implicitly misgendering, so yeah, I think that's a good litmus test for transphobia.

again, neither
also "trap is a slur" is such a joke

---

Gren, I'd respond, but get your formatting in check and resolve how you somehow duplicated your post within your post. You said a lot of shit that I do want to respond to, I just don't want to have to play janitor just to do it.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Nominally. However, a significant number seem to be quite blasé about misgendering and I've seen some memes about traps and homosexuality, which is a double whammy for transphobia and homophobia.

It's neither lmfao

They're using a slur and implicitly misgendering, so yeah, I think that's a good litmus test for transphobia.

again, neither
also "trap is a slur" is such a joke

---

Gren, I'd respond, but get your formatting in check and resolve how you somehow duplicated your post within your post. You said a lot of shit that I do want to respond to, I just don't want to have to play janitor just to do it.

‘Trap’ actually is a slur, though. Trans people have identified it as such. You identify a complex person only by what emotions they bring about in another person, and calling them deceitful at that. That’s a pretty big slur.

[Proctopeo]

It's neither lmfao


again, neither
also "trap is a slur" is such a joke

---

Gren, I'd respond, but get your formatting in check and resolve how you somehow duplicated your post within your post. You said a lot of shit that I do want to respond to, I just don't want to have to play janitor just to do it.

‘Trap’ actually is a slur, though. Trans people have identified it as such. You identify a complex person only by what emotions they bring about in another person, and calling them deceitful at that. That’s a pretty big slur.

Given that it's used almost exclusively in reference to fictional characters, or as a term of self-identification by real people, calling it a "slur" is a stretch.
At worst it's no worse than calling a Brit a "limey" or a Frenchman a "frog". Offensive on a bad day, perhaps, but ultimately harmless, despite what a few loons might try to convince you otherwise.

[Grenartia]

Nominally. However, a significant number seem to be quite blasé about misgendering and I've seen some memes about traps and homosexuality, which is a double whammy for transphobia and homophobia.

It's neither lmfao

They're using a slur and implicitly misgendering, so yeah, I think that's a good litmus test for transphobia.

again, neither
also "trap is a slur" is such a joke

---

Gren, I'd respond, but get your formatting in check and resolve how you somehow duplicated your post within your post. You said a lot of shit that I do want to respond to, I just don't want to have to play janitor just to do it.

Copypasted twice, apparently.

Also, trap is a slur, since it is a derogatory term that feeds into the transphobic myth that trans women "trap"/"trick"/"deceive" cishet men. Its like calling Jewish people "International financiers".

[Ifreann]

‘Trap’ actually is a slur, though. Trans people have identified it as such. You identify a complex person only by what emotions they bring about in another person, and calling them deceitful at that. That’s a pretty big slur.

Given that it's used almost exclusively in reference to fictional characters, or as a term of self-identification by real people, calling it a "slur" is a stretch.
At worst it's no worse than calling a Brit a "limey" or a Frenchman a "frog". Offensive on a bad day, perhaps, but ultimately harmless, despite what a few loons might try to convince you otherwise.

Britons are called limeys because they Royal Navy issued limes to fight scurvy among the sailors.
The French are called frogs because frogs legs are famously part of French cuisine.
Trans women, real and fictional, are called traps because of the idea that they are tricking straight men into becoming gay, and idea which has lead to men killing trans women.

Yep, just harmless nicknames.

[Auzkhia]

It's neither lmfao


again, neither
also "trap is a slur" is such a joke

---

Gren, I'd respond, but get your formatting in check and resolve how you somehow duplicated your post within your post. You said a lot of shit that I do want to respond to, I just don't want to have to play janitor just to do it.

Copypasted twice, apparently.

Also, trap is a slur, since it is a derogatory term that feeds into the transphobic myth that trans women "trap"/"trick"/"deceive" cishet men. Its like calling Jewish people "International financiers".

Trap reflects a mentality that gets trans women murdered. A lot of violence against trans people, especially transmisogynistic violence is that they're men trying to "entrap" men into becoming gay. It hinges on the mindset that trans women aren't women but men, and that they are somehow interested in turning straight men gay with their feminine penis, because it's always about the penis. Why is it always the penis? *takes a drag from a cigar*

Also, leave it to a cis person to tell me what is and isn't transphobic.

[Ifreann]

Copypasted twice, apparently.

Also, trap is a slur, since it is a derogatory term that feeds into the transphobic myth that trans women "trap"/"trick"/"deceive" cishet men. Its like calling Jewish people "International financiers".

Trap reflects a mentality that gets trans women murdered. A lot of violence against trans people, especially transmisogynistic violence is that they're men trying to "entrap" men into becoming gay. It hinges on the mindset that trans women aren't women but men, and that they are somehow interested in turning straight men gay with their feminine penis, because it's always about the penis. Why is it always the penis? *takes a drag from a cigar*

Also, leave it to a cis person to tell me what is and isn't transphobic.

I mean, it's "trap" specifically because of the Admiral Ackbar "It's a trap!" image.

[Des-Bal]

Copypasted twice, apparently.

Also, trap is a slur, since it is a derogatory term that feeds into the transphobic myth that trans women "trap"/"trick"/"deceive" cishet men. Its like calling Jewish people "International financiers".

Well first of all trap is typically applied to men who crossdress convincingly or are especially feminine not transgender women. I think Bridget of Guilty Gear is probably the best example and Bridget despite being raised as a girl was not transgender. The "trap" is "that lady is in fact a dude."

Second of all you're conflating myth with stereotype. Transgender women are in fact murdered because of the perception that they'll trick cishet men and they're also murder for tricking cishet men. This is a thing that happens

[Arcturus Novus]

Copypasted twice, apparently.

Also, trap is a slur, since it is a derogatory term that feeds into the transphobic myth that trans women "trap"/"trick"/"deceive" cishet men. Its like calling Jewish people "International financiers".

Well first of all trap is typically applied to men who crossdress convincingly or are especially feminine not transgender women. I think Bridget of Guilty Gear is probably the best example and Bridget despite being raised as a girl was not transgender. The "trap" is "that lady is in fact a dude."

Second of all you're conflating myth with stereotype. Transgender women are in fact murdered because of the perception that they'll trick cishet men and they're also murder for tricking cishet men. This is a thing that happens

Please show the group evidence that trans women trick cihet men to such a degree that it warrants murder.

[Des-Bal]

Please show the group evidence that trans women trick cihet men to such a degree that it warrants murder.

You're asking for evidence to support claims I never made and that's neglecting that "murder" by it's nature is not warranted and actually ceases to be murder when it is. Transgender women have deceived men, we know this and it's what typically precedes the trans panic defense being used. You can't simultaneously argue the trans panic defense is raised entirely too much and that transgender women don't ever trick men.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Please show the group evidence that trans women trick cihet men to such a degree that it warrants murder.

You're asking for evidence to support claims I never made and that's neglecting that "murder" by it's nature is not warranted and actually ceases to be murder when it is. Transgender women have deceived men, we know this and it's what typically precedes the trans panic defense being used. You can't simultaneously argue the trans panic defense is raised entirely too much and that transgender women don't ever trick men.

Some transwomen do indeed trick men, and that is scummy. But you agree that that's no excuse for killing the woman, right?

[Des-Bal]

Some transwomen do indeed trick men, and that is scummy. But you agree that that's no excuse for killing the woman, right?

No, it's bog-standard heat of passion murder and it should be prosecuted as such.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Some transwomen do indeed trick men, and that is scummy. But you agree that that's no excuse for killing the woman, right?

No, it's bog-standard heat of passion murder and it should be prosecuted as such.

Heat of passion murder is still murder, and should be punished as much as normal murder.

[Grenartia]

Well first of all trap is typically applied to men who crossdress convincingly or are especially feminine not transgender women. I think Bridget of Guilty Gear is probably the best example and Bridget despite being raised as a girl was not transgender. The "trap" is "that lady is in fact a dude."

Second of all you're conflating myth with stereotype. Transgender women are in fact murdered because of the perception that they'll trick cishet men and they're also murder for tricking cishet men. This is a thing that happens

Please show the group evidence that trans women trick cihet men to such a degree that it warrants murder.

Besides, the "its not a myth, its a stereotype!" argument doesn't make it any better.

[Des-Bal]

Heat of passion murder is still murder, and should be punished as much as normal murder.

Well no, not really. A murder committed in the heat of passion without a period for cooling off lacks an element of premeditation and it's typically sentenced differently. Walking in on your wife in bed with someone else and shooting her is murder but walking in on your wife, leaving, and shooting her next week is worse.

[Des-Bal]

Besides, the "its not a myth, its a stereotype!" argument doesn't make it any better.

It puts it in the same league as the other stereotypes you were offering a pass, note that the French do not all eat frogs.

[Cekoviu]

Nominally. However, a significant number seem to be quite blasé about misgendering and I've seen some memes about traps and homosexuality, which is a double whammy for transphobia and homophobia.

It's neither lmfao

They're using a slur and implicitly misgendering, so yeah, I think that's a good litmus test for transphobia.

again, neither
also "trap is a slur" is such a joke

---

Gren, I'd respond, but get your formatting in check and resolve how you somehow duplicated your post within your post. You said a lot of shit that I do want to respond to, I just don't want to have to play janitor just to do it.

Oh, I forgot that cis people got to define what is or isn't offensive to trans people. My bad.