TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Cappuccina]

Feminism doesn't "fight for" anyone, not even women.

Ok then, what is non-toxic masculinity? How can there be either toxic or non-toxic masculinity if "gender is a social construct" and doesn't really exist?

Gender isn’t a social construct. Gender expression is. Toxic masculinity is the defensiveness men feel when confronted with the possibility of becoming “the other”. Examples of its manifestation include the use of “queer” as an insult, the taboo associated with male crossdressing, and the expectation for men to sleep around. There are men who do not express masculinity in a toxic way, but society pressures them to.

That's not toxic, it's masculinity. A man doesn't want to be associated with femininity, I wouldn't want to be associated with being manly myself.

I'll press this line of reasoning further then, what is gender? If gender expression is a construct, and hence fake, what is gender?

[Des-Bal]

Gender is indeed a social construct. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It exists as a construct. You are wilfully misunderstanding feminist rhetoric by conflating various different ideas.

Gender is not a social construct. Gender roles might be socially constructed but gender is not. There is a biological basis for gender and if there wasn't there would be no reason for transgender people to be treated differently or taken more seriously than weaboos, wiggers, or otherkin. There is a reason that transgender people and their problems need to be taken more seriously than a group of people who are just looking to transcend some cultural barriers and it's the same reason there's such a high incidence of phantom penises and breasts in the transgender population- a biological basis for gender.

[Bienenhalde]

More than two-thirds of LGBT people in the UK have been sexually harassed at work, a survey suggests.

Of 1,151 polled by the Trades Union Congress, 68% said they had experienced harassment, with 42% reporting they had received unwanted comments about their sex life from a colleague.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48297100

I thought we had started to turn a corner regarding this kind of thing, I really did, but I guess not.

Absolutely horrible. What makes people think it is acceptable to talk about such things in polite company, particularly at work? Scandalous!

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Lmao why would any man get worried about becoming a woman, that sounds dope...

If you live in a society where being a woman is seen as being weak or fragile, and being a man is seen as a sign of strength and might, it could be seen as confusing and even threatening for a person who is perceived to be a person to have the gender expression of a woman. For such a individual, being female is being the other. And therefore, they hate it.

I understand that. It's just that it's a poorly designed term and many feminists seem to use it very liberally to the point of self parody. Like "why The Avengers is toxic masculinity" and shit like that.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If you live in a society where being a woman is seen as being weak or fragile, and being a man is seen as a sign of strength and might, it could be seen as confusing and even threatening for a person who is perceived to be a person to have the gender expression of a woman. For such a individual, being female is being the other. And therefore, they hate it.

I understand that. It's just that it's a poorly designed term and many feminists seem to use it very liberally to the point of self parody. Like "why The Avengers is toxic masculinity" and shit like that.

No argument there. Yes. Some feminists do use it to the point of making me, a feminist too, chuckle.

Let’s also be clear in that some feminists other-ize trans women to ridiculous heights. Seeing them as invaders of a woman’s space and identity. Feminism is not innocent at all when it comes to hating and marginalizing trans women.

[Cappuccina]

I understand that. It's just that it's a poorly designed term and many feminists seem to use it very liberally to the point of self parody. Like "why The Avengers is toxic masculinity" and shit like that.

No argument there. Yes. Some feminists do use it to the point of making me, a feminist too, chuckle.

Let’s also be clear in that some feminists other-ize trans women to ridiculous heights. Seeing them as invaders of a woman’s space and identity. Feminism is not innocent at all when it comes to hating and marginalizing trans women.

Yup, TERFs....ugh.

I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm anti-feminist, but I'm certainly critical of its modern popular incarnation. I'd say my views are similar to those of "SWERFs".

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

No argument there. Yes. Some feminists do use it to the point of making me, a feminist too, chuckle.

Let’s also be clear in that some feminists other-ize trans women to ridiculous heights. Seeing them as invaders of a woman’s space and identity. Feminism is not innocent at all when it comes to hating and marginalizing trans women.

Yeah. I don't get why TERFs are so concerned with "women's spaces." If you ask me, gendered spaces should be minimized. Integration is a good thing, maybe even in bathrooms.

I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm anti-feminist, but I'm certainly critical of its modern popular incarnation. I'd say my views are similar to those of "SWERFs".

What's wrong with sex workers?

[Cappuccina]

No argument there. Yes. Some feminists do use it to the point of making me, a feminist too, chuckle.

Let’s also be clear in that some feminists other-ize trans women to ridiculous heights. Seeing them as invaders of a woman’s space and identity. Feminism is not innocent at all when it comes to hating and marginalizing trans women.

Yeah. I don't get why TERFs are so concerned with "women's spaces." If you ask me, gendered spaces should be minimized. Integration is a good thing, maybe even in bathrooms.

I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm anti-feminist, but I'm certainly critical of its modern popular incarnation. I'd say my views are similar to those of "SWERFs".

What's wrong with sex workers?

What isn't wrong with sex workers?

[Des-Bal]

What isn't wrong with sex workers?

Well there's the fact that both sex and work are legal and fine.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Yeah. I don't get why TERFs are so concerned with "women's spaces." If you ask me, gendered spaces should be minimized. Integration is a good thing, maybe even in bathrooms.


What's wrong with sex workers?

What isn't wrong with sex workers?

The fact they're not hurting anybody.

[The New California Republic]

I thought we had started to turn a corner regarding this kind of thing, I really did, but I guess not.

Absolutely horrible. What makes people think it is acceptable to talk about such things in polite company, particularly at work? Scandalous!

Nice to see that you can make a joke about sexual harassment...

[Bienenhalde]

Absolutely horrible. What makes people think it is acceptable to talk about such things in polite company, particularly at work? Scandalous!

Nice to see that you can make a joke about sexual harassment...

What makes you think I was joking? That was a hundred percent serious. It is important that we teach people properly so they know that this sort of thing is NOT OKAY!!!

[Cappuccina]

What isn't wrong with sex workers?

The fact they're not hurting anybody.

Perhaps not pummelling people, no, but sexwork is a social ill that has associated physical and mental detriment to women and people in general.

[Des-Bal]

Perhaps not pummelling people, no, but sexwork is a social ill that has associated physical and mental detriment to women and people in general.

A lot of things are terrible, restraining people's ability to make choices isn't the correct approach.

[The New California Republic]

Nice to see that you can make a joke about sexual harassment...

That was a hundred percent serious. It is important that we teach people properly so they know that this sort of thing is NOT OKAY!!!

I think we both know that isn't true. The big hint was your exaggerated use of the word "scandalous" at the end.

[Cappuccina]

Perhaps not pummelling people, no, but sexwork is a social ill that has associated physical and mental detriment to women and people in general.

A lot of things are terrible, restraining people's ability to make choices isn't the correct approach.

Making it difficult for people to perpetuate a socially destructive industry is the correct approach.

[Bienenhalde]

That was a hundred percent serious. It is important that we teach people properly so they know that this sort of thing is NOT OKAY!!!

I think we both know that isn't true. The big hint was your exaggerated use of the word "scandalous" at the end.

It was a sincere expression of strong feelings. I am not sure why you are trying slander me with this outrageous accusation.

[Ifreann]

In shit Canada news: SRS appointments in Ontario, both consultations and surgeries, are being cancelled because surgeons have met their quotas and aren't being allowed to perform any more for possibly years. Supposedly this is a meant to lower the cost of OHIP, the government health insurance plan for Ontario.


What happened to you, Canada? You used to be cool.

[Communist Zombie Horde]

How is it transphobic to say their are two geneders?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

No argument there. Yes. Some feminists do use it to the point of making me, a feminist too, chuckle.

Let’s also be clear in that some feminists other-ize trans women to ridiculous heights. Seeing them as invaders of a woman’s space and identity. Feminism is not innocent at all when it comes to hating and marginalizing trans women.

Yup, TERFs....ugh.

I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm anti-feminist, but I'm certainly critical of its modern popular incarnation. I'd say my views are similar to those of "SWERFs".

I have no problem with sex workers. If that’s what they want to do, more power to them. What I’d like is for them to have protections under law.

[Dumb Ideologies]

The concept of "toxic masculinity" does have some conceptual validity. I have certainly observed men acting obnoxiously towards women, gay people etc. as a way of "confirming" their own masculinity.

The trouble lies partly in the gaping absence of a female conceptual equivalent. Quite clearly there are women who act badly towards men as a result of insecurity about their femininity. Women who sleep around and cheat on their partners because they're insecure in their own self-worth as women because of the messages they've internalised from wider society and, yes, other women.

Politically speaking, those people who make sweeping negative comments about all men being malevolent, in a position of privilege (completely ignoring other forms of disadvantage), or automatically useless because they are men are practising toxic femininity. An overgeneralised fear is converted to hatred and a universalising self-victimhood that casts an entire gender as a homogeneous mass that is somehow inherently deficient. In a lesser form, those women who automatically blame every problem in their professional and personal lives on the patriarchy before engaging in reflexivity to examine potential flaws in their own behaviour and actions are performing toxic femininity. Similarly, the women who are obsessional about "womyn-only spaces" and think that transwomen must be rapists or the product of patriarchal brainwashing? Toxic femininity.

The other problem is the slipperyness of the term and the easy way in which it can be used to dismiss criticism of toxic femininity. It can be deployed against anyone who disagrees with something that a feminist is saying while using the feminist label, roughly along these lines:

1) Feminism is about the equality of women
2) If you disagree with a feminist who is seeking to "educate you" then you must be opposed to female equality
3) Opposition to female equality reflects a sense of entitlement or misogyny

Therefore disagreeing with a feminist can be near-axiomatically manufactured into an accusation of toxic masculinity.

It's the Jekyll and Hyde of terminology - it has a respectable academic face, and a snarling, vicious face that comes out against opponents. I don't know that the term can really be saved given that inherent slipperyness and given that the binary oppressor/oppressed narrative refuses the very possibility of there being a female counterpart to it. How do we keep it caged and how do we bring balance to the conversation?

[Communist Zombie Horde]

The concept of "toxic masculinity" does have some conceptual validity. I have certainly observed men acting obnoxiously towards women, gay people etc. as a way of "confirming" their own masculinity.

The trouble lies partly in the gaping absence of a female conceptual equivalent. Quite clearly there are women who act badly towards men as a result of insecurity about their femininity. Women who sleep around and cheat on their partners because they're insecure in their own self-worth as women because of the messages they've internalised from wider society and, yes, other women.

Politically speaking, those people who make sweeping negative comments about all men being malevolent, in a position of privilege (completely ignoring other forms of disadvantage), or automatically useless because they are men are practising toxic femininity. An overgeneralised fear is converted to hatred and a universalising self-victimhood that casts an entire gender as a homogeneous evil mass. In a lesser form, those women who automatically blame every problem in their professional and personal lives on the patriarchy and refuse to examine the flaws in their own behaviour and actions are performing toxic femininity. Similarly, the women who are obsessional about "womyn-only spaces" and think that transwomen must be rapists or the product of patriarchal brainwashing? Toxic femininity.

The other problem is the slipperyness of the term and the easy way in which it can be used to dismiss criticism of toxic femininity. It can be deployed against anyone who disagrees with something that a feminist is saying while using the feminist label, roughly along these lines:

1) Feminism is about the equality of women
2) If you disagree with a feminist who is seeking to "educate you" then you must be opposed to female equality
3) Opposition to female equality reflects a sense of entitlement or misogyny

Therefore disagreeing with a feminist is near-axiomatically a form of toxic masculinity.

Toxic masculinity is a sexist feminist lie.

[The New California Republic]

I think we both know that isn't true. The big hint was your exaggerated use of the word "scandalous" at the end.

It was a sincere expression of strong feelings. I am not sure why you are trying slander me with this outrageous accusation.

*Pats you on the head*

[Bienenhalde]

The concept of "toxic masculinity" does have some conceptual validity. I have certainly observed men acting obnoxiously towards women, gay people etc. as a way of "confirming" their own masculinity.

The trouble lies partly in the gaping absence of a female conceptual equivalent. Quite clearly there are women who act badly towards men as a result of insecurity about their femininity. Women who sleep around and cheat on their partners because they're insecure in their own self-worth as women because of the messages they've internalised from wider society and, yes, other women.

Politically speaking, those people who make sweeping negative comments about all men being malevolent, in a position of privilege (completely ignoring other forms of disadvantage), or automatically useless because they are men are practising toxic femininity. An overgeneralised fear is converted to hatred and a universalising self-victimhood that casts an entire gender as a homogeneous evil mass. In a lesser form, those women who automatically blame every problem in their professional and personal lives on the patriarchy and refuse to examine the flaws in their own behaviour and actions are performing toxic femininity. Similarly, the women who are obsessional about "womyn-only spaces" and think that transwomen must be rapists or the product of patriarchal brainwashing? Toxic femininity.

The other problem is the slipperyness of the term and the easy way in which it can be used to dismiss criticism of toxic femininity. It can be deployed against anyone who disagrees with something that a feminist is saying while using the feminist label, roughly along these lines:

1) Feminism is about the equality of women
2) If you disagree with a feminist who is seeking to "educate you" then you must be opposed to female equality
3) Opposition to female equality reflects a sense of entitlement or misogyny

Therefore disagreeing with a feminist is near-axiomatically a form of toxic masculinity.

I sort of agree, but I would not necessarily describe the outrageous behavior of certain extreme feminists as "toxic femininity". To me, "femininity" implies mainstream gender stereotypes, which feminists generally reject. Instead of being overly feminine, many feminists shy away from anything particularly feminine and try to imitate male behavior, even when it is not really a good thing and leads to them imitating the toxic masculine behaviors that they hypocritically decry.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The concept of "toxic masculinity" does have some conceptual validity. I have certainly observed men acting obnoxiously towards women, gay people etc. as a way of "confirming" their own masculinity.

The trouble lies partly in the gaping absence of a female conceptual equivalent. Quite clearly there are women who act badly towards men as a result of insecurity about their femininity. Women who sleep around and cheat on their partners because they're insecure in their own self-worth as women because of the messages they've internalised from wider society and, yes, other women.

Politically speaking, those people who make sweeping negative comments about all men being malevolent, in a position of privilege (completely ignoring other forms of disadvantage), or automatically useless because they are men are practising toxic femininity. An overgeneralised fear is converted to hatred and a universalising self-victimhood that casts an entire gender as a homogeneous evil mass. In a lesser form, those women who automatically blame every problem in their professional and personal lives on the patriarchy and refuse to examine the flaws in their own behaviour and actions are performing toxic femininity. Similarly, the women who are obsessional about "womyn-only spaces" and think that transwomen must be rapists or the product of patriarchal brainwashing? Toxic femininity.

The other problem is the slipperyness of the term and the easy way in which it can be used to dismiss criticism of toxic femininity. It can be deployed against anyone who disagrees with something that a feminist is saying while using the feminist label, roughly along these lines:

1) Feminism is about the equality of women
2) If you disagree with a feminist who is seeking to "educate you" then you must be opposed to female equality
3) Opposition to female equality reflects a sense of entitlement or misogyny

Therefore disagreeing with a feminist is near-axiomatically a form of toxic masculinity.

I sort of agree, but I would not necessarily describe the outrageous behavior of certain extreme feminists as "toxic femininity". To me, "femininity" implies mainstream gender stereotypes, which feminists generally reject. Instead of being overly feminine, many feminists shy away from anything particularly feminine and try to imitate male behavior, even when it is not really a good thing and leads to them imitating the toxic masculine behaviors that they hypocritically decry.

What constitute, to you, male behaviors that these ‘non feminine women’ emulate?