TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[The New California Republic]

More than two-thirds of LGBT people in the UK have been sexually harassed at work, a survey suggests.

Of 1,151 polled by the Trades Union Congress, 68% said they had experienced harassment, with 42% reporting they had received unwanted comments about their sex life from a colleague.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48297100

I thought we had started to turn a corner regarding this kind of thing, I really did, but I guess not.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Trans rights

[Auzkhia]

Trans rights

Herp says trans rights!

So for the time being, I am kind of back in the closet again. Took a job in a different part of the country and for now, I'm still trying to gauge how safe/accepting the new environment is. My family supports me, so at home I'm still me, but not being able to be openly transfeminine in public is going to be an adjustment.

Oof, but I had to do a costume change for a job interview right after my first HRT appointment.

Now, I decided to throw caution to the wind and be open, if a potential employer is going to be transphobic, I shouldn't work there. I have no offers yet, but I hope I do.

I dressed kinda fem and I still got misgendered! It really soured my day. I wish I didn't care so much but I kept a calm face.

[Iciaros]

I dressed kinda fem and I still got misgendered! It really soured my day. I wish I didn't care so much but I kept a calm face.

Oh dear that really sucks.

[Grenartia]

Again, he’s not being a transphobe.

he very much is. thanks for conceding he's a sexist though, that on its own is enough

Fam, he wasn't being transphobic. He was simply saying that the people expressing transmisogynistic bullshit do so because of misandrism, because they view trans women as men. This is entirely distinct from saying transwomen are men, which he didn't do, and actually said otherwise.

TBF, somebody who holds bigoted ideas toward groups of people can still play civility politics even with the people they're bigoted against.

But he’s not a transphobe. I wouldn’t tolerate such a conduct coming from my own SO as it would betray my convictions. You don’t have to believe me, of course. But I know he’s not being one.

As someone who has known Nana for long enough to know that not only is she not a transphobe herself, but a more than competent ally, I trust her judgement on her own husband and whether or not he's transphobic.

That would seem to mask the true motivations of the hate, though.

After all, what you call transmisogyny (and the previously cited examples of using the gendered slur of toxic masculinity as a concept to engage in it) is not motivated by hatred of women, where the root "misogyny" comes from. It's from viewing them as a man invading and hatred of, what they view as, a man in the wrong place.

Transmisogyny would seem to imply it's motivated by hatred of women, when in fact it's motivated by hatred of men.

literally read any of the literature dude

Not everyone has the time or desire to read incredibly dry and boring texts that might not even be correct. I find it kinda elitist to say that. You shouldn't have to read enough dry, boring, academic circlejerky books to earn a PhD in Gender Studies to be able to express an opinion here without being unfairly maligned.

Not especially, but sometimes language just doesn't.

I guess that's the ultimate takeaway. Why do we park on driveways, and drive on parkways?

this is dubious at best. most terfs are perfectly fine with men who don't challenge gender norms.

Hardly. Their crusade against men is on the backburner compared to their hatred of trans people, but it's a significant issue.

Pretty much this.

Hating a transgender person because you think they're unstable, seeking attention, or trying to corrupt your children is transphobic.

Hating them because you think they're men is really just misandry.

... No, it's really fucking not. It's literally the most aggrandizing form of fucking transphobia possible, considering trans identity revolves around not being the gender you were assigned at birth. Sure, it can be misandrist too, but it's 100% fucking transphobia.

Most definitely. It can also simultaneously be misogynist, even when coming from TERFs (especially when they reduce women to nothing more than their ability to reproduce).

Oh, I have an update on my friend. She’s at home, and slowly working on her therapy. She seems to be improving in that she sounds a bit more positive. Although I know that after her ordeal, her recovery will take some time. She’s going to enroll at community college to take a few self-interest classes, nothing too stressful. She said it will keep her occupied with subjects she enjoys. Her family is as supportive as ever. I was rather glad she reached to me this time. I’ve been giving her space, her mom updates me, but I’m glad to hear her a bit more hopeful.

Here's hoping its smooth sailing for her from now on.

I mean, not really. Every instance I've seen of the term "toxic masculinity" being used has been in reference to genuinely toxic behavior that-



JFC, are you serious?

This is one of the greatest loads of horseshit I've read in a long while.

I see you don't read your own posts very often then...

Anyway, Gallo is right. Personally I've only seen "toxic masculinity" be used in reference to genuinely toxic behavior at best one in five times.

Maybe that's a sign that a lot of what's perceived as "acceptable" behavior for men is actually toxic.

And even then it's almost always colored by the person using the term being one of those "lol men having feelings? #MasculinitySoFragile" sorts, or some other type of similarly toxic individual who shouldn't be calling anything toxic.

I've literally never seen that. The "Masculinity So Fragile" thing is only really used in reference to toxic masculinity that says men can't like flowers, or have any feelings aside from "HULK ANGRY HULK SMASH".

So for the time being, I am kind of back in the closet again. Took a job in a different part of the country and for now, I'm still trying to gauge how safe/accepting the new environment is. My family supports me, so at home I'm still me, but not being able to be openly transfeminine in public is going to be an adjustment.

Fuck, I'm sorry to hear that, but glad you're safe.

Trans rights

AAAAAAAAAAAH!

You said the secret word!

I dressed kinda fem and I still got misgendered! It really soured my day. I wish I didn't care so much but I kept a calm face.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I've literally never seen that. The "Masculinity So Fragile" thing is only really used in reference to toxic masculinity that says men can't like flowers, or have any feelings aside from "HULK ANGRY HULK SMASH".

From my experience I've never seen "#masculinitysofragile" used in any context other than making fun of men for calling out misandry or for sticking up for mens' rights. Never seen it used in response to anything resembling "toxic masculinity," quite the opposite.

[West Leas Oros 2]

I've literally never seen that. The "Masculinity So Fragile" thing is only really used in reference to toxic masculinity that says men can't like flowers, or have any feelings aside from "HULK ANGRY HULK SMASH".

From my experience I've never seen "#masculinitysofragile" used in any context other than making fun of men for calling out misandry or for sticking up for mens' rights. Never seen it used in response to anything resembling "toxic masculinity," quite the opposite.

It's little more than condescending, elitist mockery. At least in my experience.

[Iciaros]

From my experience I've never seen "#masculinitysofragile" used in any context other than making fun of men for calling out misandry or for sticking up for mens' rights. Never seen it used in response to anything resembling "toxic masculinity," quite the opposite.

It's little more than condescending, elitist mockery. At least in my experience.

I just don't use social media, so this is the first time I've heard of this. (Of course, here is the place I often hear of things for the first time anyway, so nothing new there.) Is the movement/hashtag/other descriptor, like, a big or notable thing?

[Cappuccina]

From my experience I've never seen "#masculinitysofragile" used in any context other than making fun of men for calling out misandry or for sticking up for mens' rights. Never seen it used in response to anything resembling "toxic masculinity," quite the opposite.

It's little more than condescending, elitist mockery. At least in my experience.

Kinda like modern feminism as a whole.

[Proctopeo]

I see you don't read your own posts very often then...

Anyway, Gallo is right. Personally I've only seen "toxic masculinity" be used in reference to genuinely toxic behavior at best one in five times.

Maybe that's a sign that a lot of what's perceived as "acceptable" behavior for men is actually toxic.

No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior". It's rarely used in reference to that.

And even then it's almost always colored by the person using the term being one of those "lol men having feelings? #MasculinitySoFragile" sorts, or some other type of similarly toxic individual who shouldn't be calling anything toxic.

I've literally never seen that. The "Masculinity So Fragile" thing is only really used in reference to toxic masculinity that says men can't like flowers, or have any feelings aside from "HULK ANGRY HULK SMASH".

Xenopolis, WLO, and Cappu responded more succinctly than I would've on this.
Unless you consider grey-colored beds, soap with cool grips, and novelty chocolates "toxic masculinity", in which case you're just delusional (and probably complain about attractive women in advertising campaigns).

[Cappuccina]

Maybe that's a sign that a lot of what's perceived as "acceptable" behavior for men is actually toxic.

No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior". It's rarely used in reference to that.

I've literally never seen that. The "Masculinity So Fragile" thing is only really used in reference to toxic masculinity that says men can't like flowers, or have any feelings aside from "HULK ANGRY HULK SMASH".

Xenopolis, WLO, and Cappu responded more succinctly than I would've on this.
Unless you consider grey-colored beds, soap with cool grips, and novelty chocolates "toxic masculinity", in which case you're just delusional (and probably complain about attractive women in advertising campaigns).

I find it telling that there's a "toxic masculinity", but no corresponding "toxic femininity". Men are always the issue, not we poor helpless, but strong independent women!!!

[Proctopeo]

No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior". It's rarely used in reference to that.


Xenopolis, WLO, and Cappu responded more succinctly than I would've on this.
Unless you consider grey-colored beds, soap with cool grips, and novelty chocolates "toxic masculinity", in which case you're just delusional (and probably complain about attractive women in advertising campaigns).

I find it telling that there's a "toxic masculinity", but no corresponding "toxic femininity". Men are always the issue, not we poor helpless, but strong independent women!!!

Yeah, it's... suspect. Really does tell a lot about feminism doesn't it?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior". It's rarely used in reference to that.


Xenopolis, WLO, and Cappu responded more succinctly than I would've on this.
Unless you consider grey-colored beds, soap with cool grips, and novelty chocolates "toxic masculinity", in which case you're just delusional (and probably complain about attractive women in advertising campaigns).

I find it telling that there's a "toxic masculinity", but no corresponding "toxic femininity". Men are always the issue, not we poor helpless, but strong independent women!!!

I’m sure there’s probably a corresponding term for such ladies. The one I’ve heard is "bitch", and used by men and women alike.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior". It's rarely used in reference to that.


Xenopolis, WLO, and Cappu responded more succinctly than I would've on this.
Unless you consider grey-colored beds, soap with cool grips, and novelty chocolates "toxic masculinity", in which case you're just delusional (and probably complain about attractive women in advertising campaigns).

I find it telling that there's a "toxic masculinity", but no corresponding "toxic femininity". Men are always the issue, not we poor helpless, but strong independent women!!!

The whole point of feminism is that the female and male parts of the populations deal with different issues. Society puts different expectations on the genders. For men, this is an expectation of strength, violence, lack of nuance and no emotional output. For women, this is objectification, less interest in manual labour and the STEM fields. We just don’t call it ‘toxic femininity’, but if that’s your criticism then you have not gone too deeply into the issue at all.

[Cappuccina]

I find it telling that there's a "toxic masculinity", but no corresponding "toxic femininity". Men are always the issue, not we poor helpless, but strong independent women!!!

The whole point of feminism is that the female and male parts of the populations deal with different issues. Society puts different expectations on the genders. For men, this is an expectation of strength, violence, lack of nuance and no emotional output. For women, this is objectification, less interest in manual labour and the STEM fields. We just don’t call it ‘toxic femininity’, but if that’s your criticism then you have not gone too deeply into the issue at all.

If there is such a term as "toxic femininity" in the feminist lexicon, they sure neglect it.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

The whole point of feminism is that the female and male parts of the populations deal with different issues. Society puts different expectations on the genders. For men, this is an expectation of strength, violence, lack of nuance and no emotional output. For women, this is objectification, less interest in manual labour and the STEM fields. We just don’t call it ‘toxic femininity’, but if that’s your criticism then you have not gone too deeply into the issue at all.

If there is such a term as "toxic femininity" in the feminist lexicon, they sure neglect it.

We just don’t call it ‘toxic femininity’, but if that’s your criticism then you have not gone too deeply into the issue at all.

Just repeating this because you seem to have missed it.

Also, toxic masculinity is seen as something bad imposed on men, not the fault of the men themselves, generally. It’s basically an issue where feminists fight in favour of men. You seem to misundertand what toxic masculinity even means.

[Proctopeo]

If there is such a term as "toxic femininity" in the feminist lexicon, they sure neglect it.

We just don’t call it ‘toxic femininity’, but if that’s your criticism then you have not gone too deeply into the issue at all.

Just repeating this because you seem to have missed it.

Also, toxic masculinity is seen as something bad imposed on men, not the fault of the men themselves, generally. It’s basically an issue where feminists fight in favour of men. You seem to misundertand what toxic masculinity even means.

So do about 98% of people who actually use the term, which suggests that their definition is predominant if not "official"
also >feminism fighting in favor of men on anything
I'm avin a laff

[Cappuccina]

If there is such a term as "toxic femininity" in the feminist lexicon, they sure neglect it.

We just don’t call it ‘toxic femininity’, but if that’s your criticism then you have not gone too deeply into the issue at all.

Just repeating this because you seem to have missed it.

Also, toxic masculinity is seen as something bad imposed on men, not the fault of the men themselves, generally. It’s basically an issue where feminists fight in favour of men. You seem to misundertand what toxic masculinity even means.

Feminism doesn't "fight for" anyone, not even women.

Ok then, what is non-toxic masculinity? How can there be either toxic or non-toxic masculinity if "gender is a social construct" and doesn't really exist?

[Cataluna]

Just repeating this because you seem to have missed it.

Also, toxic masculinity is seen as something bad imposed on men, not the fault of the men themselves, generally. It’s basically an issue where feminists fight in favour of men. You seem to misundertand what toxic masculinity even means.

Feminism doesn't "fight for" anyone, not even women.

Ok then, what is non-toxic masculinity? How can there be either toxic or non-toxic masculinity if "gender is a social construct" and doesn't really exist?

Gender isn’t a social construct. Gender expression is. Toxic masculinity is the defensiveness men feel when confronted with the possibility of becoming “the other”. Examples of its manifestation include the use of “queer” as an insult, the taboo associated with male crossdressing, and the expectation for men to sleep around. There are men who do not express masculinity in a toxic way, but society pressures them to.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Feminism doesn't "fight for" anyone, not even women.

Ok then, what is non-toxic masculinity? How can there be either toxic or non-toxic masculinity if "gender is a social construct" and doesn't really exist?

Gender isn’t a social construct. Gender expression is. Toxic masculinity is the defensiveness men feel when confronted with the possibility of becoming “the other”. Examples of its manifestation include the use of “queer” as an insult, the taboo associated with male crossdressing, and the expectation for men to sleep around. There are men who do not express masculinity in a toxic way, but society pressures them to.

What do you mean by "the other?"

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Gender isn’t a social construct. Gender expression is. Toxic masculinity is the defensiveness men feel when confronted with the possibility of becoming “the other”. Examples of its manifestation include the use of “queer” as an insult, the taboo associated with male crossdressing, and the expectation for men to sleep around. There are men who do not express masculinity in a toxic way, but society pressures them to.

What do you mean by "the other?"

Men turn into woman. Woman into men. Other-izing can be seen as a detriment to certain people.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Just repeating this because you seem to have missed it.

Also, toxic masculinity is seen as something bad imposed on men, not the fault of the men themselves, generally. It’s basically an issue where feminists fight in favour of men. You seem to misundertand what toxic masculinity even means.

So do about 98% of people who actually use the term, which suggests that their definition is predominant if not "official"
also >feminism fighting in favor of men on anything
I'm avin a laff

Well, if you show me the science and the source of that 98%...

Yeah, feminists fight for the rights of men too. If you laugh about that you don’t understand feminism. That’s not on me.

Just repeating this because you seem to have missed it.

Also, toxic masculinity is seen as something bad imposed on men, not the fault of the men themselves, generally. It’s basically an issue where feminists fight in favour of men. You seem to misundertand what toxic masculinity even means.

Feminism doesn't "fight for" anyone, not even women.

Ok then, what is non-toxic masculinity? How can there be either toxic or non-toxic masculinity if "gender is a social construct" and doesn't really exist?

Gender is indeed a social construct. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It exists as a construct. You are wilfully misunderstanding feminist rhetoric by conflating various different ideas.

Yeah, there is both toxic and non-toxic masculinity. A large portion of feminists (though not all) believe there are masculine and feminine traits. Just that those traits are not defined by your sex assigned at birth. Certain traits are seen as masculine and are destructive to men and their surroundings, but imposed by societal expecations, ‘the construct’. Feminists want these unfair and selfdestructive expectations on men to vanish. The expectation to want and get sex all the time is a demand of toxic masculinity. It’s not bad to have sex all the time, but the demand on men is unfair. Incel culture is a result of unfair expectations, and an example of toxic masculinity.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

What do you mean by "the other?"

Men turn into woman. Woman into men. Other-izing can be seen as a detriment to certain people.

Lmao why would any man get worried about becoming a woman, that sounds dope...

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Men turn into woman. Woman into men. Other-izing can be seen as a detriment to certain people.

Lmao why would any man get worried about becoming a woman, that sounds dope...

If you live in a society where being a woman is seen as being weak or fragile, and being a man is seen as a sign of strength and might, it could be seen as confusing and even threatening for a person who is perceived to be a person to have the gender expression of a woman. For such a individual, being female is being the other. And therefore, they hate it.

[Proctopeo]

So do about 98% of people who actually use the term, which suggests that their definition is predominant if not "official"
also >feminism fighting in favor of men on anything
I'm avin a laff

Well, if you show me the science and the source of that 98%...

Yeah, feminists fight for the rights of men too. If you laugh about that you don’t understand feminism. That’s not on me.

Honestly believing that feminists fight for the rights of men instead of giving occasional lip service to the idea while at best doing literally nothing means you don't understand feminism...