TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Mettaton-EX]

... It's literally not twisting anything around. Transmisogyny is bigotry toward trans women, and transmisandry is bigotry toward trans men. There's no other way about it.

That would seem to mask the true motivations of the hate, though.

After all, what you call transmisogyny (and the previously cited examples of using the gendered slur of toxic masculinity as a concept to engage in it) is not motivated by hatred of women, where the root "misogyny" comes from. It's from viewing them as a man invading and hatred of, what they view as, a man in the wrong place.

Transmisogyny would seem to imply it's motivated by hatred of women, when in fact it's motivated by hatred of men.

literally read any of the literature dude

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Venga, pa’ que te enteres. Mi esposo, ya va para 10 años.

Â, va. Un poquitín tarde, pero felicidades.

It’s ok y gracies.

[Torrocca]

... It's literally not twisting anything around. Transmisogyny is bigotry toward trans women, and transmisandry is bigotry toward trans men. There's no other way about it.

That would seem to mask the true motivations of the hate, though.

After all, what you call transmisogyny (and the previously cited examples of using the gendered slur of toxic masculinity as a concept to engage in it) is not motivated by hatred of women, where the root "misogyny" comes from. It's from viewing them as a man invading and hatred of, what they view as, a man in the wrong place.

Transmisogyny would seem to imply it's motivated by hatred of women, when in fact it's motivated by hatred of men.

It's motivated by a hatred of trans women based on perceptions they're not women, hence the reason that it's called transmisogyny.

[Cekoviu]

... That has literally nothing to do with transmisogyny.

I mean, i guess you could twist it around so transmen suffer transmisandry while transwomen suffer transmisogyny, based on the gender status of the victim and not the beliefs of the perpetrator.

But that just requires an extra layer of explanation and analysis to something that's more simply (and rationally) explained by starting with the beliefs and actions of the perpetrator.

Because this hate usually comes from the fact that they're seen as the thing they are not by the person doing the hating.

Sure, but there's a difference between misogyny and transmisogyny. Transmisandry might be underlyingly misogyny, but that doesn't make it transmisogyny.
Does that make sense?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

galloism, your implication that transmisogyny is actually ~*~misandry~*~ and not misogyny is itself extremely transphobic. go away.

Much of the bigotry against transwomen, especially by TERF types is misdirected misandry. They hate transwomen because they are under the false impression that we are men.

[Kowani]

Okay, as nice as this debate has been, does it matter overmuch whether discrimination against is misogyny or misandry?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

That would seem to mask the true motivations of the hate, though.

After all, what you call transmisogyny (and the previously cited examples of using the gendered slur of toxic masculinity as a concept to engage in it) is not motivated by hatred of women, where the root "misogyny" comes from. It's from viewing them as a man invading and hatred of, what they view as, a man in the wrong place.

Transmisogyny would seem to imply it's motivated by hatred of women, when in fact it's motivated by hatred of men.

It's motivated by a hatred of trans women based on perceptions they're not women, hence the reason that it's called transmisogyny.

I think the issue here is or could be that while you add the ‘trans’ to the terms, for people who do not consider trans men men or trans women women, it’s just plain ‘misandry’ for the trans women and ‘misogyny’ for trans men.

[Cekoviu]

... It's literally not twisting anything around. Transmisogyny is bigotry toward trans women, and transmisandry is bigotry toward trans men. There's no other way about it.

That would seem to mask the true motivations of the hate, though.

After all, what you call transmisogyny (and the previously cited examples of using the gendered slur of toxic masculinity as a concept to engage in it) is not motivated by hatred of women, where the root "misogyny" comes from. It's from viewing them as a man invading and hatred of, what they view as, a man in the wrong place.

Transmisogyny would seem to imply it's motivated by hatred of women, when in fact it's motivated by hatred of men.

Admittedly, this bothers me largely linguistically.

It's not necessarily misandry as applied by the sort of people who apply the "trans panic defense." They're often actual misogynists and they specifically hate trans women for being trans, not because they're biased against men.
You're talking about exclusively TERFs, who are not the primary enactors of transmisogyny.

[Galloism]

That would seem to mask the true motivations of the hate, though.

After all, what you call transmisogyny (and the previously cited examples of using the gendered slur of toxic masculinity as a concept to engage in it) is not motivated by hatred of women, where the root "misogyny" comes from. It's from viewing them as a man invading and hatred of, what they view as, a man in the wrong place.

Transmisogyny would seem to imply it's motivated by hatred of women, when in fact it's motivated by hatred of men.

It's motivated by a hatred of trans women based on perceptions they're not women, hence the reason that it's called transmisogyny.

If that's how it's played out I accede to your linguistic interpretation. Who am I to argue with societal term use.

But it still doesn't change the fact that their motivation for hatred of transwomen is they hate men, and motivation for hatred of transmen is they hate women.

Which leads us to a funny linguistic thing:

Transmisogyny is caused by underlying misandry, and transmisandry is caused by underlying misogyny.

That really bothers me linguistically, but if that's what everyone's agreed to.

Sure, but there's a difference between misogyny and transmisogyny. Transmisandry might be underlyingly misogyny, but that doesn't make it transmisogyny.
Does that make sense?

Not especially, but sometimes language just doesn't.

[Torrocca]

galloism, your implication that transmisogyny is actually ~*~misandry~*~ and not misogyny is itself extremely transphobic. go away.

Much of the bigotry against transwomen, especially by TERF types is misdirected misandry. They hate transwomen because they are under the false impression that we are men.

That's kinda the point, though. It's transmisogyny caused by misandrist ideas.

[Torrocca]

It's motivated by a hatred of trans women based on perceptions they're not women, hence the reason that it's called transmisogyny.

If that's how it's played out I accede to your linguistic interpretation. Who am I to argue with societal term use.

But it still doesn't change the fact that their motivation for hatred of transwomen is they hate men, and motivation for hatred of transmen is they hate women.

Which leads us to a funny linguistic thing:

Transmisogyny is caused by underlying misandry, and transmisandry is caused by underlying misogyny.

That really bothers me linguistically, but if that's what everyone's agreed to.

Sure, it's weird, but that's how it works. They're hating trans women (transmisogyny) or trans men (transmisandry) based on perceptions built around hate of men (misandry) or women (misogyny), by arguing trans people aren't the gender that they actually are.

[Des-Bal]

Anti-Semitism caused by Islamaphobic ideas.

Similarly, a trans woman or a trans man perceiving hatred because they're perceived to be a man or a woman would still ultimately be transmisogyny or transmisandry, respectively, but caused by misandrist or misogynist ideas.

So if an someone operating under those false assumptions were to beat the hypothetical jewish person while screaming "I'm doing this because I love the jewish people and wish to protect them from the predations of evil muslims like you muslims suck jews rule etc. I'm being blatant about this!" That in your mind would be an anti-semitic attack? That's ridiculous.

[Mettaton-EX]

galloism, your implication that transmisogyny is actually ~*~misandry~*~ and not misogyny is itself extremely transphobic. go away.

Much of the bigotry against transwomen, especially by TERF types is misdirected misandry. They hate transwomen because they are under the false impression that we are men.

this is dubious at best. most terfs are perfectly fine with men who don't challenge gender norms.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

By daring to invade (women born) women's spaces, they are accused of having toxic male entitlement - a form of toxic masculinity.

Basically, they are hated because they are seen as men.

You got some proof of that, that that's a claim people make about transwomen?

TERFs make that claim a lot.

[Torrocca]

Anti-Semitism caused by Islamaphobic ideas.

Similarly, a trans woman or a trans man perceiving hatred because they're perceived to be a man or a woman would still ultimately be transmisogyny or transmisandry, respectively, but caused by misandrist or misogynist ideas.

So if an someone operating under those false assumptions were to beat the hypothetical jewish person while screaming "I'm doing this because I love the jewish people and wish to protect them from the predations of evil muslims like you muslims suck jews rule etc. I'm being blatant about this!" That in your mind would be an anti-semitic attack? That's ridiculous.

Yes, because they're hating on a Jewish person for apparently not being a Jewish person despite any and all claims to the contrary, because they're adamant in their beliefs that that person's actually a Muslim. It's Anti-Semitism predicated on Islamaphobic ideas. Similarly how transmisogyny is predicated on misandry, or vice versa for transmisandry.

[Cekoviu]

Much of the bigotry against transwomen, especially by TERF types is misdirected misandry. They hate transwomen because they are under the false impression that we are men.

this is dubious at best. most terfs are perfectly fine with men who don't challenge gender norms.

Hardly. Their crusade against men is on the backburner compared to their hatred of trans people, but it's a significant issue.

[Des-Bal]

Okay, as nice as this debate has been, does it matter overmuch whether discrimination against is misogyny or misandry?

I think it does because whenever someone says "we can't let transgender people in this space, they'll rape and kill all the women because they're really men" which is of course countered with "we won't rape and kill all the women because we're not men."

Calling hatred and fear of men transmisogyny seems like a handy way of avoiding the issue of hating and fearing men.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

this is dubious at best. most terfs are perfectly fine with men who don't challenge gender norms.

Hardly. Their crusade against men is on the backburner compared to their hatred of trans people, but it's a significant issue.

I’ve seen a few statements online about trans people from TERFs that would turn your stomach.

[Des-Bal]

Yes, because they're hating on a Jewish person for apparently not being a Jewish person despite any and all claims to the contrary, because they're adamant in their beliefs that that person's actually a Muslim. It's Anti-Semitism predicated on Islamaphobic ideas. Similarly how transmisogyny is predicated on misandry, or vice versa for transmisandry.

That's totally insane. When a straight guy gets beat up because people think he's gay it's not a heterophobic attack, the hatred of that group had nothing to do with it.

[Torrocca]

Okay, as nice as this debate has been, does it matter overmuch whether discrimination against is misogyny or misandry?

I think it does because whenever someone says "we can't let transgender people in this space, they'll rape and kill all the women because they're really men" which is of course countered with "we won't rape and kill all the women because we're not men."

Calling hatred and fear of men transmisogyny seems like a handy way of avoiding the issue of hating and fearing men.

Calling a hatred and fear of transwomen for misandrist reasons transmisogyny is a perfectly valid way to label such bigotry, thank you very much.

[Cekoviu]

Hardly. Their crusade against men is on the backburner compared to their hatred of trans people, but it's a significant issue.

I’ve seen a few statements online about trans people from TERFs that would turn your stomach.

I've been to TERF spaces before. It's not pretty.
Few things make me legitimately enraged, but the kind of vitriol I saw there was enough to make my blood boil.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Much of the bigotry against transwomen, especially by TERF types is misdirected misandry. They hate transwomen because they are under the false impression that we are men.

this is dubious at best. most terfs are perfectly fine with men who don't challenge gender norms.

A fair few of them hate men who don't challenge gender norms. They are radical feminists after all.

[Torrocca]

Yes, because they're hating on a Jewish person for apparently not being a Jewish person despite any and all claims to the contrary, because they're adamant in their beliefs that that person's actually a Muslim. It's Anti-Semitism predicated on Islamaphobic ideas. Similarly how transmisogyny is predicated on misandry, or vice versa for transmisandry.

That's totally insane. When a straight guy gets beat up because people think he's gay it's not a heterophobic attack, the hatred of that group had nothing to do with it.

Could just be, then, that the situation's wholly different when it comes to trans people.

It's still literally transmisogyny to hate a trans woman because they're perceived to be a man.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I’ve seen a few statements online about trans people from TERFs that would turn your stomach.

I've been to TERF spaces before. It's not pretty.
Few things make me legitimately enraged, but the kind of vitriol I saw there was enough to make my blood boil.

I can’t blame you. Reading some of their statements makes me feel ill. I read one that pretty much instructed women to kill their kid if said kid were transgender. And it had so many likes and shares. I couldn’t believe it at first.

[Des-Bal]

Could just be, then, that the situation's wholly different when it comes to trans people.

It's still literally transmisogyny to hate a trans woman because they're perceived to be a man.

Hating a transgender person because you think they're unstable, seeking attention, or trying to corrupt your children is transphobic.

Hating them because you think they're men is really just misandry.