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New US Sanctions on Cuba - and Venezuela related discuss

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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New US Cuban Sanctions Related to Venezuela - Vote and Post your views - Discuss Poll options

01 - we support the activation of title 3 of the Helms Burton embargo law signed by President Bill Clinton allowing Cuban Americans, American citizens and Corporations to sue European, Canadian and other Foreign Businesses dealing with the Cuban government through American confiscated properties in Cuba, and Confiscated Cuban American Properties in Cuba.
14
8%
02 - we oppose the activation of title 3 of the Helms Burton Embargo law signed by President Bill Clinton.
30
16%
03 - we support American sanctions on Venezuelan and foreign corporations shipping oil to Cuba.
14
8%
04 - we oppose American sanctions on Venezuelan and foreign corporations shipping oil to Cuba.
26
14%
05 - we support the new restrictions of Cuban American family remittances and care packages to Cuba no matter how mild the new restrictions are, which are actually very mild.
7
4%
06 - we oppose the new restrictions of Cuban American family remittances and care packages to Cuba no matter how mild the new restrictions are.
24
13%
07 - we support the new restrictions on Cuban visitor visas and emigration visas to the USA no matter how mild the new restrictions are, which are actually very mild.
8
4%
08 - we oppose the new restrictions on Cuban visitor visas and emigration visas to the USA.
30
16%
09 - The Cuban government are the real hardline intransigents not the Cuban American Community, and they just created a new Cuban constitution declaring the Communist party as the only political party allowed guiding the nation and the revolution, which is irrevocable, all that language is in the new constitution, discuss the new Cuban constitution.
15
8%
10 - Cuba is already a democratic communist socialist democracy and state, it does not need to change anything, and they just created a new democratic Cuban constitution, discuss the new Cuban constitution, the Cuban American community are the real hardline intransigents.
17
9%
 
Total votes : 185

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Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores
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Postby Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:08 pm

Gormwood wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:That is a long poll.

Anyway, we where so close to just accepting what Cuba is nowadays with Obama.

Just give it up with the sanctions already, Cuba isn't going to change.

Some people long for the days when Cuba was an easily exploited mafia state with no regard for the wellbeing of the average Cuban people.

On a side note, the sanctions are amusingly hypocritical given allegations of how the Trump Organization conducted business with Cuba despite the Embargo being active.

lol, what do you think they got now under the eternal one political party state revolution for life, a democracy? lol.

President Trump made some research into doing business with the Cuban government and decided against it, case closed, He dicho caso cerrado, an expression.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:09 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Eh, one of the reasons Batista fell is will cut off support to his regime.
Unfortunately we failed to ensure a proper transition to a better one.

But a friendly mafia state while still bad is better than a hostile one.


Better for you, probably not better for the people living under it.


True, but not worse for them either.
And we should keep what benefits us in mind.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:09 pm

Novus America wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:That is a long poll.

Anyway, we where so close to just accepting what Cuba is nowadays with Obama.

Just give it up with the sanctions already, Cuba isn't going to change.


If Cuba will not change then why should we change?
Why should we trade with Cuba? We have a right to choose who we do and do not want to trade with. We should not trade with hostile governments.


Perhaps some consideration and self-reflection is due as why this particular government is a 'hostile' one to begin with.

I think intellectually honest examination would conclude one to argue that anybody in the same position would be a 'hostile' government.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

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Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores
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Postby Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Novus America wrote:
If Cuba will not change then why should we change?
Why should we trade with Cuba? We have a right to choose who we do and do not want to trade with. We should not trade with hostile governments.


Perhaps some consideration and self-reflection is due as why this particular government is a 'hostile' one to begin with.

I think intellectually honest examination would conclude one to argue that anybody in the same position would be a 'hostile' government.

And vice versa Cedoria, on the American governments part, lol my favorite expression.

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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Novus America wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
Better for you, probably not better for the people living under it.


True, but not worse for them either.
And we should keep what benefits us in mind.


Of course you should, but you don't then get to go all hypocrite and pretend this has anything to do with the Cuban population.

The US will do as it wills in Latin America and punish those who resist as it always has done, even since well before the Bolshevik Revolution. Nobody who parrots the self-serving lines about 'democracy' and 'freedom' in the region as a justification for it can be taken seriously on any of these topics.

I respect a lot more those who admit the self-serving motives of US imperialist politics in the region while still defending it, at least they are honest and lacking in self-deception.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:12 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Novus America wrote:
If Cuba will not change then why should we change?
Why should we trade with Cuba? We have a right to choose who we do and do not want to trade with. We should not trade with hostile governments.


Perhaps some consideration and self-reflection is due as why this particular government is a 'hostile' one to begin with.

I think intellectually honest examination would conclude one to argue that anybody in the same position would be a 'hostile' government.


A Marxist state will always be hostile to US.
And regardless giving them money will not fix it either.

But I actually do think we should change our policy in making the embargo only a one way embargo. Sell them our stuff but refuse to buy theirs.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Cedoria
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Founded: Feb 22, 2014
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Postby Cedoria » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:13 pm

Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
Perhaps some consideration and self-reflection is due as why this particular government is a 'hostile' one to begin with.

I think intellectually honest examination would conclude one to argue that anybody in the same position would be a 'hostile' government.

And vice versa Cedoria, on the American governments part, lol my favorite expression.


The American government had far less reasoning, given it's own history and part. The hostility it generated in Cuba was entirely self-inflicted.

That's not the case everywhere, where dislike and hatred is often a result of stupidity or hostile actions on both sides, but there's nothing like that here. Cuba was and is a small and poor country that has never had the capacity to pose a substantial threat to the United States, comparing the two to one another in terms of thread level is so grotesquely absurd that it's funny.

Or would be, if people didn't believe that crap.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:14 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Novus America wrote:
True, but not worse for them either.
And we should keep what benefits us in mind.


Of course you should, but you don't then get to go all hypocrite and pretend this has anything to do with the Cuban population.

The US will do as it wills in Latin America and punish those who resist as it always has done, even since well before the Bolshevik Revolution. Nobody who parrots the self-serving lines about 'democracy' and 'freedom' in the region as a justification for it can be taken seriously on any of these topics.

I respect a lot more those who admit the self-serving motives of US imperialist politics in the region while still defending it, at least they are honest and lacking in self-deception.


Well what benefits us and what benefits the Cuban people is not necessarily mutually exclusive.
But I will be the first to admit the US often has self serving policies.
Though refusing trade is not imperialism.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Cedoria
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Founded: Feb 22, 2014
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Postby Cedoria » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:14 pm

Novus America wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
Perhaps some consideration and self-reflection is due as why this particular government is a 'hostile' one to begin with.

I think intellectually honest examination would conclude one to argue that anybody in the same position would be a 'hostile' government.


A Marxist state will always be hostile to US.
And regardless giving them money will not fix it either.

But I actually do think we should change our policy in making the embargo only a one way embargo. Sell them our stuff but refuse to buy theirs.


I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that without the actions and policies of the United States, the Marxist state in question wouldn't exist in the first place. Nobody with an understanding of the history of Cuba-US relations could deny that the rise of Castro was almost entirely a result of justified resentment of decades of American policy on the island.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores
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Postby Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:15 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Novus America wrote:
True, but not worse for them either.
And we should keep what benefits us in mind.


Of course you should, but you don't then get to go all hypocrite and pretend this has anything to do with the Cuban population.

The US will do as it wills in Latin America and punish those who resist as it always has done, even since well before the Bolshevik Revolution. Nobody who parrots the self-serving lines about 'democracy' and 'freedom' in the region as a justification for it can be taken seriously on any of these topics.

I respect a lot more those who admit the self-serving motives of US imperialist politics in the region while still defending it, at least they are honest and lacking in self-deception.

Cedoria. y gather you believe Cuba is a democratic communist socialist state democracy like poll option 10, which is your democratic right to do so and your right to post it.

Cuba under the Castros and the eternal one political party state revolution for life is a dictatorship nation.

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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:16 pm

Novus America wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
Of course you should, but you don't then get to go all hypocrite and pretend this has anything to do with the Cuban population.

The US will do as it wills in Latin America and punish those who resist as it always has done, even since well before the Bolshevik Revolution. Nobody who parrots the self-serving lines about 'democracy' and 'freedom' in the region as a justification for it can be taken seriously on any of these topics.

I respect a lot more those who admit the self-serving motives of US imperialist politics in the region while still defending it, at least they are honest and lacking in self-deception.


Well what benefits us and what benefits the Cuban people is not necessarily mutually exclusive.
But I will be the first to admit the US often has self serving policies.
Though refusing trade is not imperialism.



I wasn't referring to the Embargo as imperialism.


"Often" is a nice hand-wave, still, you admit that much at least.

Yes, in this case, the benefits are clearly mutually exclusive, since we already know what a Cuba totally subservient to the United States looks like. No need to theorise about mutual benefit in that exchange, we already know there wouldn't be.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:17 pm

Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
Of course you should, but you don't then get to go all hypocrite and pretend this has anything to do with the Cuban population.

The US will do as it wills in Latin America and punish those who resist as it always has done, even since well before the Bolshevik Revolution. Nobody who parrots the self-serving lines about 'democracy' and 'freedom' in the region as a justification for it can be taken seriously on any of these topics.

I respect a lot more those who admit the self-serving motives of US imperialist politics in the region while still defending it, at least they are honest and lacking in self-deception.

Cedoria. y gather you believe Cuba is a democratic communist socialist state democracy like poll option 10, which is your democratic right to do so and your right to post it.

Cuba under the Castros and the eternal one political party state revolution for life is a dictatorship nation.


You repeat this statement with persistently annoying regularity on every thread on the subject. It is no more relevant now then it was the last thousand times.

Also, I made no comment about the state of democracy and human rights or lack thereof in Cuba. It's a bad sign that you feel the need to criticise arguments I haven't made in place of the ones I did.

I already know it's my right, thanks. I hardly need you to tell me, especially since you've already done it so often.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores
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Postby Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:19 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well what benefits us and what benefits the Cuban people is not necessarily mutually exclusive.
But I will be the first to admit the US often has self serving policies.
Though refusing trade is not imperialism.



I wasn't referring to the Embargo as imperialism.


"Often" is a nice hand-wave, still, you admit that much at least.

Yes, in this case, the benefits are clearly mutually exclusive, since we already know what a Cuba totally subservient to the United States looks like. No need to theorise about mutual benefit in that exchange, we already know there wouldn't be.

Cuba will have a strong economy under a capitalist western style democracy, no need for Cuban Americans to send family remittances and care packages, buy and re charge their cell phones they are now allowed to own, no shortages of food and other products, heck they can even send us family remittances, discuss you all?
Last edited by Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores on Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:24 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Novus America wrote:
A Marxist state will always be hostile to US.
And regardless giving them money will not fix it either.

But I actually do think we should change our policy in making the embargo only a one way embargo. Sell them our stuff but refuse to buy theirs.


I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that without the actions and policies of the United States, the Marxist state in question wouldn't exist in the first place. Nobody with an understanding of the history of Cuba-US relations could deny that the rise of Castro was almost entirely a result of justified resentment of decades of American policy on the island.


Sure US mistakes played a role though Castro seized power by force. Sure the Batista regime fell because it was unpopular but remember again we let it fall and placed an arms embargo on Batista in 1958.

But of course the Cuban people do not know that because the government would never tell them that.

Regardless there is no way the current regime will ever be friendly.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:25 pm

Novus America wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Because it's free money.

You are actively making the economy of both nations worse by not trading with them.

Besides, the US is trading with Saudi Arabia and a bunch of other tin pot dictatorships worse then Cuba.

The president is in huge conferences with NK, a country thats a thousand times worse then Cuba.


At least Cuba isn't trying to build nukes. Whats one more nation that gives the US a bunch of free money and GDP growth?


It is not free money. There is no such thing.
And contrary to the neoliberal religion’s theology, trade is not always beneficial.
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is not.

Cuba taking money from American customers to buy Russian weapons will result in money leaving the US only to benefit Russia.

Sure our trade with other countries needs to be reassessed as well, but making a mistake with China and Saudi Arabia does not mean we should repeat the same mistake with Cuba.

And given how pathetically small the Cuban economy is likely there would be no real improvement to US GDP.
Also imports are SUBTRACTED from GDP!

However I do agree the embargo as currently structured is completely wrong.
We should ban all Cuban goods from the US but allow Cuba to buy pretty much any American products that are not military and security related.

That would result in us having a trade surplus with Cuba.
Which would actually improve GDP, though the amount would probably be negligible.

Still imports decrease GDP, exports increase GDP.


Actually it is sense these imports and exports would be taxed, it literally is free money right there that can be easily grabbed.

Cuba isn't going to change, these sanctions in this particular case have failed.

Might as well make more jobs for US workers by opening up tourism and tax the imports and exports.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:29 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well what benefits us and what benefits the Cuban people is not necessarily mutually exclusive.
But I will be the first to admit the US often has self serving policies.
Though refusing trade is not imperialism.



I wasn't referring to the Embargo as imperialism.


"Often" is a nice hand-wave, still, you admit that much at least.

Yes, in this case, the benefits are clearly mutually exclusive, since we already know what a Cuba totally subservient to the United States looks like. No need to theorise about mutual benefit in that exchange, we already know there wouldn't be.


US policy is not always self serving. There is a substantial portion of our foreign policy establishment that are naive idealists. So often is correct.
Sometimes we are self serving, sometimes not.

But I am not advocating a return to the Batista mess, which clearly did not benefit Cuba not the US in the long term. A Cuban Government like Canada could benefit both of us though.
Last edited by Novus America on Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores
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Posts: 215
Founded: Dec 30, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:30 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Novus America wrote:
It is not free money. There is no such thing.
And contrary to the neoliberal religion’s theology, trade is not always beneficial.
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is not.

Cuba taking money from American customers to buy Russian weapons will result in money leaving the US only to benefit Russia.

Sure our trade with other countries needs to be reassessed as well, but making a mistake with China and Saudi Arabia does not mean we should repeat the same mistake with Cuba.

And given how pathetically small the Cuban economy is likely there would be no real improvement to US GDP.
Also imports are SUBTRACTED from GDP!

However I do agree the embargo as currently structured is completely wrong.
We should ban all Cuban goods from the US but allow Cuba to buy pretty much any American products that are not military and security related.

That would result in us having a trade surplus with Cuba.
Which would actually improve GDP, though the amount would probably be negligible.

Still imports decrease GDP, exports increase GDP.


Actually it is sense these imports and exports would be taxed, it literally is free money right there that can be easily grabbed.

Cuba isn't going to change, these sanctions in this particular case have failed.

Might as well make more jobs for US workers by opening up tourism and tax the imports and exports.

How about an international embargo against Cuba by the western style democratic nations similar to one on South Africa under apartheid, how about international support for a western style democratic Cuba like in Venezuela, which is supporting Maduro for obvious reasons, first Venezuela then Cuba, add Nicaragua under Daniel Ortega too. Discuss you all.
Last edited by Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores on Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:34 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Novus America wrote:
It is not free money. There is no such thing.
And contrary to the neoliberal religion’s theology, trade is not always beneficial.
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is not.

Cuba taking money from American customers to buy Russian weapons will result in money leaving the US only to benefit Russia.

Sure our trade with other countries needs to be reassessed as well, but making a mistake with China and Saudi Arabia does not mean we should repeat the same mistake with Cuba.

And given how pathetically small the Cuban economy is likely there would be no real improvement to US GDP.
Also imports are SUBTRACTED from GDP!

However I do agree the embargo as currently structured is completely wrong.
We should ban all Cuban goods from the US but allow Cuba to buy pretty much any American products that are not military and security related.

That would result in us having a trade surplus with Cuba.
Which would actually improve GDP, though the amount would probably be negligible.

Still imports decrease GDP, exports increase GDP.


Actually it is sense these imports and exports would be taxed, it literally is free money right there that can be easily grabbed.

Cuba isn't going to change, these sanctions in this particular case have failed.

Might as well make more jobs for US workers by opening up tourism and tax the imports and exports.


Tax money is not free money, and we have no consumption tax.
We could levy tariffs but the money gained from the tariffs would be less than the money going out.

Imports and tourism to Cuba would cost, not create American jobs.
Again imports and capital outflows are SUBTRACTED from GDP!

Only exports to Cuba would create American jobs.
And I agree those should be allowed.

I do think our policy needs to change.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Technocratic Uganda
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Postby Technocratic Uganda » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:35 pm

21, unsure about my gender, born male but might be trans, love hiking and nature, love gaming especially csgo and osu!

kawaii :3

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Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores
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Postby Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:38 pm

Novus America wrote:
Cedoria wrote:

I wasn't referring to the Embargo as imperialism.


"Often" is a nice hand-wave, still, you admit that much at least.

Yes, in this case, the benefits are clearly mutually exclusive, since we already know what a Cuba totally subservient to the United States looks like. No need to theorise about mutual benefit in that exchange, we already know there wouldn't be.


US policy is not always self serving. There is a substantial portion of our foreign policy establishment that are naive idealists. So often is correct.
Sometimes we are self serving, sometimes not.

But I am not advocating a return to the Batista mess, which clearly did not benefit Cuba in the long term. A Cuban Government like Canada could benefit both of us though.

A Cuban Government like Canada could benefit both of us though, and the only way to get there is the forceful end of the Castro, Diaz-Canel dictatorship eternal revolution.

Since the Castro's and Diaz-Canel are helping Maduro stay in power, how about a naval blockade of Cuba, nothing goes in, nothing goes out until the Cuban government falls from within and without, a government in exile of Cuban opposition leaders inside Cuba and outside cuba could be formed, including Cuban political prisoners, it should not take very long before it falls, discuss NS Staters.

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Cedoria
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Posts: 5986
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:40 pm

Novus America wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that without the actions and policies of the United States, the Marxist state in question wouldn't exist in the first place. Nobody with an understanding of the history of Cuba-US relations could deny that the rise of Castro was almost entirely a result of justified resentment of decades of American policy on the island.


Sure US mistakes played a role though Castro seized power by force. Sure the Batista regime fell because it was unpopular but remember again we let it fall and placed an arms embargo on Batista in 1958.

But of course the Cuban people do not know that because the government would never tell them that.

Regardless there is no way the current regime will ever be friendly.


The support of Batista wasn't a 'mistake' it was a deliberate policy of propping up a regime that they knew was despotic and prone to torture, as well as in bed with the Mafia.

The fact you automatically rationalise all this away as 'mistakes' is proof positive of the powers of self-interested propaganda.

The arms embargo in question was completely toothless, and came barely a few months before Batista fell anyway, doesn't make up for years of support before that.


You're right, the current regime will never be friendly with a country that has more then a century of trying to relegate the country it runs to the position of a slave economy in service to US corporations. They're nowhere near stupid enough, and they evidently know Cuba's history better then you do.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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Cedoria
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Posts: 5986
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:41 pm

Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores wrote:
Novus America wrote:
US policy is not always self serving. There is a substantial portion of our foreign policy establishment that are naive idealists. So often is correct.
Sometimes we are self serving, sometimes not.

But I am not advocating a return to the Batista mess, which clearly did not benefit Cuba in the long term. A Cuban Government like Canada could benefit both of us though.

A Cuban Government like Canada could benefit both of us though, and the only way to get there is the forceful end of the Castro, Diaz-Canel dictatorship eternal revolution.

Since the Castro's and Diaz-Canel are helping Maduro stay in power, how about a naval blockade of Cuba, nothing goes in, nothing goes out until the Cuban government falls from within and without, a government in exile of Cuban opposition leaders inside Cuba and outside cuba could be formed, including Cuban political prisoners, it should not take very long before it falls, discuss NS Staters.


Naval blockades are an act of war, and they already tried this when the regime was much less entrenched then it is now. Didn't work.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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Cedoria
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Posts: 5986
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:42 pm

Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Actually it is sense these imports and exports would be taxed, it literally is free money right there that can be easily grabbed.

Cuba isn't going to change, these sanctions in this particular case have failed.

Might as well make more jobs for US workers by opening up tourism and tax the imports and exports.

How about an international embargo against Cuba by the western style democratic nations similar to one on South Africa under apartheid, how about international support for a western style democratic Cuba like in Venezuela, which is supporting Maduro for obvious reasons, first Venezuela then Cuba, add Nicaragua under Daniel Ortega too. Discuss you all.


Yeah, let's put sanctions similar to the ones on Apartheid South Africa on the country that played by far one of the biggest roles in ending the fascist Apartheid government, far more then the United States ever did.


Are you completely for real?
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.



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Novus America
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Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:49 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Sure US mistakes played a role though Castro seized power by force. Sure the Batista regime fell because it was unpopular but remember again we let it fall and placed an arms embargo on Batista in 1958.

But of course the Cuban people do not know that because the government would never tell them that.

Regardless there is no way the current regime will ever be friendly.


The support of Batista wasn't a 'mistake' it was a deliberate policy of propping up a regime that they knew was despotic and prone to torture, as well as in bed with the Mafia.

The fact you automatically rationalise all this away as 'mistakes' is proof positive of the powers of self-interested propaganda.

The arms embargo in question was completely toothless, and came barely a few months before Batista fell anyway, doesn't make up for years of support before that.


You're right, the current regime will never be friendly with a country that has more then a century of trying to relegate the country it runs to the position of a slave economy in service to US corporations. They're nowhere near stupid enough, and they evidently know Cuba's history better then you do.


A deliberate policy can still be a mistake. A mistake =/= accidental.

Mistake
noun
1.
an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong.

It absolutely was a mistake. It was an action that was wrong.

It was a mistake because it was wrong. Obviously.
If it was right it would not be a mistake!

And the US is not interested in a return to the Batista era, andI would not support that.
Batista was a horrible leader.

But are you really claiming the Cuban Government is opposing the US out of the interest of the Cuban people :rofl:

Surely you realize the corrupt kleptocrats running Cuba only care about keeping their wealth and power.

The regime today is not better for the Cuban people.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:50 pm

Cedoria wrote:
Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores wrote:How about an international embargo against Cuba by the western style democratic nations similar to one on South Africa under apartheid, how about international support for a western style democratic Cuba like in Venezuela, which is supporting Maduro for obvious reasons, first Venezuela then Cuba, add Nicaragua under Daniel Ortega too. Discuss you all.


Yeah, let's put sanctions similar to the ones on Apartheid South Africa on the country that played by far one of the biggest roles in ending the fascist Apartheid government, far more then the United States ever did.


Are you completely for real?


Just because they opposed the Apartheid government does not make them good. Bad people can occasionally do good things for bad reasons.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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