Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Czervenika]

It is not that common among people you actually meet in the Orthodox Church. Where it is more common is on online chatboards and social media, which I don't have to tell you tend to be cesspools of extreme and uncharitable thought. Czerv, as someone I knew for a while, mostly encountered that kind of harshness in social media and not in person as far as she told me in the past.

I'm not going to comment on anything else she's said, or her choice in religion, but I'm not going to let it stand that the Orthodox Church is somehow incredibly abusive towards leftists (in fact I know an outright Communist who is a devout Orthodox Christian).

I'm just going to clarify that I experienced some stuff in person as well. I'd rather not air my grievances here publicly, however, so if you're curious then feel free to message me.

[A m e n r i a]

Depends on what you call left wing. If you believe "religion is the opium of the people" the combination is indeed odd; if you believe humans should take care of eachother and the planet it makes perfect sense. Moreso than rightwing religious people.

I am a revolutionary socialist so am completely anti-capitalist. If anything, I think religion promotes a lot of left-wing values. Speaking of Islam in particular you have the obligation to defend the weak and vulnerable, plus the obligatory charity.

Actually, those are right-wing values, which is why it's the right that espouses them because it's part of traditional culture. Regardless, I'm sorry you had to go through your pain, and I'd like to welcome you again to our community. Talk with any of us about anything you want, either here or privately.

[The Alma Mater]

I am a revolutionary socialist so am completely anti-capitalist. If anything, I think religion promotes a lot of left-wing values. Speaking of Islam in particular you have the obligation to defend the weak and vulnerable, plus the obligatory charity.

Actually, those are right-wing values, which is why it's the right that espouses them because it's part of traditional culture.

It depends if you are defining left and right as a "progressive - conservative" scale or as a "communist - capitalist" one.
Czervenika is doing the latter; taking care of others and defending the weak is not a traditional capitalist value.

[A m e n r i a]

Actually, those are right-wing values, which is why it's the right that espouses them because it's part of traditional culture.

It depends if you are defining left and right as a "progressive - conservative" scale or as a "communist - capitalist" one.
Czervenika is doing the latter; taking care of others and defending the weak is not a traditional capitalist value.

Tradition and capitalism are inherently opposing values. Sure, we've been trading for millennia, but chasing profit alone regardless of what happens to others was mostly imported from colonizers.

[Czervenika]

Actually, those are right-wing values, which is why it's the right that espouses them because it's part of traditional culture.

It depends if you are defining left and right as a "progressive - conservative" scale or as a "communist - capitalist" one.
Czervenika is doing the latter; taking care of others and defending the weak is not a traditional capitalist value.

This.

Capitalism is not known for taking care of others at all. It's very much "each man for himself".

[Saiwania]

Some speculation has recently come to me.

I want to ask: if climate change were to make the middle east in general too hot to be habitable for humans, if most of the entire middle east (and anywhere near the equator) was unbearably hot in that people can't sweat without air conditioning or special cooling vehicles/suits, are there any plans on what should be done, if Mecca has to be abandoned? How the pilgrimage and other aspects of Islam will have to change until or if- people get the planet back to normal?

[A m e n r i a]

Some speculation has recently come to me.

I want to ask: if climate change were to make the middle east in general too hot to be habitable for humans, if most of the entire middle east (and anywhere near the equator) was unbearably hot in that people can't sweat without air conditioning or special cooling vehicles/suits, are there any plans on what should be done, if Mecca has to be abandoned? How the pilgrimage and other aspects of Islam will have to change until or if- people get the planet back to normal?

That's an interesting question. The last pillar of Islam is "Go on pilgrimage if you can afford it", so I think God would forgive us for not going when Mecca is no longer habitable. In exchange, you'd probably see (even) more people (if possible) regularly coming to the local mosque on Fridays.

[Insaanistan]

Some speculation has recently come to me.

I want to ask: if climate change were to make the middle east in general too hot to be habitable for humans, if most of the entire middle east (and anywhere near the equator) was unbearably hot in that people can't sweat without air conditioning or special cooling vehicles/suits, are there any plans on what should be done, if Mecca has to be abandoned? How the pilgrimage and other aspects of Islam will have to change until or if- people get the planet back to normal?

If it’s genuinely to the point that it’s unsafe to go, then we are under no obligation to do so. However, there are (among other things) air conditioned tents and the like, so I suspect the more wealthy pilgrims will be able to continue to attend in this hypothetical.

[Czervenika]

Some speculation has recently come to me.

I want to ask: if climate change were to make the middle east in general too hot to be habitable for humans, if most of the entire middle east (and anywhere near the equator) was unbearably hot in that people can't sweat without air conditioning or special cooling vehicles/suits, are there any plans on what should be done, if Mecca has to be abandoned? How the pilgrimage and other aspects of Islam will have to change until or if- people get the planet back to normal?

If it’s genuinely to the point that it’s unsafe to go, then we are under no obligation to do so. However, there are (among other things) air conditioned tents and the like, so I suspect the more wealthy pilgrims will be able to continue to attend in this hypothetical.

No pilgrimage for us peasants, though. Good thing Allah is merciful and knows our intentions.

[Czervenika]

I didn't even think the west had them, really, but on Ashura I managed to attend a local procession. That was quite a powerful and moving experience. I've always known I leaned more Shi'a in the Sunni/Shi'a divide, but I think this really cemented it. Hussain is a figure that has always been close to my heart, even back in my irreligious days.

[A m e n r i a]

I didn't even think the west had them, really, but on Ashura I managed to attend a local procession. That was quite a powerful and moving experience. I've always known I leaned more Shi'a in the Sunni/Shi'a divide, but I think this really cemented it. Hussain is a figure that has always been close to my heart, even back in my irreligious days.

Glad to hear you're happy as a Muslim. Mind sharing what happened in the procession? It might be different from what we're used to experience in our homes.

[Saiwania]

What is the Muslim world's views on "involuntarily celibate" people so far as that situation and solutions go? I ask because I saw the Incel thread that got locked on here the other day and thought that it was quite a pity to see. On an Incel forum I see some if not most of them, mistakenly believe that Islam is supposed to "put women in their place." It's quite toxic.

I've come to notice that in non-Muslim circles, that the fact that Islam has polygyny in it (although limited to 4 wives) and has the "72 virgins in heaven" trope and the taking of women into sex slaves in war/battle, that this is used to trash/criticize Islam but figure that Islam has rebuttals or defenses to that so far as why it is morally good or just for their context?

Lastly, would Julaybib be Islam's closest equivalent to an Incel? The story I read is that he was poor and ugly and nobody cared about him except for Muhammad, and the Prophet personally intervened to get Julaybib married and got donations to him to make it happen, but that he died in battle afterwards and went to heaven. Do we know if Julaybib consummated his worldly marriage or not?

[A m e n r i a]

What is the Muslim world's views on "involuntarily celibate" people so far as that situation and solutions go? I ask because I saw the Incel thread that got locked on here the other day and thought that it was quite a pity to see. On an Incel forum I see some if not most of them, mistakenly believe that Islam is supposed to "put women in their place." It's quite toxic.

I've come to notice that in non-Muslim circles, that the fact that Islam has polygyny in it (although limited to 4 wives) and has the "72 virgins in heaven" trope and the taking of women into sex slaves in war/battle, that this is used to trash/criticize Islam but figure that Islam has rebuttals or defenses to that so far as why it is morally good or just for their context?

Lastly, would Julaybib be Islam's closest equivalent to an Incel? The story I read is that he was poor and ugly and nobody cared about him except for Muhammad, and the Prophet personally intervened to get Julaybib married and got donations to him to make it happen, but that he died in battle afterwards and went to heaven. Do we know if Julaybib consummated his worldly marriage or not?

1. I don't think there's anything unique about our approach towards incels. This is why the redpill community exists. It's a secular community anyone can join, and we promote accountability and self improvement.

A lot of incels are narcissistic, thinking they deserve women when they're unwilling to even understand them. The first step to going redpill is realizing your flaws and it's those flaws that keep you behind in life, romantic or otherwise, not the women. After realizing your flaws, you should try to understand how women see the dating market and what they value, while working on yourself not for them, but for yourself. The sense of accomplishment, along with humility and understanding washes away all that resentment you bottle up.

I'm saying this as a former incel myself. Years ago I would've blamed women for all my problems, but thank God, I managed to find the redpill community, and here I am, happily dating a wonderful Chinese lady.

2. If we're being completely technical, everything moral is so because God says so. However, if you want a more human answer, I can provide three answers off the top of my head. Firstly, there's a chance that your first wife turns out to be infertile, so the only way you can continue your bloodline is by having a child from someone else. Secondly, by and large, men, by nature, have a higher sex drive and cannot get pregnant. If a woman has multiple husbands, it would be difficult (in the past) to determine the father, but when a man has multiple wives, it's more obvious who the father is. Lastly, it's about accountability. If you were married and you had a mistress who got pregnant, you can leave her anytime and she'd can be left with nothing to support the child. With marriage, if you want to divorce your wife, you'd have to pay child support, which increases the chance of the child's survival. There's also a historical context, but that may or may not be relevant, so I won't go into it unless you want me to.

Also, the 72 virgins thing is mostly a foreign meme. In reality, the number isn't fixed and you can end up with more or less depending on your deeds.

3. I'm gonna let someone else answer this, I'm not too familiar with the story.

[Prima Scriptura]

What is the Muslim world's views on "involuntarily celibate" people so far as that situation and solutions go? I ask because I saw the Incel thread that got locked on here the other day and thought that it was quite a pity to see. On an Incel forum I see some if not most of them, mistakenly believe that Islam is supposed to "put women in their place." It's quite toxic.

I've come to notice that in non-Muslim circles, that the fact that Islam has polygyny in it (although limited to 4 wives) and has the "72 virgins in heaven" trope and the taking of women into sex slaves in war/battle, that this is used to trash/criticize Islam but figure that Islam has rebuttals or defenses to that so far as why it is morally good or just for their context?

Lastly, would Julaybib be Islam's closest equivalent to an Incel? The story I read is that he was poor and ugly and nobody cared about him except for Muhammad, and the Prophet personally intervened to get Julaybib married and got donations to him to make it happen, but that he died in battle afterwards and went to heaven. Do we know if Julaybib consummated his worldly marriage or not?

1. I don't think there's anything unique about our approach towards incels. This is why the redpill community exists. It's a secular community anyone can join, and we promote accountability and self improvement.

A lot of incels are narcissistic, thinking they deserve women when they're unwilling to even understand them. The first step to going redpill is realizing your flaws and it's those flaws that keep you behind in life, romantic or otherwise, not the women. After realizing your flaws, you should try to understand how women see the dating market and what they value, while working on yourself not for them, but for yourself. The sense of accomplishment, along with humility and understanding washes away all that resentment you bottle up.

I'm saying this as a former incel myself. Years ago I would've blamed women for all my problems, but thank God, I managed to find the redpill community, and here I am, happily dating a wonderful Chinese lady.

2. If we're being completely technical, everything moral is so because God says so. However, if you want a more human answer, I can provide three answers off the top of my head. Firstly, there's a chance that your first wife turns out to be infertile, so the only way you can continue your bloodline is by having a child from someone else. Secondly, by and large, men, by nature, have a higher sex drive and cannot get pregnant. If a woman has multiple husbands, it would be difficult (in the past) to determine the father, but when a man has multiple wives, it's more obvious who the father is. Lastly, it's about accountability. If you were married and you had a mistress who got pregnant, you can leave her anytime and she'd can be left with nothing to support the child. With marriage, if you want to divorce your wife, you'd have to pay child support, which increases the chance of the child's survival. There's also a historical context, but that may or may not be relevant, so I won't go into it unless you want me to.

Also, the 72 virgins thing is mostly a foreign meme. In reality, the number isn't fixed and you can end up with more or less depending on your deeds.

3. I'm gonna let someone else answer this, I'm not too familiar with the story.

Do Muslims believe that God calls some people to celibacy? I’m not talking about incels. I’m talking about people that voluntarily commit themselves to celibacy because they believe that is what God wants from them

[A m e n r i a]

1. I don't think there's anything unique about our approach towards incels. This is why the redpill community exists. It's a secular community anyone can join, and we promote accountability and self improvement.

A lot of incels are narcissistic, thinking they deserve women when they're unwilling to even understand them. The first step to going redpill is realizing your flaws and it's those flaws that keep you behind in life, romantic or otherwise, not the women. After realizing your flaws, you should try to understand how women see the dating market and what they value, while working on yourself not for them, but for yourself. The sense of accomplishment, along with humility and understanding washes away all that resentment you bottle up.

I'm saying this as a former incel myself. Years ago I would've blamed women for all my problems, but thank God, I managed to find the redpill community, and here I am, happily dating a wonderful Chinese lady.

2. If we're being completely technical, everything moral is so because God says so. However, if you want a more human answer, I can provide three answers off the top of my head. Firstly, there's a chance that your first wife turns out to be infertile, so the only way you can continue your bloodline is by having a child from someone else. Secondly, by and large, men, by nature, have a higher sex drive and cannot get pregnant. If a woman has multiple husbands, it would be difficult (in the past) to determine the father, but when a man has multiple wives, it's more obvious who the father is. Lastly, it's about accountability. If you were married and you had a mistress who got pregnant, you can leave her anytime and she'd can be left with nothing to support the child. With marriage, if you want to divorce your wife, you'd have to pay child support, which increases the chance of the child's survival. There's also a historical context, but that may or may not be relevant, so I won't go into it unless you want me to.

Also, the 72 virgins thing is mostly a foreign meme. In reality, the number isn't fixed and you can end up with more or less depending on your deeds.

3. I'm gonna let someone else answer this, I'm not too familiar with the story.

Do Muslims believe that God calls some people to celibacy? I’m not talking about incels. I’m talking about people that voluntarily commit themselves to celibacy because they believe that is what God wants from them

Well, Scriptura, if you want scripture, then you'd be right. Whether or not this still applies depends on who you ask.

[Saiwania]

There's also a historical context, but that may or may not be relevant, so I won't go into it unless you want me to.

History would be good, I'm partially all about wanting such knowledge. The past is like a story, only it really happened and can be verified.

In a secular sense, slavery of all sorts in general; has fallen out of fashion in nearly all of the world and has come to be seen as immoral broadly speaking. But my understanding is that Islam doesn't have to condone any slavery in practice, but that it perhaps had its own reasons for why Muslims allowed for sex slavery of certain women to happen in specific contexts at various times in history, like when ISIS rampaged across Syria and Iraq before the fortunes of war turned against them?

[Prima Scriptura]

Is there any good articles about the concept of satan in Islam. I just have a couple of
questions. First is does satan tempt mankind to disobey God, and the second is does satan have dominion over hell?

[Biladu Al Rafidayn]

Is there any good articles about the concept of satan in Islam. I just have a couple of
questions. First is does satan tempt mankind to disobey God, and the second is does satan have dominion over hell?

I am not sure about the articles, but I will try to answer your questions.

1- Yes.

2- No. Satan is going to hell, and he is trying to drag down all of humanity with him, but he does not have dominion over it

[Insaanistan]

Is there any good articles about the concept of satan in Islam. I just have a couple of
questions. First is does satan tempt mankind to disobey God, and the second is does satan have dominion over hell?

1. Satan is essentially the ringleader of a number of jinn and people who attempt to persuade us to do wrong. However, they specifically want us to do wrong to the point that we think we’ve done so much wrong that there’s no point in repenting, or do so much wrong that we end up abandoning our faith entirely, stuff of that sort.

2. No, he doesn’t have dominion over hell. Satan is just one of the prisoners who will be there.
To sum up why Satan tempts us and is going to hell, he knows he screwed up by disobeying God like that, but he’s intent on taking us down with him, because he sees us as inferior beings and so, therefore, if he’s going to hell, we definitely should be.

[Insaanistan]

1. I don't think there's anything unique about our approach towards incels. This is why the redpill community exists. It's a secular community anyone can join, and we promote accountability and self improvement.

A lot of incels are narcissistic, thinking they deserve women when they're unwilling to even understand them. The first step to going redpill is realizing your flaws and it's those flaws that keep you behind in life, romantic or otherwise, not the women. After realizing your flaws, you should try to understand how women see the dating market and what they value, while working on yourself not for them, but for yourself. The sense of accomplishment, along with humility and understanding washes away all that resentment you bottle up.

I'm saying this as a former incel myself. Years ago I would've blamed women for all my problems, but thank God, I managed to find the redpill community, and here I am, happily dating a wonderful Chinese lady.

2. If we're being completely technical, everything moral is so because God says so. However, if you want a more human answer, I can provide three answers off the top of my head. Firstly, there's a chance that your first wife turns out to be infertile, so the only way you can continue your bloodline is by having a child from someone else. Secondly, by and large, men, by nature, have a higher sex drive and cannot get pregnant. If a woman has multiple husbands, it would be difficult (in the past) to determine the father, but when a man has multiple wives, it's more obvious who the father is. Lastly, it's about accountability. If you were married and you had a mistress who got pregnant, you can leave her anytime and she'd can be left with nothing to support the child. With marriage, if you want to divorce your wife, you'd have to pay child support, which increases the chance of the child's survival. There's also a historical context, but that may or may not be relevant, so I won't go into it unless you want me to.

Also, the 72 virgins thing is mostly a foreign meme. In reality, the number isn't fixed and you can end up with more or less depending on your deeds.

3. I'm gonna let someone else answer this, I'm not too familiar with the story.

Do Muslims believe that God calls some people to celibacy? I’m not talking about incels. I’m talking about people that voluntarily commit themselves to celibacy because they believe that is what God wants from them

Broadly, Muslims believe that engaging in intercourse (within the boundaries of marriage, mind you) is actually an act of worship. There are some Sufi orders where mystics would engage in celibacy, sure, but those were pretty much a minority.

Additionally, the vast majority do (and historically) have argued it’s best for gay men to simply remain celibate to avoid sodomy (the Islamic prohibition is less against sodomy itself and more against any an*l intercourse of any king for anyone straight or otherwise) rather than them marrying a woman.

[Insaanistan]

There's also a historical context, but that may or may not be relevant, so I won't go into it unless you want me to.

History would be good, I'm partially all about wanting such knowledge. The past is like a story, only it really happened and can be verified.

In a secular sense, slavery of all sorts in general; has fallen out of fashion in nearly all of the world and has come to be seen as immoral broadly speaking. But my understanding is that Islam doesn't have to condone any slavery in practice, but that it perhaps had its own reasons for why Muslims allowed for sex slavery of certain women to happen in specific contexts at various times in history, like when ISIS rampaged across Syria and Iraq before the fortunes of war turned against them?

Islam itself (and the Prophet pbuh) is incredibly anti-slavery, but as slavery was integral to the economies of so many regions, people just kept doing it, though they generally did start treating slaves “better” (as if that makes up for it).

When ISIS engaged in its sex slavery, it justified it by saying that they were only making Christians, Yazidis and (IIRC) Shiās sex slaves, and in their twisted ideology, those groups are “not Muslims” and therefore its “totally fine”. Muslim scholars around the world responded by condemning this and issuing a fatwa affirming that Islam is anti-slavery.

[Prima Scriptura]

History would be good, I'm partially all about wanting such knowledge. The past is like a story, only it really happened and can be verified.

In a secular sense, slavery of all sorts in general; has fallen out of fashion in nearly all of the world and has come to be seen as immoral broadly speaking. But my understanding is that Islam doesn't have to condone any slavery in practice, but that it perhaps had its own reasons for why Muslims allowed for sex slavery of certain women to happen in specific contexts at various times in history, like when ISIS rampaged across Syria and Iraq before the fortunes of war turned against them?

Islam itself (and the Prophet pbuh) is incredibly anti-slavery, but as slavery was integral to the economies of so many regions, people just kept doing it, though they generally did start treating slaves “better” (as if that makes up for it).

When ISIS engaged in its sex slavery, it justified it by saying that they were only making Christians, Yazidis and (IIRC) Shiās sex slaves, and in their twisted ideology, those groups are “not Muslims” and therefore its “totally fine”. Muslim scholars around the world responded by condemning this and issuing a fatwa affirming that Islam is anti-slavery.

I would add that slavery depicted in the Bible and the Koran is different from the chattel slavery we saw much latter. This is why most modern translations of the Bible uses "servant" rather than "slave"

[Insaanistan]

Islam itself (and the Prophet pbuh) is incredibly anti-slavery, but as slavery was integral to the economies of so many regions, people just kept doing it, though they generally did start treating slaves “better” (as if that makes up for it).

When ISIS engaged in its sex slavery, it justified it by saying that they were only making Christians, Yazidis and (IIRC) Shiās sex slaves, and in their twisted ideology, those groups are “not Muslims” and therefore its “totally fine”. Muslim scholars around the world responded by condemning this and issuing a fatwa affirming that Islam is anti-slavery.

I would add that slavery depicted in the Bible and the Koran is different from the chattel slavery we saw much latter. This is why most modern translations of the Bible uses "servant" rather than "slave"

Quite true.

[Insaanistan]

This distracts quite a bit from the discussion at hand, but after going back to some previous posts I made over the years in this thread and others, I’d just like to ask:

Why in God’s name did anybody let me speak (or rather type)?

The broad strokes of my opinions haven’t changed, sure, but I was still a very idealistic, stubborn & hot tempered 13/14 year old (I can’t remember exactly how old I was when I started using NationStates) with access to the internet and being exposed (albeit digitally) to people who regarded his religion as evil if not the people themselves evil as well, fascists and just broadly right wingers, anarchism, and just opinions he hadn’t even heard of let along any understanding of.

[The Alma Mater]

Islam itself (and the Prophet pbuh) is incredibly anti-slavery, but as slavery was integral to the economies of so many regions, people just kept doing it, though they generally did start treating slaves “better” (as if that makes up for it).

When ISIS engaged in its sex slavery, it justified it by saying that they were only making Christians, Yazidis and (IIRC) Shiās sex slaves, and in their twisted ideology, those groups are “not Muslims” and therefore its “totally fine”. Muslim scholars around the world responded by condemning this and issuing a fatwa affirming that Islam is anti-slavery.

I would add that slavery depicted in the Bible and the Koran is different from the chattel slavery we saw much latter. This is why most modern translations of the Bible uses "servant" rather than "slave"

That is a modern take. At the time, most Christians did not only deem chattel slavery perfectly acceptable - many even invented new Bible interpretations to say it was required. The mormons in particular were creative in this regard.

So what we can learn from this is that the interpretation of what is or isn't good changes over time.