NATION

PASSWORD

Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What denomination of Islam are you part of?

Sunni
223
46%
Salafi
14
3%
Shi'a
41
8%
Qur'ani
11
2%
Ahmadi
5
1%
IbaaDi
9
2%
Sufi (either Sunni or Shi'a)
30
6%
Non-Denominational
76
16%
Other
78
16%
 
Total votes : 487

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North Washington Republic
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Postby North Washington Republic » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:46 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
If Islam or other religions are true then they would though.


I mean, in Christianity's case not really.

The narrative of Christianity is pretty exclusively humanity's relationship to God. I don't think aliens would even have original sin, and so no need for any of the sacraments.


Didn’t Paul VI say that missionaries should accompany astronauts so they can convert other live forms?
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:47 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
If Islam or other religions are true then they would though.


I mean, in Christianity's case not really.

The narrative of Christianity is pretty exclusively humanity's relationship to God. I don't think aliens would even have original sin, and so no need for any of the sacraments.


Sorry, meant Islam and non-Christian religions.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:49 am

North Washington Republic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I mean, in Christianity's case not really.

The narrative of Christianity is pretty exclusively humanity's relationship to God. I don't think aliens would even have original sin, and so no need for any of the sacraments.


Didn’t Paul VI say that missionaries should accompany astronauts so they can convert other live forms?


I never heard that.

I mean, it sounds very fun. But how would aliens have sin (at least, as we understand it)? They're not related to Adam.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Diarcesia
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Postby Diarcesia » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:53 am

Salus Maior wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:
Didn’t Paul VI say that missionaries should accompany astronauts so they can convert other live forms?


I never heard that.

I mean, it sounds very fun. But how would aliens have sin (at least, as we understand it)? They're not related to Adam.

Unless aliens have their own version of the original sin that caused them to be separate from God? Maybe Jesus/Mahdi hasn't returned yet because he had to planet-hop?

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Vlad Tepes Stan Account
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Postby Vlad Tepes Stan Account » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:34 pm

Suriyanakhon wrote:
Vlad Tepes Stan Account wrote:Aliens wouldn't need Islam just like they wouldn't need Christianity or any of Earth's religions.


If Islam or other religions are true then they would though.

No they wouldn't. These religions are true for humanity because of our specific relationship and history with God. Aliens would have their own relationship and history with God and such their religion(s) would be tailored for that.

Eg. Christ died for the sins of mankind because of the Fall of Man. Aliens may not have had their own Fall or if they did how they dealt with it could be radically different.
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:10 pm

Vlad Tepes Stan Account wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
If Islam or other religions are true then they would though.

No they wouldn't. These religions are true for humanity because of our specific relationship and history with God. Aliens would have their own relationship and history with God and such their religion(s) would be tailored for that.

Eg. Christ died for the sins of mankind because of the Fall of Man. Aliens may not have had their own Fall or if they did how they dealt with it could be radically different.


Okay, but the Fall is an exclusively Christian idea which isn't shared with other religions. Islam considers itself universal, with non-human beings such as animals and djinns being Muslim too. Hinduism and Buddhism have the concept of infinite worlds with their own inhabitants who transmigrate, so of course it would be relevant to them.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:03 pm

Suriyanakhon wrote:
Vlad Tepes Stan Account wrote:No they wouldn't. These religions are true for humanity because of our specific relationship and history with God. Aliens would have their own relationship and history with God and such their religion(s) would be tailored for that.

Eg. Christ died for the sins of mankind because of the Fall of Man. Aliens may not have had their own Fall or if they did how they dealt with it could be radically different.


Okay, but the Fall is an exclusively Christian idea which isn't shared with other religions. Islam considers itself universal, with non-human beings such as animals and djinns being Muslim too. Hinduism and Buddhism have the concept of infinite worlds with their own inhabitants who transmigrate, so of course it would be relevant to them.


Do humans have a special place in Islam amongst all creation? I can imagine an alien race of squidbeings being unhappy if they are not "made in Allahs image".
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:11 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
Okay, but the Fall is an exclusively Christian idea which isn't shared with other religions. Islam considers itself universal, with non-human beings such as animals and djinns being Muslim too. Hinduism and Buddhism have the concept of infinite worlds with their own inhabitants who transmigrate, so of course it would be relevant to them.


Do humans have a special place in Islam amongst all creation? I can imagine an alien race of squidbeings being unhappy if they are not "made in Allahs image".


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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:34 am

Diarcesia wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I never heard that.

I mean, it sounds very fun. But how would aliens have sin (at least, as we understand it)? They're not related to Adam.

Unless aliens have their own version of the original sin that caused them to be separate from God? Maybe Jesus/Mahdi hasn't returned yet because he had to planet-hop?


That seems pretty silly.

But regardless it seems like a waste of time to speculate.
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Alkhilafa Rasullalah
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Postby Alkhilafa Rasullalah » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:46 am

Galimencia wrote:The most interesting thing about Muslims is that, the man whom they consider to be the most 'perfect' individual to ever exist, was in fact a military commander who killed people and a man who married a total of 12 wives. I am not going into whether these acts were justified or not, but what I am saying is that we do not usually include 'violence' when we talk about good virtues in a man. I think, this pretty much explains the inherent violent nature of some of the more extremist Muslims like the Talibans.

military heroism is considered a virtue in America society and even traditional British society (these days they don’t care in the UK)
Last edited by Alkhilafa Rasullalah on Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:42 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
Okay, but the Fall is an exclusively Christian idea which isn't shared with other religions. Islam considers itself universal, with non-human beings such as animals and djinns being Muslim too. Hinduism and Buddhism have the concept of infinite worlds with their own inhabitants who transmigrate, so of course it would be relevant to them.


Do humans have a special place in Islam amongst all creation? I can imagine an alien race of squidbeings being unhappy if they are not "made in Allahs image".

If we encounter other self-aware intelligent species and agree amongst ourselves they are, "Made in God's/Allah's Image" could be reinterpreted as being given consciousness or something.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:25 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
Okay, but the Fall is an exclusively Christian idea which isn't shared with other religions. Islam considers itself universal, with non-human beings such as animals and djinns being Muslim too. Hinduism and Buddhism have the concept of infinite worlds with their own inhabitants who transmigrate, so of course it would be relevant to them.


Do humans have a special place in Islam amongst all creation? I can imagine an alien race of squidbeings being unhappy if they are not "made in Allahs image".


Humans are on the same level as jinn, pretty much.

Who knows? If there are extra terrestrial beings with sentience, perhaps they’re jinn? Or some other form of life?


Also, humans in Islam aren’t exactly “made in God’s image”.
Last edited by Insaanistan on Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:31 am

Galimencia wrote:The most interesting thing about Muslims is that, the man whom they consider to be the most 'perfect' individual to ever exist, was in fact a military commander who killed people and a man who married a total of 12 wives. I am not going into whether these acts were justified or not, but what I am saying is that we do not usually include 'violence' when we talk about good virtues in a man. I think, this pretty much explains the inherent violent nature of some of the more extremist Muslims like the Talibans.

13 wives throughout his entire 63 year life (keep in mind lifespans were not what they were today, and there was a heck of a lot more disease and the like back then). Even the majority of non-Muslim scholars on Islam and its history I’ve heard speak or read the words of state Muhammad (S)’s aim was not war, and it wasn’t something he enjoyed. Heck, in the Islamic rules of war he laid out, one of them is “Do not hope you encounter your enemy.”

Additionally, the Taliban are opposed by virtually all Afghans, the vast majority of whom are Muslim. In the words of Mehdi Hasan
“If Islam is truly a violent warlike religion, then why aren’t the rest of doing it? Why is it such a tiny minority of Muslims who are interpreting their religion in this way?”

The vast majority of surveyed Muslims condemned acts of terror. The minority that didn’t cited political reasons (though keep in mind, Islamist exists).
Last edited by Insaanistan on Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:35 am

North Washington Republic wrote:I’ve heard that Islam teaches that cats are God’s favorite animal and they’re the only non-humans that are aware of God’s existence. Is there any truth to this?


Islam believes all animals are Muslim and that there are both Muslim jinn and non-Muslim jinn.
Cats are however, held in high regard in Islam, as they were in Ancient Egypt. Cats are considered incredibly clean and preferable pets to have, and some cultures believe evil jinn or other spirits such as bori are afraid of cats.
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Lady Victory
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Postby Lady Victory » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:19 am

Insaanistan wrote:
Galimencia wrote:The most interesting thing about Muslims is that, the man whom they consider to be the most 'perfect' individual to ever exist, was in fact a military commander who killed people and a man who married a total of 12 wives. I am not going into whether these acts were justified or not, but what I am saying is that we do not usually include 'violence' when we talk about good virtues in a man. I think, this pretty much explains the inherent violent nature of some of the more extremist Muslims like the Talibans.

13 wives throughout his entire 63 year life (keep in mind lifespans were not what they were today, and there was a heck of a lot more disease and the like back then). Even the majority of non-Muslim scholars on Islam and its history I’ve heard speak or read the words of state Muhammad (S)’s aim was not war, and it wasn’t something he enjoyed. Heck, in the Islamic rules of war he laid out, one of them is “Do not hope you encounter your enemy.”

Additionally, the Taliban are opposed by virtually all Afghans, the vast majority of whom are Muslim. In the words of Mehdi Hasan
“If Islam is truly a violent warlike religion, then why aren’t the rest of doing it? Why is it such a tiny minority of Muslims who are interpreting their religion in this way?”

The vast majority of surveyed Muslims condemned acts of terror. The minority that didn’t cited political reasons (though keep in mind, Islamist exists).


This entire post is disingenuous.

If Muhammad was the peace-loving person Islam claims he was he wouldn't have been a fucking warlord who waged wars of conquest and aggression against his neighbors while committing genocide against his opponents.

Fucking Hell, who is gullible enough to believe this nonsense?
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The V I C
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Postby The V I C » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:27 am

North Washington Republic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I mean, in Christianity's case not really.

The narrative of Christianity is pretty exclusively humanity's relationship to God. I don't think aliens would even have original sin, and so no need for any of the sacraments.


Didn’t Paul VI say that missionaries should accompany astronauts so they can convert other live forms?


In christian lore, Eve bit the forbidden fruit. Since the reptoids did not, its safe to assume they did not fall out of god's grace and therefore do not need saving.
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The V I C
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Postby The V I C » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:31 am

Lady Victory wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:13 wives throughout his entire 63 year life (keep in mind lifespans were not what they were today, and there was a heck of a lot more disease and the like back then). Even the majority of non-Muslim scholars on Islam and its history I’ve heard speak or read the words of state Muhammad (S)’s aim was not war, and it wasn’t something he enjoyed. Heck, in the Islamic rules of war he laid out, one of them is “Do not hope you encounter your enemy.”

Additionally, the Taliban are opposed by virtually all Afghans, the vast majority of whom are Muslim. In the words of Mehdi Hasan
“If Islam is truly a violent warlike religion, then why aren’t the rest of doing it? Why is it such a tiny minority of Muslims who are interpreting their religion in this way?”

The vast majority of surveyed Muslims condemned acts of terror. The minority that didn’t cited political reasons (though keep in mind, Islamist exists).


This entire post is disingenuous.

If Muhammad was the peace-loving person Islam claims he was he wouldn't have been a fucking warlord who waged wars of conquest and aggression against his neighbors while committing genocide against his opponents.

Fucking Hell, who is gullible enough to believe this nonsense?


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A m e n r i a
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Postby A m e n r i a » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:51 pm

This raises some questions:

1. If God sent prophets to all peoples, does this extend to aliens? If so...
2. Do their religions taught from these prophets count as a sect of Islam?
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Dowaesk
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Postby Dowaesk » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:38 am

Lady Victory wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:13 wives throughout his entire 63 year life (keep in mind lifespans were not what they were today, and there was a heck of a lot more disease and the like back then). Even the majority of non-Muslim scholars on Islam and its history I’ve heard speak or read the words of state Muhammad (S)’s aim was not war, and it wasn’t something he enjoyed. Heck, in the Islamic rules of war he laid out, one of them is “Do not hope you encounter your enemy.”

Additionally, the Taliban are opposed by virtually all Afghans, the vast majority of whom are Muslim. In the words of Mehdi Hasan
“If Islam is truly a violent warlike religion, then why aren’t the rest of doing it? Why is it such a tiny minority of Muslims who are interpreting their religion in this way?”

The vast majority of surveyed Muslims condemned acts of terror. The minority that didn’t cited political reasons (though keep in mind, Islamist exists).


This entire post is disingenuous.

If Muhammad was the peace-loving person Islam claims he was he wouldn't have been a fucking warlord who waged wars of conquest and aggression against his neighbors while committing genocide against his opponents.

Fucking Hell, who is gullible enough to believe this nonsense?

Fucking Hell, who is gullible enough to believe this nonsense that you believe?
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Postby Redeemed Britannia » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:56 am

Dowaesk wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:
This entire post is disingenuous.

If Muhammad was the peace-loving person Islam claims he was he wouldn't have been a fucking warlord who waged wars of conquest and aggression against his neighbors while committing genocide against his opponents.

Fucking Hell, who is gullible enough to believe this nonsense?

Fucking Hell, who is gullible enough to believe this nonsense that you believe?

Mohammed was a warlord who did wage wars of conquest though? How exactly do you think the first Caliphate came to be? And he did through the sword wipe out entire populations in ways that would, if done right now, be classified as genocides.
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:23 am

Lady Victory wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:13 wives throughout his entire 63 year life (keep in mind lifespans were not what they were today, and there was a heck of a lot more disease and the like back then). Even the majority of non-Muslim scholars on Islam and its history I’ve heard speak or read the words of state Muhammad (S)’s aim was not war, and it wasn’t something he enjoyed. Heck, in the Islamic rules of war he laid out, one of them is “Do not hope you encounter your enemy.”

Additionally, the Taliban are opposed by virtually all Afghans, the vast majority of whom are Muslim. In the words of Mehdi Hasan
“If Islam is truly a violent warlike religion, then why aren’t the rest of doing it? Why is it such a tiny minority of Muslims who are interpreting their religion in this way?”

The vast majority of surveyed Muslims condemned acts of terror. The minority that didn’t cited political reasons (though keep in mind, Islamist exists).


This entire post is disingenuous.

If Muhammad was the peace-loving person Islam claims he was he wouldn't have been a fucking warlord who waged wars of conquest and aggression against his neighbors while committing genocide against his opponents.

Fucking Hell, who is gullible enough to believe this nonsense?


You commit the fallacy of giving two choices: pacifism or being a violent warmonger.

Additionally, no, Muhammad (S) did not commit genocide.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:25 am

Insaanistan wrote:You commit the fallacy of giving two choices: pacifism or being a violent warmonger.


In the real world there really isn't a third option tbh, at least not in the pre-modern age.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:29 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:You commit the fallacy of giving two choices: pacifism or being a violent warmonger.


In the real world there really isn't a third option tbh, at least not in the pre-modern age.

Hell even the laudable Persians were violent warmongers, kinda had to be to secure and stabilize Mesopotamia.
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Redeemed Britannia
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Postby Redeemed Britannia » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:43 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:You commit the fallacy of giving two choices: pacifism or being a violent warmonger.


In the real world there really isn't a third option tbh, at least not in the pre-modern age.

Eh, that's not necessarily true. Not being pacifist doesn't necessitate going on conquest sprees and full blown vae victis style massacres of civilians afterwards like Mohammad and his successors did. But frankly what you can't do is be an Empire without being a warmonger, and the Caliphates were Empires. All of them.
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Insaanistan
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Insaanistan » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:24 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:You commit the fallacy of giving two choices: pacifism or being a violent warmonger.


In the real world there really isn't a third option tbh, at least not in the pre-modern age.

War mongers don’t usually get Gandhi to absolutely love them.
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