Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Diarcesia]

You know, would it fit to call a rule under the Islamic system "apartheid"? By definition, apartheid means separation or apartness, and under Islam, we have different rules for different members of society, with one group being positioned as "better" than the other, state-mandated separations that otherwise won't exist under secular systems. Even if the de-facto quality of life itself isn't actually that bad for everyone involved.

It goes without saying that Muslims, being the ones calling the shots, will do all they can to maintain their privileged position in society. Hence non-Muslims will become second-class citizens.

For the non-Muslim, it is not mutually-exclusive that they will maintain their quality of life, and at the same time, don't have an equal amount of political say in the government.

[Resilient Acceleration]

Considering Indonesia's form as an inherently multiethnic, secular empire despite being majority Muslim (at least until technological connectivity and infrastructure advancements allows for us to move to the direction of a nation-state) and is thus always being shadowed by identitarian movements primarily Islamism fundamentalism, that's the point, but-

but?

Nah, it's just a rhetorical form of speech. My point is that a sharia-based national system and Indonesia as it stands today will never mix, and state institutions should "do things" to make sure of that.

[Immortan Khan]

Unless said non-Muslim has been a Muslim at some point in his or her life. If that is the case, religious law—regarding apostasy—requires that non-Muslim to be killed.

So no, sharia applies to non-Muslims when it's about terrorising Muslims to stay in the faith even if they don't want to.



It's very telling that all this lovey-dovey tolerance stuff is before Islam was the dominant military and political power in the Arabian Peninsula.

Also, while I'm certain Ibn al-Talla was a very enlightened figure in his time, I'm fairly certain he made no such observation—the man lived approximately four centuries after Muhammad's death. He didn't observe, he speculated according, I hope at the very least, to the historiography left to him by Muhammad's contemporaries.

It says he observed there was a lack of credible evidence for this.

Additionally, I’d much appreciate it if you’d actually provide evidence of someone being executed simply for changing their religion away from Islam.

Aurelius and Natalia, Saint Abraham of Bulgaria, Saint Abo of Tiflis, Saints Nunilo and Alodia who were children to boot, Saint Qays al-Ghassani, Abdul Rahman was forced to seek asylum after being threatened with the death penalty, A number of the Cordoba martyrs to be frank. Should I keep going? I can start to also use how this punishment and how violent reactions to conversions are, lead to converts being murdered by their own families. Such as the case about a week ago when a woman who converted to Orthodox Christianity was strangled to death by her own son.

[Resilient Acceleration]

You know, would it fit to call a rule under the Islamic system "apartheid"? By definition, apartheid means separation or apartness, and under Islam, we have different rules for different members of society, with one group being positioned as "better" than the other, state-mandated separations that otherwise won't exist under secular systems. Even if the de-facto quality of life itself isn't actually that bad for everyone involved.

It goes without saying that Muslims, being the ones calling the shots, will do all they can to maintain their privileged position in society. Hence non-Muslims will become second-class citizens.

For the non-Muslim, it is not mutually-exclusive that they will maintain their quality of life, and at the same time, don't have an equal amount of political say in the government.

Obligatory shoutout to Malaysia's constitution-enshrined institutional racism that apparently still fails to make the Malay majority equal their Chinese brethren in terms of wealth.

[Immortan Khan]

You know, would it fit to call a rule under the Islamic system "apartheid"? By definition, apartheid means separation or apartness, and under Islam, we have different rules for different members of society, with one group being positioned as "better" than the other, state-mandated separations that otherwise won't exist under secular systems. Even if the de-facto quality of life itself isn't actually that bad for everyone involved.

Yes. There were also other various forms of discrimination. Non-Muslims had to bow their heads whenever walking past a Muslim, if one member of a family converted they received all property in terms of inheritance, non-Muslims were forced to give up their seats if a Muslim wanted it, etc.

[Diarcesia]

You know, would it fit to call a rule under the Islamic system "apartheid"? By definition, apartheid means separation or apartness, and under Islam, we have different rules for different members of society, with one group being positioned as "better" than the other, state-mandated separations that otherwise won't exist under secular systems. Even if the de-facto quality of life itself isn't actually that bad for everyone involved.

Yes. There were also other various forms of discrimination. Non-Muslims had to bow their heads whenever walking past a Muslim, if one member of a family converted they received all property in terms of inheritance, non-Muslims were forced to give up their seats if a Muslim wanted it, etc.

Is it something that Islam requires, or something that a past influential ruler fancied having to make himself feel good?

[Washington Resistance Army]

It says he observed there was a lack of credible evidence for this.

Additionally, I’d much appreciate it if you’d actually provide evidence of someone being executed simply for changing their religion away from Islam.

Aurelius and Natalia, Saint Abraham of Bulgaria, Saint Abo of Tiflis, Saints Nunilo and Alodia who were children to boot, Saint Qays al-Ghassani, Abdul Rahman was forced to seek asylum after being threatened with the death penalty, A number of the Cordoba martyrs to be frank. Should I keep going? I can start to also use how this punishment and how violent reactions to conversions are, lead to converts being murdered by their own families. Such as the case about a week ago when a woman who converted to Orthodox Christianity was strangled to death by her own son.

It's really late for me so no sources atm but back in 2011 there was also a small pagan community in Syria that was all but wiped out by Sunni militants after fighting started on charges of apostasy. Iirc plenty of non-Muslim religious groups in Iraq and Syria have been subjected to it.

[Diarcesia]

Aurelius and Natalia, Saint Abraham of Bulgaria, Saint Abo of Tiflis, Saints Nunilo and Alodia who were children to boot, Saint Qays al-Ghassani, Abdul Rahman was forced to seek asylum after being threatened with the death penalty, A number of the Cordoba martyrs to be frank. Should I keep going? I can start to also use how this punishment and how violent reactions to conversions are, lead to converts being murdered by their own families. Such as the case about a week ago when a woman who converted to Orthodox Christianity was strangled to death by her own son.

It's really late for me so no sources atm but back in 2011 there was also a small pagan community in Syria that was all but wiped out by Sunni militants after fighting started on charges of apostasy. Iirc plenty of non-Muslim religious groups in Iraq and Syria have been subjected to it.

Pagan ex-Muslims or always pagans?

[Washington Resistance Army]

It's really late for me so no sources atm but back in 2011 there was also a small pagan community in Syria that was all but wiped out by Sunni militants after fighting started on charges of apostasy. Iirc plenty of non-Muslim religious groups in Iraq and Syria have been subjected to it.

Pagan ex-Muslims or always pagans?

The former, much like in the west there's communities in the Middle East that seek to revive pre-Islamic religions and Syria was sort of a hub for that. They had a pretty notable online presence at the time and that's also how we learned most of them were killed or forced to flee.

[Diarcesia]

Pagan ex-Muslims or always pagans?

The former, much like in the west there's communities in the Middle East that seek to revive pre-Islamic religions and Syria was sort of a hub for that. They had a pretty notable online presence at the time and that's also how we learned most of them were killed or forced to flee.

The real tragedy is that the attitudes persist to the present day. It's not like they are incapable of, you know, not doing that. As a comparison, I don't see Orthodox Jews stoning people for offenses where the Torah prescribes stoning.

[Diahon]

Pagan ex-Muslims or always pagans?

The former, much like in the west there's communities in the Middle East that seek to revive pre-Islamic religions and Syria was sort of a hub for that. They had a pretty notable online presence at the time and that's also how we learned most of them were killed or forced to flee.

assyrians?

[Redeemed Britannia]

You know, would it fit to call a rule under the Islamic system "apartheid"? By definition, apartheid means separation or apartness, and under Islam, we have different rules for different members of society, with one group being positioned as "better" than the other, state-mandated separations that otherwise won't exist under secular systems. Even if the de-facto quality of life itself isn't actually that bad for everyone involved.

Funny thing that there's different legal codes for different people based on (legally supposed to only be) religion and (in practice always also) race, funny that one religion has citizenship while everyone else is legally only tolerated, funny that at the start and before they go through the forced conversions thing Muslims are always a minority compared to the people of the Book (and other, less tolerated non-Muslims that usually get wiped out completely instead of becoming third-class citizens) and funny how said non-Muslims end up having their rights limited or completely deprived. A country under Islamic rule (not a country with Muslims, a country whose rules are based on Islam) is always an apartheid state unless they've already committed the genocide and gotten rid of the non-Muslim majority.

[Washington Resistance Army]

The former, much like in the west there's communities in the Middle East that seek to revive pre-Islamic religions and Syria was sort of a hub for that. They had a pretty notable online presence at the time and that's also how we learned most of them were killed or forced to flee.

assyrians?

Not in this particular case, though I do know there were some groups doing the same among the Assyrians. I'm not sure of what ever ended up happening to them in particular.

Terrible either way though, it's barbarism of the highest sort to kill someone over disagreements in faith.

[Immortan Khan]

Yes. There were also other various forms of discrimination. Non-Muslims had to bow their heads whenever walking past a Muslim, if one member of a family converted they received all property in terms of inheritance, non-Muslims were forced to give up their seats if a Muslim wanted it, etc.

Is it something that Islam requires, or something that a past influential ruler fancied having to make himself feel good?

Mostly the latter iirc. I believe it was Umar that instituted the rule about giving up seats.

[Immortan Khan]

Aurelius and Natalia, Saint Abraham of Bulgaria, Saint Abo of Tiflis, Saints Nunilo and Alodia who were children to boot, Saint Qays al-Ghassani, Abdul Rahman was forced to seek asylum after being threatened with the death penalty, A number of the Cordoba martyrs to be frank. Should I keep going? I can start to also use how this punishment and how violent reactions to conversions are, lead to converts being murdered by their own families. Such as the case about a week ago when a woman who converted to Orthodox Christianity was strangled to death by her own son.

It's really late for me so no sources atm but back in 2011 there was also a small pagan community in Syria that was all but wiped out by Sunni militants after fighting started on charges of apostasy. Iirc plenty of non-Muslim religious groups in Iraq and Syria have been subjected to it.

I'm sorry for their loss. May they have found peace.

[Diarcesia]

Anyone in the thread is free to correct me.

Funny thing that there's different legal codes for different people based on (legally supposed to only be) religion and (in practice always also) race

Because Christians want to be governed by their Christian law. Because Jews want to be governed by their Jewish law, etc. Granted, there is the secular law to govern inter-religious things that favor the Muslims, to the surprise of exactly zero people.

funny that one religion has citizenship while everyone else is legally only tolerated, funny that at the start and before they go through the forced conversions thing Muslims are always a minority compared to the people of the Book (and other, less tolerated non-Muslims that usually get wiped out completely instead of becoming third-class citizens) and funny how said non-Muslims end up having their rights limited or completely deprived.

What is their difference from their contemporaries that have a state religion?

A country under Islamic rule (not a country with Muslims, a country whose rules are based on Islam) is always an apartheid state unless they've already committed the genocide and gotten rid of the non-Muslim majority.

The apartheid-like governance is always a given. The genocides seem to be a thing at the earliest since the Mongol era.

[Immortan Khan]

What is their difference from their contemporaries that have a state religion?

The radicalness of Islam politically and legally. While Christianity has its stains, you can also find a lot of times when it acted ahead of its time.

[Diarcesia]

What is their difference from their contemporaries that have a state religion?

The radicalness of Islam politically and legally. While Christianity has its stains, you can also find a lot of times when it acted ahead of its time.

*Looks*

They're largely the same picture.

[Insaanistan]

It says he observed there was a lack of credible evidence for this.

Additionally, I’d much appreciate it if you’d actually provide evidence of someone being executed simply for changing their religion away from Islam.

Aurelius and Natalia, Saint Abraham of Bulgaria, Saint Abo of Tiflis, Saints Nunilo and Alodia who were children to boot, Saint Qays al-Ghassani, Abdul Rahman was forced to seek asylum after being threatened with the death penalty, A number of the Cordoba martyrs to be frank. Should I keep going? I can start to also use how this punishment and how violent reactions to conversions are, lead to converts being murdered by their own families. Such as the case about a week ago when a woman who converted to Orthodox Christianity was strangled to death by her own son.

I meant at the time of Muhammad (S), as Vistulange claimed that Muhammad (S)’s tolerance towards people who left was only when he was not in control of Arabia.

[Insaanistan]

It's really late for me so no sources atm but back in 2011 there was also a small pagan community in Syria that was all but wiped out by Sunni militants after fighting started on charges of apostasy. Iirc plenty of non-Muslim religious groups in Iraq and Syria have been subjected to it.

Pagan ex-Muslims or always pagans?

Might be both.

[Immortan Khan]

The radicalness of Islam politically and legally. While Christianity has its stains, you can also find a lot of times when it acted ahead of its time.

*Looks*

They're largely the same picture.

The punishment for sodomy in the 8th century Islamic world was death. In Christendom it was six months to a year of penance (six months for women, a year for men). You don't see a shift towards more extreme punishments until the later middle ages. It didn't become punishable by death in England until the reign of Henry VIII.

[Diarcesia]

*Looks*

They're largely the same picture.

The punishment for sodomy in the 8th century Islamic world was death. In Christendom it was six months to a year of penance (six months for women, a year for men)

.וְאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת-זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה — תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם. מוֹת יוּמָתוּ; דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם
"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed a detestable act: They shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

You don't see a shift towards more extreme punishments until the later middle ages. It didn't become punishable by death in England until the reign of Henry VIII.

Okay, it's fair that sodomy punishments in Christianity more reflect the culture of the place. The New Testament to my knowledge does not prescribe anything specific with regards to that. In England in particular, it paralleled the development of the Muslim world in the sense that they become stricter against such offenses.

[Diarcesia]

Pagan ex-Muslims or always pagans?

Might be both.

Injunctions against compunction suddenly don't matter to the perpetrators, eh?

[Insaanistan]

Might be both.

Injunctions against compunction suddenly don't matter to the perpetrators, eh?

…what?

[Immortan Khan]

The punishment for sodomy in the 8th century Islamic world was death. In Christendom it was six months to a year of penance (six months for women, a year for men)

.וְאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת-זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה — תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם. מוֹת יוּמָתוּ; דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם
"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed a detestable act: They shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

You don't see a shift towards more extreme punishments until the later middle ages. It didn't become punishable by death in England until the reign of Henry VIII.

Okay, it's fair that sodomy punishments in Christianity more reflect the culture of the place. The New Testament to my knowledge does not prescribe anything specific with regards to that. In England in particular, it paralleled the development of the Muslim world in the sense that they become stricter against such offenses.

I'm not sure why you're quoting Leviticus 20 considering that the way the OT is viewed in Christianity.

A lot of the radicalness of it was inspired by Islamic jurisprudence and views because of the renewed threat the Islamic world had become during the 16th and 17th centuries. Especially within Protestantism where there was a lot of diplomatic chatter and positive comparisons between the two. It's like how the Iconoclasm controversy in the Byzantine Empire was inspired by the Islamic conquests. The Islamic world has always been strict de jure.