Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Jolthig]

It's a sin as the Quran says

Yeah and when I pointed that out to someone I know he said "I am hungry. God will forgive this small transgression."

Small sins are still sins nonetheless which eventually lead to bigger sins.

[A m e n r i a]

What is your opinion of Muslims eating pork?

Because the amount Muslims doing that in Greece is both staggering and hilarious at the same time.

It's a sin as the Quran says

It's one of the worst, actually. Walk up to an Indonesian Muslim and ask him whether he's kissed his girlfriend. Then ask him whether he's bet on a football game before. Finally, ask him if he's ever eaten pork. He'll probably be all like "Hell no, that's crazy!"

Yeah and when I pointed that out to someone I know he said "I am hungry. God will forgive this small transgression."

Small sins are still sins nonetheless which eventually lead to bigger sins.

Except it's not small. That shite's major.

[Chularatchamontri]

1. Well then Imam Malik was wrong. I am not a Maliki so this does not matter too much to me. The first of those Hadiths means nothing, as there have been many messengers not just Muhammad and Isa. And the second clearly refers to them being there at the time. He was not dead, as the Quran states, but was not in the mortal realm either.

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81li_Canon
"During the First Buddhist Council, Ananda recited the Sutta Pitaka, and Upali recited the Vinaya Pitaka thirty years after the parinibbana of Gautama Buddha in Rajgir. The Arhats present accepted the recitations and henceforth the teachings were preserved orally by the Sangha."

1. You cant just say the sources I provided mean nothing when history proves you are wrong.

2. Very well. I'll look more into this matter.

One out of four of the Imams agreed with you, the others disagreed. I explained why those hadith were not proof of what you believed. History proves nothing in your favour here.

[Jolthig]

It's a sin as the Quran says

It's one of the worst, actually. Walk up to an Indonesian Muslim and ask him whether he's kissed his girlfriend. Then ask him whether he's bet on a football game before. Finally, ask him if he's ever eaten pork. He'll probably be all like "Hell no, that's crazy!"

Lol.

1. You cant just say the sources I provided mean nothing when history proves you are wrong.

2. Very well. I'll look more into this matter.

One out of four of the Imams agreed with you, the others disagreed. I explained why those hadith were not proof of what you believed. History proves nothing in your favour here.

No you haven't. Please provide the references on why I am wrong. And yes, it does as I've cited in many references tonight.

[Asherahan]

Yeah and when I pointed that out to someone I know he said "I am hungry. God will forgive this small transgression."

Astaghfirullah that is bad. I live in thailand pork is everywhere and i still abstain from it.

Well all in all most do eat chicken rather than pork. I assume some started eating pork because we Greeks like it and because they must have hardly cared about Islams edicts in the first place.

[Jolthig]

Astaghfirullah that is bad. I live in thailand pork is everywhere and i still abstain from it.

Well all in all most do eat chicken rather than pork. I assume some started eating pork because we Greeks like it and because they must have hardly cared about Islams edicts in the first place.

That and maybe not going to mosque much.

[East Azadistan]

It's a sin as the Quran says

It's one of the worst, actually. Walk up to an Indonesian Muslim and ask him whether he's kissed his girlfriend. Then ask him whether he's bet on a football game before. Finally, ask him if he's ever eaten pork. He'll probably be all like "Hell no, that's crazy!"

Small sins are still sins nonetheless which eventually lead to bigger sins.

Except it's not small. That shite's major.

also which Qur'an verse says kissing before marriage(as opposed to zinah) is a sin? I am not saying there isn't one but people often say that without giving me the Qur'anic evidence.

[Jolthig]

It's one of the worst, actually. Walk up to an Indonesian Muslim and ask him whether he's kissed his girlfriend. Then ask him whether he's bet on a football game before. Finally, ask him if he's ever eaten pork. He'll probably be all like "Hell no, that's crazy!"



Except it's not small. That shite's major.

also which Qur'an verse says kissing before marriage(as opposed to zinah) is a sin? I am not saying there isn't one but people often say that without giving me the Qur'anic evidence.

Generally, touching, hugging, and shaking hands with those of the opposite gender are in themselves sins. So yes, kissing is included.

[Chularatchamontri]

It's one of the worst, actually. Walk up to an Indonesian Muslim and ask him whether he's kissed his girlfriend. Then ask him whether he's bet on a football game before. Finally, ask him if he's ever eaten pork. He'll probably be all like "Hell no, that's crazy!"

Lol.

One out of four of the Imams agreed with you, the others disagreed. I explained why those hadith were not proof of what you believed. History proves nothing in your favour here.

No you haven't. Please provide the references on why I am wrong. And yes, it does as I've cited in many references tonight.

What do you want a reference for?

[Jolthig]

Lol.


No you haven't. Please provide the references on why I am wrong. And yes, it does as I've cited in many references tonight.

What do you want a reference for?

To counter my daleel.

[A m e n r i a]

It's one of the worst, actually. Walk up to an Indonesian Muslim and ask him whether he's kissed his girlfriend. Then ask him whether he's bet on a football game before. Finally, ask him if he's ever eaten pork. He'll probably be all like "Hell no, that's crazy!"



Except it's not small. That shite's major.

also which Qur'an verse says kissing before marriage(as opposed to zinah) is a sin? I am not saying there isn't one but people often say that without giving me the Qur'anic evidence.

Fundamentalists consider every act of romance as zina. Yes, including holding hands. Silly, I know.

[Jolthig]

also which Qur'an verse says kissing before marriage(as opposed to zinah) is a sin? I am not saying there isn't one but people often say that without giving me the Qur'anic evidence.

Fundamentalists consider every act of romance as zina. Yes, including holding hands. Silly, I know.

That's not just fundamentalists. That's also the "moderates".

I wouldn't say its zina right away though

[Chularatchamontri]

What do you want a reference for?

To counter my daleel.

On which claim?

[A m e n r i a]

Fundamentalists consider every act of romance as zina. Yes, including holding hands. Silly, I know.

That's not just fundamentalists. That's also the "moderates".

I wouldn't say its zina right away though

Oh? Please do elaborate.

[Jolthig]

To counter my daleel.

On which claim?

The ulama, hadith, and other references I provided to prove my case.

[Jolthig]

That's not just fundamentalists. That's also the "moderates".

I wouldn't say its zina right away though

Oh? Please do elaborate.

We ahmadis generally discourage relationships before/without marriage as it goes against Pardah.

[Chularatchamontri]

That's not just fundamentalists. That's also the "moderates".

I wouldn't say its zina right away though

Oh? Please do elaborate.

It is not Zina. But you do not do Zina without this first step, so most scholars condemn unnecessary physical contact with the opposite sex.

[Jolthig]

Oh? Please do elaborate.

It is not Zina. But you do not do Zina without this first step, so most scholars condemn unnecessary physical contact with the opposite sex.

Actually the Quran itself alludes to it in al-Noor when it says that us men should lower our gaze when being around those of the opposite sex.

[Chularatchamontri]

On which claim?

The ulama, hadith, and other references I provided to prove my case.

I need to know what of my claim you mean. It is hard for me to find english sources.

[Chularatchamontri]

It is not Zina. But you do not do Zina without this first step, so most scholars condemn unnecessary physical contact with the opposite sex.

Actually the Quran itself alludes to it in al-Noor when it says that us men should lower our gaze when being around those of the opposite sex.

Exactly

[Jolthig]

The ulama, hadith, and other references I provided to prove my case.

I need to know what of my claim you mean. It is hard for me to find english sources.

To counter the ulama I provided to prove jesus (as) died.

Otherwise, I suppose it's not a big deal and perhaps the link of the Mahdi and dajjal you provided will suffice as your daleel.

[Chularatchamontri]

On which claim?

The ulama, hadith, and other references I provided to prove my case.

On MGA not being able to be a prophet
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"

"In My Ummah (Islamic Nation), there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me. (Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45)" [1]

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, 'The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number.' The people asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?' He said, 'Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)"

"Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, 'Do you want to leave me with the children and women?' The Prophet said, 'Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 59, Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (peace be upon him) (Al-Maghaazi), Volume 5, Number 700)"

He also claimed God gave him these as words of God and miracles, despite not speaking english. https://imgur.com/a/eUQvT
So apparently God speaks broken english?

He claimed God made grammar mistakes in the Qu'ran https://imgur.com/a/6xsgi

Both of these are in the book you recommended me.

The next problem is some of his revelations were plagiarized. He copied lines from arabic poetry word for word, and also copied lines from the dictionary, Lisan Al Arab word for word, and claimed it was revelation from God! See these articles for proof:

http://thecult.info/blog/2012/05/04/lis ... -database/

http://thecult.info/blog/2010/12/21/poe ... -of-allah/

It is also silly to say that he was not a law giving prophet because he changed many things.

[Jolthig]

Honestly Chul, I appreciated our discussion tonight and if I seemed hostile or anything, I do apologize. And I appreciate your concern for my spirituality and wanting me to be guided to the right path, and I, in turn, wish the same for you. Let's pray for each other brother to be guided to the right path.

I hope this discourse has been enlightening for both of us and I look forward to more discussions with you in the future to exchange our views on what is the right path to Islam. Inshallah.

May Allah guide us both. Ameen.

[Jolthig]

The ulama, hadith, and other references I provided to prove my case.

On MGA not being able to be a prophet
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"

"In My Ummah (Islamic Nation), there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me. (Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45)" [1]

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, 'The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number.' The people asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?' He said, 'Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)"

"Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, 'Do you want to leave me with the children and women?' The Prophet said, 'Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 59, Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (peace be upon him) (Al-Maghaazi), Volume 5, Number 700)"

He also claimed God gave him these as words of God and miracles, despite not speaking english. https://imgur.com/a/eUQvT
So apparently God speaks broken english?

He claimed God made grammar mistakes in the Qu'ran https://imgur.com/a/6xsgi

Both of these are in the book you recommended me.

The next problem is some of his revelations were plagiarized. He copied lines from arabic poetry word for word, and also copied lines from the dictionary, Lisan Al Arab word for word, and claimed it was revelation from God! See these articles for proof:

http://thecult.info/blog/2012/05/04/lis ... -database/

http://thecult.info/blog/2010/12/21/poe ... -of-allah/

It is also silly to say that he was not a law giving prophet because he changed many things.

Thanks. Many of these allegations I'm actually familiar with, so I have experience with answering several of these. Inshallah I will respond later on

[Chularatchamontri]

I need to know what of my claim you mean. It is hard for me to find english sources.

To counter the ulama I provided to prove jesus (as) died.

Otherwise, I suppose it's not a big deal and perhaps the link of the Mahdi and dajjal you provided will suffice as your daleel.

Tabari (d. 839–923/ 224–310 AH) divided the early reports regarding Jesus crucifixion into two groups. According to the first, one of Jesus disciples volunteers to take the form of his master and is crucified. According to the other, the Jew mistakenly carried only an empty resemblance to the cross.[17]

Tabari narrated the first strand as follows:

Jesus went into a house together with seventeen of his companions. The Jew surrounded them but when they burst in God made all the disciples look like Jesus. The pursuers, supposing that they had bewitched them, threatened to kill them all if they did not expose him. Then Jesus asked his companions which of them would purchase paradise for himself thath day. One man volunteered and went out saying that he was Jesus and as God had made him look like Jesus they took him, killed him and crucified him. Thereupon "a semblance was made to them" and they thought that they had killed Jesus. The Christians likewise thought that it was Jesus who had been killed. And God raised Jesus right away.[18]

The second strand is narrated as follows:

The Jews were looking for Jesus. They took hold of Simon, one of the disciples, and they said, "This is one of his companions." And he denied it and said, "I am not one of his disciples." So they left him. Others took hold of him and he likewise denied it. Then he heard the sound of the cock and he wept and it grieved him. 'On the morning of the next day one of his disciples went to the Jew and said, "What will you give me if I lead you to the Messiah?" He accepted their offer of thirty dirhams and led them to him. And a semblance had been made for them before that, and they took him and made certain of him and bound him with a cord and began to lead him and to say to him "You used to bring the dead to life and to drive away Satan and heal the jinn-possessed so why not deliver yourself from this cord?" And they spat on him and cast thorns on him until they brought him to the wood upon which they wanted to crucify him. And God raised Jesus to Himself. And they crucified the semblance which was made to them. And [Jesus] tarried seven [hours]. 'Then his mother, and the woman whom God had freed from jinn-possession when Jesus treated her, came weeping to where the crucified [semblance] was. And Jesus came to them both and said, "Why are you weeping?" They said, "Because of You." He said, "God raised me to Himself and I came to no harm. This [corpse] is something which was "made a semblance to them". Order the disciples to meet me at such and such place." Eleven met him at the place. Jesus missed the one who had sold him. They said, "Because he regretted what he had done he commited suicide by strangling himself." Jesus replied, "If he had turned towards God, God would have turned toward him"

Ibn Kathir (d. 1373 CE/760 AH) follows traditions which suggest that a crucifixion did occur, but not with Jesus.[20] After the event, Ibn Kathir reports the people were divided into three groups following three different narratives; The Jacobites believing 'God remained with us as long as He willed and then He ascended to Heaven;' The Nestorians believing 'The son of God was with us as long as he willed until God raised him to heaven;' and the third group of Christians who believing; 'The servant and messenger of God, Jesus, remained with us as long as God willed until God raised him to Himself.'[21]

The following narration recorded in the Qur'anic exegesis of Ibn Kathir verse is related to the substitution of Jesus:

Ibn Abbas said, "Just before God raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'God remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of God was with us as long as he willed and God took him to Heaven.' Another group of Christians who said, 'The servant and Messenger of God remained with us as long as God willed, and God then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against that third Christian group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until God sent Muhammad." - Al-Nasa'i|Al-Kubra, 6:489[citation needed]

At another place in his Quranic exegesis, Ibn Kathir narrates the story as follows:

(The people conspiring against Jesus) envied him because of his prophethood and obvious miracles; curing the blind and leprous and bringing the dead back to life, by God's leave. He also used to make the shape of a bird from clay and blow in it, and it became a bird by God's leave and flew. 'Jesus performed other miracles that God honored him with, yet some defied and belied him and tried their best to harm him. God's Prophet 'Jesus could not live in any one city for long and he had to travel often with his mother, peace be upon them. Even so, some of the Jews were not satisfied, and they went to the king of Damascus at that time, a Greek polytheist who worshipped the stars. They told him that there was a man in Bayt Al-Maqdis misguiding and dividing the people in Jerusalem and stirring unrest among the king's subjects. The king became angry and wrote to his deputy in Jerusalem to arrest the rebel leader, stop him from causing unrest, crucify him and make him wear a crown of thorns. When the king's deputy in Jerusalem received these orders, he went with some Jews to the house that 'Jesus was residing in, and he was then with twelve, thirteen or seventeen of his companions. That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded 'Jesus in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, “Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise.”' A young man volunteered, but 'Jesus thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting 'Jesus to say, “Well then, you will be that man.” God made the young man look exactly like 'Jesus, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and 'Jesus was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep. God said, “O 'Jesus! I will take you and raise you to myself.” When 'Jesus ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like Jesus, they thought that he was Jesus. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. They then boasted that they killed Jesus'. Some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with Jesus, witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed 'Jesus by crucifixion. They even said that Marry sat under the corpse of the crucified man and cried, and they say that the dead man spoke to her. All this was a test from God for His servants out of His wisdom. God explained this matter in the Glorious Quran which He sent to His honorable Messenger, whom He supported with miracles and clear, unequivocal evidence. God is the Most Truthful, and He is the Lord of the worlds Who knows the secrets, what the hearts conceal, the hidden matters in heaven and earth, what has occurred, what will occur, and what would occur if it was decreed. - Kathir I. , Tafsir Ibn Kathir