Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Diarcesia]

It doesn't make sense in context. He's banned from the website for the way he expressed his views, that happens all the time. That you've not yet expressed genocide denial in a way that can get you kicked out isn't a mark of pride, it's pointing out you can lie but stick to the rules while doing so.

How did El-Amin get banned from this site while this thread is still up? I have been made aware of his questionable stance on slavery, but I am not ready to go further into that rabbit hole.

El-Amin's positions ain't unanimous in Islam, so a thread about Islam itself doesn't necessarily get locked.

[Arvenia]

Since when did Crusaders loot Christian kingdoms and violate Christian women?

tbf the third one burned and looted constantinople...

Oh, the Sack of Constantinople. I know that one.

[Ansarullah]

Not really. The Quran is pretty mum on the subject. The prohibition comes from the Hadiths, which even if are viewed as in line with what Muhammad said, its questionable as to whether or not they were his words, or the words of his contemporaries attributed to him.

7:80-84. And the Hadith are universally regarded as a reliable narrative of his life so that's just laughable.

How did El-Amin get banned from this site while this thread is still up? I have been made aware of his questionable stance on slavery, but I am not ready to go further into that rabbit hole.

I don't know. I've said before we should make a new thread because of how it makes us look.

A man who refuses to use his mind, spits in the eye of God

?

[Heloin]

.

[Tarsonis]

Since when did Crusaders loot Christian kingdoms and violate Christian women?

tbf the third one burned and looted constantinople...

4th. But the difference is they were all condemned by the Christian powers. Initially anyway.

[Ansarullah]

How did El-Amin get banned from this site while this thread is still up? I have been made aware of his questionable stance on slavery, but I am not ready to go further into that rabbit hole.

El-Amin's positions ain't unanimous in Islam, so a thread about Islam itself doesn't necessarily get locked.

They are not Islam period. He was an apostate and he knew it. I doubt he even thought of himself as Muslim in real life.

[Heloin]

tbf the third one burned and looted constantinople...

4th. But the difference is they were all condemned by the Christian powers. Initially anyway.

fuck, I knew I was getting something obvious wrong.

[Celritannia]

Oh, the "No true Scotsman" I like this argument /s.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, that argument doesn't work here. Islam has a clearly defined set of beliefs that you cannot go against. When you kill another Muslim for no reason, you disobey the Qur'an. When you deny you disobeyed it despite it being as clear as possible, you deny the Qur'ans authenticity. When you deny that, you deny Islam. See where this leads?

If someone believes they are a Muslim, or a Christian etc, then they are.

Who gets to decide when you don't know them?

[Ansarullah]

If someone believes they are a Muslim, or a Christian etc, then they are.

Who gets to decide when you don't know them?

I just explained what makes you a Muslim and why they're not Muslim. You're grasping at straws.

[Diarcesia]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, that argument doesn't work here. Islam has a clearly defined set of beliefs that you cannot go against. When you kill another Muslim for no reason, you disobey the Qur'an. When you deny you disobeyed it despite it being as clear as possible, you deny the Qur'ans authenticity. When you deny that, you deny Islam. See where this leads?

If someone believes they are a Muslim, or a Christian etc, then they are.

Who gets to decide when you don't know them?

This. "No true Scotsman" arguments are best reserved for debates among nominal Scots.

[Ansarullah]

This. "No true Scotsman" arguments are best reserved for debates among nominal Scots.

?

[Arvenia]

4th. But the difference is they were all condemned by the Christian powers. Initially anyway.

fuck, I knew I was getting something obvious wrong.

Nah, shit like that happens all the time.

[Heloin]

If someone believes they are a Muslim, or a Christian etc, then they are.

Who gets to decide when you don't know them?

I just explained what makes you a Muslim and why they're not Muslim. You're grasping at straws.

You didn't really explain anything except saying that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Your disagreement with someone's beliefs shockingly doesn't invalidate their beliefs.

[Celritannia]

If someone believes they are a Muslim, or a Christian etc, then they are.

Who gets to decide when you don't know them?

I just explained what makes you a Muslim and why they're not Muslim. You're grasping at straws.

And how will you stop someone from being a Muslim? You don't know every Muslim, you don't know how each of them thinks, or what they do. You cannot deny they are Muslims, because if they know, in their heart they are followers of Islam, then who is to stop them?

[Tarsonis]

Not really. The Quran is pretty mum on the subject. The prohibition comes from the Hadiths, which even if are viewed as in line with what Muhammad said, its questionable as to whether or not they were his words, or the words of his contemporaries attributed to him.

7:80-84.

Doesn't actually call for homosexuals to be killed, just relates the story of Lot.

And the Hadith are universally regarded as a reliable narrative of his life so that's just laughable.

Uh, no they aren't. Quite a bit of modern scholarship questions their authenticity and there's even Quranist alone movements who want to do away with the Hadiths completely.

A man who refuses to use his mind, spits in the eye of God

?

God gave you the ability to think. Your unwillingness to do so, is an affront to god.

[Samudera Darussalam]

El-Amin's positions ain't unanimous in Islam, so a thread about Islam itself doesn't necessarily get locked.

They are not Islam period. He was an apostate and he knew it. I doubt he even thought of himself as Muslim in real life.

As somebody who knew El-Amin (and yes, I disagree with his views for the note), he does thought of himself as a Muslim RL.

Also this summarize it:

I've said it before, I'll say it again, that argument doesn't work here. Islam has a clearly defined set of beliefs that you cannot go against. When you kill another Muslim for no reason, you disobey the Qur'an. When you deny you disobeyed it despite it being as clear as possible, you deny the Qur'ans authenticity. When you deny that, you deny Islam. See where this leads?

If someone believes they are a Muslim, or a Christian etc, then they are.

Who gets to decide when you don't know them?

[Ansarullah]

And how will you stop someone from being a Muslim? You don't know every Muslim, you don't know how each of them thinks, or what they do. You cannot deny they are Muslims, because if they know, in their heart they are followers of Islam, then who is to stop them?

Because they deny the Qur'an. There's unlimited information online denouncing (N)ISIS and explaining why their actions are wrong. Any member of ISIS did, at minimum, some looking into them. They'd come across something at some point.

You didn't really explain anything except saying that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Your disagreement with someone's beliefs shockingly doesn't invalidate their beliefs.

Clearly you didn't read what I said.

[Jolthig]

Don't worry, guys. He doesn't think I'm Muslim either.

And yet people admire the conduct of Ahmadi Muslims.

[Diarcesia]

This. "No true Scotsman" arguments are best reserved for debates among nominal Scots.

?

Well I'm trying to idiomize my thoughts but it's this:

I've said it before, I'll say it again, that argument doesn't work here. Islam has a clearly defined set of beliefs that you cannot go against. When you kill another Muslim for no reason, you disobey the Qur'an. When you deny you disobeyed it despite it being as clear as possible, you deny the Qur'ans authenticity. When you deny that, you deny Islam. See where this leads?

If someone believes they are a Muslim, or a Christian etc, then they are.

Who gets to decide when you don't know them?

[North Washington Republic]

If someone believes they are a Muslim, or a Christian etc, then they are.

Who gets to decide when you don't know them?

I just explained what makes you a Muslim and why they're not Muslim. You're grasping at straws.

What authority do you have to determine if someone is a Muslim or not? I understand the Quran states that they’re are those that say that they’re believers but are actually not(Al-Baqara Ayra eight). However, doesn’t that judgment only belong to Allah?

[Jolthig]

And yes, El-Amin was a legitimate Muslim. Ive said this before: Anyone who observes the 5 daily prayers, faces Kaaba, slaughters animals in a Halal way. Etc. Are Muslim.

[Celritannia]

And how will you stop someone from being a Muslim? You don't know every Muslim, you don't know how each of them thinks, or what they do. You cannot deny they are Muslims, because if they know, in their heart they are followers of Islam, then who is to stop them?

Because they deny the Qur'an. There's unlimited information online denouncing (N)ISIS and explaining why their actions are wrong. Any member of ISIS did, at minimum, some looking into them. They'd come across something at some point.

You didn't really explain anything except saying that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Your disagreement with someone's beliefs shockingly doesn't invalidate their beliefs.

Clearly you didn't read what I said.

Clearly, you are trying to turn away anyone who is Muslim.
No one is perfect, I am sure there are Muslims, just like Christians, who have broken a few codes of the holy book here and there. But what's important is the dedication to their faith, and how far they are willing to go to ask for forgiveness.

I'm a fucking atheist, why am I having to explain this?

[Ansarullah]

Don't worry, guys. He doesn't think I'm Muslim either.

And yet people admire the conduct of Ahmadi Muslims.

Except for when the Pakistani authorities in their fight for Islam persecute you. That's not really admiration.

As somebody who knew El-Amin (and yes, I disagree with his views for the note), he does thought of himself as a Muslim RL.

Also this summarize it:

Still doesn't make him one. People denounced his views and explained their problems more times than I can count. He has no excuse.

Doesn't actually call for homosexuals to be killed, just relates the story of Lot.

"Do you commit an action so evil none have done such a thing before you"?
Also see the fact they were destroyed for their actions.

Uh, no they aren't. Quite a bit of modern scholarship questions their authenticity and there's even Quranist alone movements who want to do away with the Hadiths completely.

Quranis are apostates. And what "scholarship"?

[Diarcesia]

And yes, El-Amin was a legitimate Muslim. Ive said this before: Anyone who observes the 5 daily prayers, faces Kaaba, slaughters animals in a Halal way. Etc. Are Muslim.

I've been meaning to ask this: do Arab Christians largely eat the halal way too?

[Arvenia]

And how will you stop someone from being a Muslim? You don't know every Muslim, you don't know how each of them thinks, or what they do. You cannot deny they are Muslims, because if they know, in their heart they are followers of Islam, then who is to stop them?

Because they deny the Qur'an. There's unlimited information online denouncing (N)ISIS and explaining why their actions are wrong. Any member of ISIS did, at minimum, some looking into them. They'd come across something at some point.

Why do you refer to ISIS as (N)ISIS? Does it stand for "New ISIS"?