Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[North Washington Republic]

Would it be fair to compare Sufism to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements within Christianity? Or am I way off base

[Al-Harreh Danistarab]

Not in reality, no.

Yes, in reality. Had this conversation already. Here's the quote:

"Christianity is debated between pacifism, and self defence on an individual basis. The truth of an action lies between these two. Islam is debated between self-defence and a retaliatory strike/offensive strike. That’s already fundamentally different. Christians are never taught to retaliate force with force, Muhammad did retaliate with force. When defeated, he then sought revenge/avengement and sent an army north. In this situation Christians are to seek forgiveness without retaliation in kind, Muhammad failed to forgive here, and retaliated out of avengement."

This is why it's easier. You can't make Jesus a violent man, you can make Muhammad.

Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) used violence in the temple against the moneylenders, also the Old Testament positively describes violence more than the Quran even proportionately.

Where in the Quran is there an order for armies to kill infants?
(something occasionally called for in the Old Testament)

[Dowaesk]

Would it be fair to compare Sufism to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements within Christianity? Or am I way off base

I do not know much about the smaller Christian sects, so..... maybe. Idk.

[Chess Reloaded]

Would it be fair to compare Sufism to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements within Christianity? Or am I way off base

That would be an extremely apt comparison. Except it also is comparable to Catholicism in veneration of relics, praying to saints and that stuff. Many pray to Muhammad ﷺ believing he never died but was given special authority over creation by Allah عز و جل

[Chess Reloaded]

Yes, in reality. Had this conversation already. Here's the quote:

"Christianity is debated between pacifism, and self defence on an individual basis. The truth of an action lies between these two. Islam is debated between self-defence and a retaliatory strike/offensive strike. That’s already fundamentally different. Christians are never taught to retaliate force with force, Muhammad did retaliate with force. When defeated, he then sought revenge/avengement and sent an army north. In this situation Christians are to seek forgiveness without retaliation in kind, Muhammad failed to forgive here, and retaliated out of avengement."

This is why it's easier. You can't make Jesus a violent man, you can make Muhammad.

Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) used violence in the temple against the moneylenders, also the Old Testament positively describes violence more than the Quran even proportionately.

Where in the Quran is there an order for armies to kill infants?
(something occasionally called for in the Old Testament)

Infants are considered legally Muslims, without contrary parental wishes they are buried in Muslim graveyards in Shari'ah. That is because children are not legally accountable

[Al-Harreh Danistarab]

Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) used violence in the temple against the moneylenders, also the Old Testament positively describes violence more than the Quran even proportionately.

Where in the Quran is there an order for armies to kill infants?
(something occasionally called for in the Old Testament)

Infants are considered legally Muslims, without contrary parental wishes they are buried in Muslim graveyards in Shari'ah. That is because children are not legally accountable

Exactly

[Diarcesia]

Yes, in reality. Had this conversation already. Here's the quote:

"Christianity is debated between pacifism, and self defence on an individual basis. The truth of an action lies between these two. Islam is debated between self-defence and a retaliatory strike/offensive strike. That’s already fundamentally different. Christians are never taught to retaliate force with force, Muhammad did retaliate with force. When defeated, he then sought revenge/avengement and sent an army north. In this situation Christians are to seek forgiveness without retaliation in kind, Muhammad failed to forgive here, and retaliated out of avengement."

This is why it's easier. You can't make Jesus a violent man, you can make Muhammad.

Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) used violence in the temple against the moneylenders, also the Old Testament positively describes violence more than the Quran even proportionately.

Where in the Quran is there an order for armies to kill infants?
(something occasionally called for in the Old Testament)

The usual rebuttal is... do Muslim leaders after Muhammad condone infanticide on their enemies?

[A m e n r i a]

Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) used violence in the temple against the moneylenders, also the Old Testament positively describes violence more than the Quran even proportionately.

Where in the Quran is there an order for armies to kill infants?
(something occasionally called for in the Old Testament)

The usual rebuttal is... do Muslim leaders after Muhammad condone infanticide on their enemies?

That's quite irrelevant when talking about the reality of Islam, and Nubia is wrong again. There is no hatred in prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)'s retaliation. It's not out og avengement. It's out of divine justice.

[Chess Reloaded]

Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) used violence in the temple against the moneylenders, also the Old Testament positively describes violence more than the Quran even proportionately.

Where in the Quran is there an order for armies to kill infants?
(something occasionally called for in the Old Testament)

The usual rebuttal is... do Muslim leaders after Muhammad condone infanticide on their enemies?

No, even ISIS doesn't execute infants

[A m e n r i a]

The usual rebuttal is... do Muslim leaders after Muhammad condone infanticide on their enemies?

No, even ISIS doesn't execute infants

Not yet, maybe. Those heretics never fail to horribly misinterpret Islam in the most nonsensical ways possible.

[Chess Reloaded]

No, even ISIS doesn't execute infants

Not yet, maybe. Those heretics never fail to horribly misinterpret Islam in the most nonsensical ways possible.

They're extraordinarily fringe but your interpretation is actually even more heretical

[A m e n r i a]

Not yet, maybe. Those heretics never fail to horribly misinterpret Islam in the most nonsensical ways possible.

They're extraordinarily fringe but your interpretation is actually even more heretical

Okay anprim.

[Dowaesk]

The usual rebuttal is... do Muslim leaders after Muhammad condone infanticide on their enemies?

No, even ISIS doesn't execute infants

ISIS in Mozambique beheaded children who hadnt reached puberty. Not exactly infants, but still. ISIS once issued a fatwa to kill babies with Down syndrome. And there were 38 reported cases of such killings in Syria and Iraq.

[Chess Reloaded]

No, even ISIS doesn't execute infants

ISIS in Mozambique beheaded children who hadnt reached puberty. Not exactly infants, but still. ISIS once issued a fatwa to kill babies with Down syndrome. And there were 38 reported cases of such killings in Syria and Iraq.

Yeah I remember reading that fatwa from Fox News lol. It turned out to be bogus. I don't personally believe western reporting on a lot of these things. The things IS does it documents and shares and that's good enough without embellishing it

[Ansarullah]

Yeah I remember reading that fatwa from Fox News lol. It turned out to be bogus. I don't personally believe western reporting on a lot of these things. The things IS does it documents and shares and that's good enough without embellishing it

Don't believe a word Western media says. presstv.ir, RT, and other Eastern (especially Muslim) sources are far more reliable. Even Al-Jazeera is better than any other Western outlet even if AJ is a Qatari puppet.

[A m e n r i a]

Yeah I remember reading that fatwa from Fox News lol. It turned out to be bogus. I don't personally believe western reporting on a lot of these things. The things IS does it documents and shares and that's good enough without embellishing it

Don't believe a word Western media says. presstv.ir, RT, and other Eastern (especially Muslim) sources are far more reliable. Even Al-Jazeera is better than any other Western outlet even if AJ is a Qatari puppet.

I mean, why would you deliberately subject yourself to western propaganda, right?

[Lower Nubia]

Yes, in reality. Had this conversation already. Here's the quote:

"Christianity is debated between pacifism, and self defence on an individual basis. The truth of an action lies between these two. Islam is debated between self-defence and a retaliatory strike/offensive strike. That’s already fundamentally different. Christians are never taught to retaliate force with force, Muhammad did retaliate with force. When defeated, he then sought revenge/avengement and sent an army north. In this situation Christians are to seek forgiveness without retaliation in kind, Muhammad failed to forgive here, and retaliated out of avengement."

This is why it's easier. You can't make Jesus a violent man, you can make Muhammad.

Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) used violence in the temple against the moneylenders, also the Old Testament positively describes violence more than the Quran even proportionately.

Where in the Quran is there an order for armies to kill infants?
(something occasionally called for in the Old Testament)

I wouldn’t compare whipping fraudsters/lecherous priests out of the temple to leave to sending an army north to die, or actual slavery.

I’ve already dealt with the old testament thing in this very thread. Continuing the moral relativism of the Old Testament when Christ had come 600 years prior to Muhammad is a big red flag on Islam’s part.

[Lower Nubia]

The usual rebuttal is... do Muslim leaders after Muhammad condone infanticide on their enemies?

That's quite irrelevant when talking about the reality of Islam, and Nubia is wrong again. There is no hatred in prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)'s retaliation. It's not out og avengement. It's out of divine justice.

I already proved it not necessary or relevant. So try again. Since I’ve been here none of what I’ve presented has been challenged, my three points earlier were never answered for example so “wrong again” needs to be demonstrated.

[Al-Harreh Danistarab]

actual slavery.

What do you mean by slavery?

[Lower Nubia]

actual slavery.

What do you mean by slavery?

“ The Prophet (ﷺ) offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet (ﷺ) had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet . The Prophet (ﷺ) made her manumission as her 'Mahr'”

“He freed her as a mahr. In other words, he offered to free her if she would marry him, he didn't just free her.

The rest of your info, I don't know where you getting that from. All her people were either killed or enslaved, all her tribe, I already given the account of the full version of events in this. Her extended family was only set free by their various owners after she married the Prophet ﷺ because as I have said many Muslims wished to make her happy because it would make her new husband happy, but there was no compulsion to free anyone. A'isha رضي الله عنها remarked no woman ever did as much for her family as Safiya رضي الله عنها because her marriage saved them from slavery.”

From chess reloaded.

[Ibadat Jamaeia]

actual slavery.

What do you mean by slavery?

Stop feeding the troll, people. This is why I hate these forums lmao

[Lower Nubia]

What do you mean by slavery?

Stop feeding the troll, people. This is why I hate these forums lmao

Troll? What do you mean troll?

[Suriyanakhon]

Would it be fair to compare Sufism to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements within Christianity? Or am I way off base

Not a Muslim, but imho, the comparison isn't accurate because Pentecostals are the product of a Reformation in the Christian church, while Sufism is not an independent movement from Sunni or Shia but mystical practices and beliefs in both schools, a lot of Sunni scholars are Sufi for instance. It's more accurate to compare it to Christian mysticism or Bhakti movements.

[Chess Reloaded]

Would it be fair to compare Sufism to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements within Christianity? Or am I way off base

Not a Muslim, but imho, the comparison isn't accurate because Pentecostals are the product of a Reformation in the Christian church, while Sufism is not an independent movement from Sunni or Shia but mystical practices and beliefs in both schools, a lot of Sunni scholars are Sufi for instance. It's more accurate to compare it to Christian mysticism or Bhakti movements.

Despite praying to saints, sufi practice is definitely more like Holy Rollers than Christian mysticism, and Reformation Islam, Wahhabism, is more like Savonarola than Pentecostals

[Al-Harreh Danistarab]

What do you mean by slavery?

“ The Prophet (ﷺ) offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet (ﷺ) had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet . The Prophet (ﷺ) made her manumission as her 'Mahr'”

“He freed her as a mahr. In other words, he offered to free her if she would marry him, he didn't just free her.

The rest of your info, I don't know where you getting that from. All her people were either killed or enslaved, all her tribe, I already given the account of the full version of events in this. Her extended family was only set free by their various owners after she married the Prophet ﷺ because as I have said many Muslims wished to make her happy because it would make her new husband happy, but there was no compulsion to free anyone. A'isha رضي الله عنها remarked no woman ever did as much for her family as Safiya رضي الله عنها because her marriage saved them from slavery.”

From chess reloaded.

Book 24, Number 3927 of Bukhari specifies that “slaves” are to be emancipated either by contract or work. That’s like indentured servitude isn’t it?

Umar said “You should certainly write him a contract of emancipation” about a slave who wanted to purchase his freedom and according to Bukhari, whipped a man who refused to free his slave.