Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Jolthig]

That is not how a debate works....

It's not, though. I'm not engaging in scriptural debate; I'm engaging in a debate on an ideology's nature. Implementation demonstrates a nature better than scripture does.

And i will show you the contrary in my response.

The Quran is Islam's guiding force, and then comes the Sunnah, to demonstrate it, and hadith gives the traditions to convey the Sunnah while sirat covers everything else.

[Washington Resistance Army]

It's not, though. I'm not engaging in scriptural debate; I'm engaging in a debate on an ideology's nature. Implementation demonstrates a nature better than scripture does.

And i will show you the contrary in my response.

The Quran is Islam's guiding force, and then comes the Sunnah, to demonstrate it, and hadith gives the traditions to convey the Sunnah while sirat covers everything else.

You two are talking past each other. You're both approaching the topic from vastly different starting points. NGR doesn't care what scripture or oral history says, he's looking at the recorded objective history of Islam. You on the other hand are placing much more emphasis on the scripture or oral history. No amount of effort posting is gonna change minds because you're just inherently approaching the topic from different points of view.

[A m e n r i a]

And i will show you the contrary in my response.

The Quran is Islam's guiding force, and then comes the Sunnah, to demonstrate it, and hadith gives the traditions to convey the Sunnah while sirat covers everything else.

You two are talking past each other. You're both approaching the topic from vastly different starting points. NGR doesn't care what scripture or oral history says, he's looking at the recorded objective history of Islam. You on the other hand are placing much more emphasis on the scripture or oral history. No amount of effort posting is gonna change minds because you're just inherently approaching the topic from different points of view.

Which goes back to how irrelevant history is when talking about any belief, ideological or otherwise. Results reflect nothing but human shortcomings. Words define the very belief.

[Washington Resistance Army]

You two are talking past each other. You're both approaching the topic from vastly different starting points. NGR doesn't care what scripture or oral history says, he's looking at the recorded objective history of Islam. You on the other hand are placing much more emphasis on the scripture or oral history. No amount of effort posting is gonna change minds because you're just inherently approaching the topic from different points of view.

Which goes back to how irrelevant history is when talking about any belief, ideological or otherwise. Results reflect nothing but human shortcomings. Words define the very belief.

That's an exceedingly dangerous position to hold and I reckon it wouldn't be very hard to come up with examples that make you deeply uncomfortable.

[A m e n r i a]

Which goes back to how irrelevant history is when talking about any belief, ideological or otherwise. Results reflect nothing but human shortcomings. Words define the very belief.

That's an exceedingly dangerous position to hold and I reckon it wouldn't be very hard to come up with examples that make you deeply uncomfortable.

I mean think about it; if you want to commend or condemn something, you'd want to commend or condemn it for what it really is, not how it's been misinterpreted or misapplied.

[The Grims]

That's an exceedingly dangerous position to hold and I reckon it wouldn't be very hard to come up with examples that make you deeply uncomfortable.

I mean think about it; if you want to commend or condemn something, you'd want to commend or condemn it for what it really is, not how it's been misinterpreted or misapplied.

Of course, what it really is is defined by how it is in reality- not by what people say it should be. Muslims are the defining factor, not the Quran.

[Jolthig]

I mean think about it; if you want to commend or condemn something, you'd want to commend or condemn it for what it really is, not how it's been misinterpreted or misapplied.

Of course, what it really is is defined by how it is in reality- not by what people say it should be. Muslims are the defining factor, not the Quran.

Which is not how Islam intended.

Nonetheless, it is incumbent on Muslims themselves to lead by example if they wish to defend their faith. For example, we Ahmadi Muslims place much emphasis even on the most minutest of details when practicing our faith.

[Jolthig]

And i will show you the contrary in my response.

The Quran is Islam's guiding force, and then comes the Sunnah, to demonstrate it, and hadith gives the traditions to convey the Sunnah while sirat covers everything else.

You two are talking past each other. You're both approaching the topic from vastly different starting points. NGR doesn't care what scripture or oral history says, he's looking at the recorded objective history of Islam. You on the other hand are placing much more emphasis on the scripture or oral history. No amount of effort posting is gonna change minds because you're just inherently approaching the topic from different points of view.

I am well aware of that.

[North German Realm]

Of course, what it really is is defined by how it is in reality- not by what people say it should be. Muslims are the defining factor, not the Quran.

Which is not how Islam intended.

Nonetheless, it is incumbent on Muslims themselves to lead by example if they wish to defend their faith. For example, we Ahmadi Muslims place much emphasis even on the most minutest of details when practicing our faith.

The problem isn't that "Muslims don't lead by example". It's that there are stuff that literally every single Islamic society or country does. The former can be handwaved away by "that's not what the scripture says". The latter however, suggests that that aspect of the societies and states is -rather than an outlier- a defining aspect.

[Jolthig]

Which is not how Islam intended.

Nonetheless, it is incumbent on Muslims themselves to lead by example if they wish to defend their faith. For example, we Ahmadi Muslims place much emphasis even on the most minutest of details when practicing our faith.

The problem isn't that "Muslims don't lead by example". It's that there are stuff that literally every single Islamic society or country does. The former can be handwaved away by "that's not what the scripture says". The latter however, suggests that that aspect of the societies and states is -rather than an outlier- a defining aspect.

Yeah, I know there are elements of the Shari'ah that we have many times disagreed on, and yes, I agree that there are punishments that were prescribed by Muhammad to be deprived of all humanity and mercy as those who were enemies of his state were considered la'nat (cursed) by Allah though from my observation of these hadith, it was because what they did was severe, and because of the fact, the Islamic State was in a state of warfare with the enemy. Some minute details, yes, but the subject of morality we have discussed on various times.

It is true that the Quran and Hadith give rulers and judges the discretion to decide on punishments if they aren't mentioned by the Quran or Hadith so as long as it does not conflict with the Quran and Sunnah. For example, Iran makes all women wear hijabs and they lash people for not fasting, and Saudi Arabia for a while banned women from driving, though none of these Fatwas have any basis in the Quran or Sunnah. Thus, their Qiyas is flawed, and as I've said in the past, they have lost the spirituality of Islam. Their ulama may have much academic knowledge, and produce much literature for the Sunni and Shi'a worlds respectively (as is your case since you went to a university for Islamic studies based off the Ja'fari if I recall), however, they have become paranoid about losing their power. They don't realize with the advent of the internet, they cannot control people's lives completely. Saudi Arabia's totalitarianism, is just proof their implementation of the Shari'ah has failed, and same with Iran's. On paper, from an academic point of view, their systems seem good, but with greedy kings and a powerful ulama, their failures to change society is why I'm certain they lost their faith, and they only outwardly practice their faith, much like the Jewish scholars in Jesus's time.

With the advent of Ahmadiyya, they both turned hostile to us, and worked hard to produce literature in an attempt to debunk Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, but they failed, and they have already been refuted. In our view of Shari'ah, in order to ensure for the system to work, a society must be accepting of Islam, and same with the minorities for the acceptance of Shar'iah. This was the case of the Government of Medina, and into the first caliphate until the first fitna. A state cannot exist unless if they have spirituality and they have the support of Allah. You cannot force religion on those who disbelieve or apostatize as is your case if you are caught. The only way for society to change, is if they sincerely accept the teachings of Islam. All I say for now is on paper until it's in action.

But, addressing your point, yes, Saudi Arabia and Iran follows Islamic scripture in certain areas, and yes, every single Islamic community is going to follow scripture in certain areas, but once they start inventing their own traditions that aren't based on qiyas or any other scholarly foundation, and their followers start taking matters into their own hands like ISIS, is why I am saying, they deviate from Islam.

ISIS commits genocide against minorities like the Yazidis which has no basis in the Quran. You can mention the hadith by Ikrimah al-Barbari and supposedly from his master, Ibn Abbas about Apostasy, but he was known to be a difficult student of Ibn Abbas, and he later did things that were contrary to the teachings of Islam, as Zizou quoted months back from Murder in the Name of Allah by Mirza Tahir Ahmad, 4th Khalifa of Ahmadiyya:

I’ll quote something I said in a region I was in, before I was banned for free speech:
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/88/5
Yeah, not peaceful at all

First of all, in no way were you banned for free speech. If I remember correctly, you left on your own from the region in question. Secondly, as I told you in that region, the narrator is of dubious authenticity, and is most likely fabricated or altered. As said by Mirza Tahir Ahmad:
Dhahbi states that because lkramah was a Kharijite, his traditions were unreliable and dubious. An expert on the Punishment for Apostasy, Imam Ali b. Al-Medaini, is of the same opinion. Yahya b. Bekir used to say that the Kharijites of Egypt, Algiers and Morocco were strongly allied to Ikramah.

The Sunnah also demonstrates that no one was executed for leaving Islam. Otherwise, the hypocrites of Medina who some reverted to Judaism would've been slaughtered like animals. That's why I say the mainstream Saudi and Iranian-dominated Sunni and Shi'a Islam has deviated from the Sunnah and more towards simple politics with the face of the Islamic Shari'ah painted to appease their ulama who are also lost. Though Iran's supreme leader is also the Ayatollah of Twelver Shi'a. I do not deny his scholarship in Islamic Jurisprudence nor do I deny he obeys Islam in certain areas. My issue is because he has political motives in foreign policy and the other issues I've mentioned that need no repetition.

Basically once you start being hypocritical and start forcing one's painted picture of an Islamic society, you're not changing society anymore. You're just hanging onto a blind dream that will never come true until Allah changes the hearts of individuals. Not that you believe in Allah of course as that is a topic for another time, but you get what I mean from my perspective.

[A m e n r i a]

I mean think about it; if you want to commend or condemn something, you'd want to commend or condemn it for what it really is, not how it's been misinterpreted or misapplied.

Of course, what it really is is defined by how it is in reality- not by what people say it should be. Muslims are the defining factor, not the Quran.

That's where you're wrong. Reality is exactly how it should be, which is the Quran, not Muslims. People are dumb.

Of course, what it really is is defined by how it is in reality- not by what people say it should be. Muslims are the defining factor, not the Quran.

Which is not how Islam intended.

Nonetheless, it is incumbent on Muslims themselves to lead by example if they wish to defend their faith. For example, we Ahmadi Muslims place much emphasis even on the most minutest of details when practicing our faith.

Elaborate, please?

[North German Realm]

Of course, what it really is is defined by how it is in reality- not by what people say it should be. Muslims are the defining factor, not the Quran.

That's where you're wrong. Reality is exactly how it should be, which is the Quran, not Muslims. People are dumb.

Does that include Muhammad? Because if so, you're committing heresy lmao

[Jolthig]

Of course, what it really is is defined by how it is in reality- not by what people say it should be. Muslims are the defining factor, not the Quran.

That's where you're wrong. Reality is exactly how it should be, which is the Quran, not Muslims. People are dumb.

Which is not how Islam intended.

Nonetheless, it is incumbent on Muslims themselves to lead by example if they wish to defend their faith. For example, we Ahmadi Muslims place much emphasis even on the most minutest of details when practicing our faith.

Elaborate, please?

Muhammad (saw) practiced islam even on minute matters. Thus, it is for us to imitate.

[A m e n r i a]

That's where you're wrong. Reality is exactly how it should be, which is the Quran, not Muslims. People are dumb.

Does that include Muhammad? Because if so, you're committing heresy lmao

He was scolded with Abasa when he gave someone a bad attitude, so you be the judge of that.

That's where you're wrong. Reality is exactly how it should be, which is the Quran, not Muslims. People are dumb.



Elaborate, please?

Muhammad (saw) practiced islam even on minute matters. Thus, it is for us to imitate.

Minute matters like?

[Jolthig]

Does that include Muhammad? Because if so, you're committing heresy lmao

He was scolded with Abasa when he gave someone a bad attitude, so you be the judge of that.

Muhammad (saw) practiced islam even on minute matters. Thus, it is for us to imitate.

Minute matters like?

Not backbiting other people, cleaning one's home, checking on the well-being of others, having good work ethics, not being lazy, always working, eating healthy, treating one's wife with kindness even if she makes you angry, forgiving one's brother any sort of trespass for the sake of Allah, etc.

[Jolthig]

https://amp.postcrescent.com/amp/266350 ... ssion=true

How our conduct can change a community's perspective on Islam.

And one of pictures, is myself having a meeting with a couple older Christian gentlemen I occasionally have dialogue with on Islam and Christianity. So yes, I doxxed myself on here lol

[A m e n r i a]

He was scolded with Abasa when he gave someone a bad attitude, so you be the judge of that.



Minute matters like?

Not backbiting other people, cleaning one's home, checking on the well-being of others, having good work ethics, not being lazy, always working, eating healthy, treating one's wife with kindness even if she makes you angry, forgiving one's brother any sort of trespass for the sake of Allah, etc.

That's not really minute, that's pretty much what Islam is in regards to interpersonal relations.

[Jolthig]

Not backbiting other people, cleaning one's home, checking on the well-being of others, having good work ethics, not being lazy, always working, eating healthy, treating one's wife with kindness even if she makes you angry, forgiving one's brother any sort of trespass for the sake of Allah, etc.

That's not really minute, that's pretty much what Islam is in regards to interpersonal relations.

My point is most people treat these matters as minute so I'm appealing to this mindset of people to say, that the small details lead to much bigger things.

[A m e n r i a]

That's not really minute, that's pretty much what Islam is in regards to interpersonal relations.

My point is most people treat these matters as minute so I'm appealing to this mindset of people to say, that the small details lead to much bigger things.

Right..now let's go save the world.

https://amp.postcrescent.com/amp/2663507001?__twitter_impression=true

How our conduct can change a community's perspective on Islam.

And one of pictures, is myself having a meeting with a couple older Christian gentlemen I occasionally have dialogue with on Islam and Christianity. So yes, I doxxed myself on here lol

Inb4 someone posts your photo here just to mess with ya

[Jolthig]

My point is most people treat these matters as minute so I'm appealing to this mindset of people to say, that the small details lead to much bigger things.

Right..now let's go save the world.

https://amp.postcrescent.com/amp/2663507001?__twitter_impression=true

How our conduct can change a community's perspective on Islam.

And one of pictures, is myself having a meeting with a couple older Christian gentlemen I occasionally have dialogue with on Islam and Christianity. So yes, I doxxed myself on here lol

Inb4 someone posts your photo here just to mess with ya

Lol.

[Isles of Metanoia]

I support Illongo migrant hybridization and integration with natives. Much like how the Umayyad Caliphate became nativized into Spain after the Reconquista. That's why you would find alot of Arabic words in Spanish and weird Arabic surnames among the Spanish. El Cid for example, a Spanish hero, comes from the Arabic Al Sayid.

I just wish that our Muslim brothers would be more like the Taifa states in Al Andalus which competed not only militarily with the kingdoms of Christian Spain, but also in wealth. It became centers of flourishing culture and riches like in Cordoba which was a rival even of Constantinople in Europe. The Caliphate of Cordoba was uniquely Muslim but was also Spanish since it arose out of the Iberian peninsula in rivalry with the Abbasid Caliphate in Bhagdad.

We could have an equivalent of a Caliphate of Cordoba here in the Philippines if our local Taifa states here: the Sultanates of Maguindanao, Lanao and Sulu (Which the Philippine Republic still recognizes BTW together with the Animist Cordillera Administrative Region which we also grant autonomy Constitutionally), could step up, be wealthy and and not allow themselves to manipulated by our Malaysian neighbors who constantly forment war and cause poverty in the Philippines and at the same time expel the Philippine-origined MUSLIM Tausugs and Badjao from Malaysia yet also allow Christians to flourish in Sarawak.

I'd rather Bangsamoro be annexed by Malaysia than stay under Philippine rule, a country which isn't even a nation.

Definition of Nation: A social community united by language, culture, history, and religion.

Everything you said is nonsensical. Why would you support a Malaysia that is directly responsible for causing the wars between Christians and Muslims in the Philippines and thus caused your poverty via war and at the same time stole the land Brunei gave to Sulu, while they also aren't even big on Muslim brotherhood either since a Christian majority State in Malaysia is their 4rth richest state.


Do you think the Malaysians will treat you guys well when they basically killed and expelled the Muslim Tausug and Badjao people in Sabah who have been living there since even before the state of Malaysia was born?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rapple ... down-sabah

https://www.manilatimes.net/

You should stop being an ignorant person and continue on supporting the people who are turning our home into a warzone (Malaysia). They dont give a fuck if we continue on killing each other as we destroy each others' cities like the Moro Seige of Zamboanga or the Battle of Marawi. Heck they even profit by from it by selling weapons, supplies and giving loans while they just sit on their fat asses profiteering from the wars they forment elsewhere.

And you have to be realistic. If you side with Malaysia, you think 32 Million Malaysians can put up a fight againt 105 Million Filipinos? The only reason why we are not reclaiming our land from those trecherous cowardly bastards is because we respect international law (Which they dont).

Also, Malaysians are less brave than Filipinos, they didn't wage a war of independence against a Western power, they cowered under Portuguese and British control whereas the Filipinos successfully rebelled during the Philippine Revolution against Spain and even though we lost the Philippine-American war (Because we were already exhausted fighting against Spain), at least we proved our mettle in that we were willing to die even when we know we would lose, rather than what the Malaysians do, shirk from a battle yet hire goons to fight their fighting for them.

[A m e n r i a]

Hey, guys, I was wondering..Does the rule about being licked by dogs extend to other canines? (Foxes, wolves, etc)

[Jolthig]

Hey, guys, I was wondering..Does the rule about being licked by dogs extend to other canines? (Foxes, wolves, etc)

I'm not sure what you mean by that? What rule?

[A m e n r i a]

Hey, guys, I was wondering..Does the rule about being licked by dogs extend to other canines? (Foxes, wolves, etc)

I'm not sure what you mean by that? What rule?

Cleansing yourself after being licked and such.

[The Grims]

I'm not sure what you mean by that? What rule?

Cleansing yourself after being licked and such.

If licked by foxes I would consider a rabies shot.