Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[New Tetraland]

I'm not dishonest of myself. I forgive you though, and this is exactly the reason why you should read the Holy Qur'an by yourself instead of relying on other people, especially non-Muslims.

If I do, then what? Will allah appear to me suddenly? The issue is, you take this on faith. I take nothing on faith, except for the sake of argument. Even if allah appeared to me in a dream, based on what you have told me about Islamic law, I would not follow him. Ever. god is not great.

An evil god does not deserve worship. I would much rather flip him off and go to hell than bow down to a psychopath so can put up with his presence for eternity in "paradise".

[Kowani]

Yeah, ‘cause I don’t have a copy of Ghazali on hand to copy, and I would prefer not to be accused of messing something up.

Ok, well here's the one by Imam Al-Ghazaali:
https://medium.com/@galacticwarrior9/th ... d426cb99da
The article also discusses some details before and after going into the argument.

An actual infinite number does not exist. Everything is finite.
Therefore, the series of causes for the cosmos to be as it is now cannot be infinite in sequence: that is, it must also be finite;
Therefore, the cosmos was brought into existence at some point in the past.
This leads to the crux of the argument:
Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe that began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.
(The implicit fourth cause is that this something is ultimately God)

1: This doesn’t actually prove Allah, this attempts to prove that there is a God.
2: And, unsurprisingly, immediately retreats to special pleading. If one of the premises of your argument is that everything has a cause, then your conclusion cannot violate said premise. So, they get around this by asserting that Allah has always existed, even before time. Not only is this a blatant loophole, it’s just bad logic. See, in order for that to be a valid defense, you’d need to actually prove that Allah had, indeed, existed before time. Good luck with that.

Speaking of which, this does nothing to rebut the infinite regression hypothesis, which also happens to be one of the leading theories in actual astrophysics.

[ECKU]

Again, don't make assumptions about me. I go by imaan (faith) and daleel (evidence). You should still read the Holy Qur'an, even if just to get a better understanding of what we believe.

What evidence do you go by?

Allah SWT existing, the errors of other religious texts, the supremacy of the Holy Qur'an over all books in the universe, the prophethood of Muhammad SAWS.

[Al Mumtahanah]

No, it is quite a rule of science that if an axiom doesn't hold the data is incomplete.

The axiom you cite is the conservation of energy. We have a good understanding of how energy can appear from nothing, and how matter can appear from energy in the vacuum of space.

For further reading, I suggest “A Universe From Nothing” by Lawrence Krauss

Not only pleaing magic but saying you have a good understanding of its mechanics?

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

What evidence do you go by?

Allah SWT existing, the errors of other religious texts, the supremacy of the Holy Qur'an over all books in the universe, the prophethood of Muhammad SAWS.

All of these are appeals to unbased authority, non-sequiturs, and baseless assertions. Got anything else?

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

The axiom you cite is the conservation of energy. We have a good understanding of how energy can appear from nothing, and how matter can appear from energy in the vacuum of space.

For further reading, I suggest “A Universe From Nothing” by Lawrence Krauss

Not only pleaing magic but saying you have a good understanding of its mechanics?

The scientific community bases particle physics on its mechanics, so yes, we do. While we may never know the origins of everything, that still does not necessitate a god element.

[New Tetraland]

Allah SWT existing, the errors of other religious texts, the supremacy of the Holy Qur'an over all books in the universe, the prophethood of Muhammad SAWS.

All of these are appeals to unbased authority, non-sequiturs, and baseless assertions. Got anything else?

Not to mention the numerous contradictions in the Koran and the fact that Muhammad was most likely a wild-eyed schizophrenic if not simply a psychopath.

[Kowani]

What evidence do you go by?

Allah SWT existing,

Citation needed.

the errors of other religious texts,

Citation needed.

the supremacy of the Holy Qur'an over all books in the universe

Subjective nonsense.

, the prophethood of Muhammad SAWS.

Yeah, no.

[ECKU]

Ok, well here's the one by Imam Al-Ghazaali:
https://medium.com/@galacticwarrior9/th ... d426cb99da
The article also discusses some details before and after going into the argument.

An actual infinite number does not exist. Everything is finite.
Therefore, the series of causes for the cosmos to be as it is now cannot be infinite in sequence: that is, it must also be finite;
Therefore, the cosmos was brought into existence at some point in the past.
This leads to the crux of the argument:
Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe that began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.
(The implicit fourth cause is that this something is ultimately God)

1: This doesn’t actually prove Allah, this attempts to prove that there is a God.
2: And, unsurprisingly, immediately retreats to special pleading. If one of the premises of your argument is that everything has a cause, then your conclusion cannot violate said premise. So, they get around this by asserting that Allah has always existed, even before time. Not only is this a blatant loophole, it’s just bad logic. See, in order for that to be a valid defense, you’d need to actually prove that Allah had, indeed, existed before time. Good luck with that.

Speaking of which, this does nothing to rebut the infinite regression hypothesis, which also happens to be one of the leading theories in actual astrophysics.

1: "Allah" is just the Arabic word for God SWT.
2: Because Allah SWT exists outside of this universe. Time did not exist outside of this universe so yes, He does exist outside of time and by extension, is eternal. Also, you're putting what happens in the universe onto what happens with Allah SWT, which is wrong. Allah SWT is not made of anything that this universe is made of, and no laws of physics apply to Him. In logical arguments, infinite regress is a logical fallacy: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... us-Fallacy

[ECKU]

Allah SWT existing, the errors of other religious texts, the supremacy of the Holy Qur'an over all books in the universe, the prophethood of Muhammad SAWS.

All of these are appeals to unbased authority, non-sequiturs, and baseless assertions. Got anything else?

You asked what I go by, that's what I go by.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

An actual infinite number does not exist. Everything is finite.
Therefore, the series of causes for the cosmos to be as it is now cannot be infinite in sequence: that is, it must also be finite;
Therefore, the cosmos was brought into existence at some point in the past.
This leads to the crux of the argument:
Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe that began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.
(The implicit fourth cause is that this something is ultimately God)

1: This doesn’t actually prove Allah, this attempts to prove that there is a God.
2: And, unsurprisingly, immediately retreats to special pleading. If one of the premises of your argument is that everything has a cause, then your conclusion cannot violate said premise. So, they get around this by asserting that Allah has always existed, even before time. Not only is this a blatant loophole, it’s just bad logic. See, in order for that to be a valid defense, you’d need to actually prove that Allah had, indeed, existed before time. Good luck with that.

Speaking of which, this does nothing to rebut the infinite regression hypothesis, which also happens to be one of the leading theories in actual astrophysics.

1: "Allah" is just the Arabic word for God SWT.
2: Because Allah SWT exists outside of this universe. Time did not exist outside of this universe so yes, He does exist outside of time and by extension, is eternal. Also, you're putting what happens in the universe onto what happens with Allah SWT, which is wrong. Allah SWT is not made of anything that this universe is made of, and no laws of physics apply to Him. In logical arguments, infinite regress is a logical fallacy: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... us-Fallacy

But who created allah?

[Al Mumtahanah]

Not only pleaing magic but saying you have a good understanding of its mechanics?

The scientific community bases particle physics on its mechanics, so yes, we do. While we may never know the origins of everything, that still does not necessitate a god element.

That's because you're misrepresenting its mechanics and you know it. Atheist Taqiyyah? It is not something spontaneously appearing out of nothing because absolute nothing isn't even a thing in physics.

[ECKU]

1: "Allah" is just the Arabic word for God SWT.
2: Because Allah SWT exists outside of this universe. Time did not exist outside of this universe so yes, He does exist outside of time and by extension, is eternal. Also, you're putting what happens in the universe onto what happens with Allah SWT, which is wrong. Allah SWT is not made of anything that this universe is made of, and no laws of physics apply to Him. In logical arguments, infinite regress is a logical fallacy: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... us-Fallacy

But who created allah?

That link answers your question, and so does the link about the KCA.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

All of these are appeals to unbased authority, non-sequiturs, and baseless assertions. Got anything else?

You asked what I go by, that's what I go by.

What you go by is pathetic. Why do you cling to a faith you have no reason to hold? As much as I antagonize you, you are better than this. 100%

[New haven america]

But who created allah?

That link answers your question, and so does the link about the KCA.

I'm sorry, haven't you been told to give actual answers instead of just lazily linking things?

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

But who created allah?

That link answers your question, and so does the link about the KCA.

Forgive me, I thought this was a discussion thread. Let me rephrase:
Are you special pleading for allah?

[ECKU]

You asked what I go by, that's what I go by.

What you go by is pathetic. Why do you cling to a faith you have no reason to hold? As much as I antagonize you, you are better than this. 100%

I actually do have reason to hold onto it, you just don't believe in/like it.

[ECKU]

That link answers your question, and so does the link about the KCA.

Forgive me, I thought this was a discussion thread. Let me rephrase:
Are you special pleading for allah?

Nope

[Al Mumtahanah]

You asked what I go by, that's what I go by.

What you go by is pathetic. Why do you cling to a faith you have no reason to hold? As much as I antagonize you, you are better than this. 100%

The Qur'an alone is reason.

[ECKU]

What you go by is pathetic. Why do you cling to a faith you have no reason to hold? As much as I antagonize you, you are better than this. 100%

The Qur'an alone is reason.

^This

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

What you go by is pathetic. Why do you cling to a faith you have no reason to hold? As much as I antagonize you, you are better than this. 100%

I actually do have reason to hold onto it, you just don't believe in/like it.

Your “evidence” is fallacious. Your faith is based on nothing. I’m perfectly fine continuing to antagonize your religion and its weird shenanigans, but something within me hopes you find better reasons for your beliefs, or leave them behind. However unlikely that is to happen, come find me if you’re interested in discussing the basis of belief seriously.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

The Qur'an alone is reason.

^This

How do you know?

[Kowani]

1: "Allah" is just the Arabic word for God SWT.

Yeah, you missed my point.

2: Because Allah SWT exists outside of this universe. Time did not exist outside of this universe so yes, He does exist outside of time and by extension, is eternal. Also, you're putting what happens in the universe onto what happens with Allah SWT, which is wrong. Allah SWT is not made of anything that this universe is made of, and no laws of physics apply to Him.

Okay…The point being made is that your argument rests on an unprovable premise; that Allah exists outside of time. If one is to attempt to prove something, one must be prepared to prove everything leading up to it.

In logical arguments, infinite regress is a logical fallacy: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... us-Fallacy

A point. Either infinite regress or something from nothing is required for physics to work.

[ECKU]

I actually do have reason to hold onto it, you just don't believe in/like it.

Your “evidence” is fallacious. Your faith is based on nothing.

Nice opinions

I’m perfectly fine continuing to antagonize your religion and its weird shenanigans, but something within me hopes you find better reasons for your beliefs, or leave them behind. However unlikely that is to happen, come find me if you’re interested in discussing the basis of belief seriously.

I'd only come to prove the existence of Allah SWT to you.

[ECKU]

1: "Allah" is just the Arabic word for God SWT.

A point. Either infinite regress or something from nothing is required for physics to work.

Did something mess up in your quote chain?