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Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What denomination of Islam are you part of?

Sunni
223
46%
Salafi
15
3%
Shi'a
41
8%
Qur'ani
11
2%
Ahmadi
5
1%
IbaaDi
9
2%
Sufi (either Sunni or Shi'a)
30
6%
Non-Denominational
76
16%
Other
78
16%
 
Total votes : 488

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Al Mumtahanah
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Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:17 am

A m e n r i a wrote:
Kowani wrote:If China’s Communist, North Korea’s democratic.


The government is communist never mind that the rest of the society is capitalist af.

Anyways, I've been thinking about extinction. Sure, in the case of dinosaurs, it was God's will, but since we came around we've caused a lot of extinctions on the planet. Who do you guys think will be judged for such a sin? All of humanity or just the greedy ones?

There is no evidence of Allah (swt) judging all of humanity, just particular peoples. Even the Deluge judging by the pattern was very probably not global, just judgement of a particular people.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

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Al Mumtahanah
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Founded: Jun 21, 2019
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Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:21 am

Kowani wrote:
A m e n r i a wrote:
The government is communist never mind that the rest of the society is capitalist af.

Anyways, I've been thinking about extinction. Sure, in the case of dinosaurs, it was God's will, but since we came around we've caused a lot of extinctions on the planet. Who do you guys think will be judged for such a sin? All of humanity or just the greedy ones?

From a theistic perspective, extinctions make no sense.

Hoe does it not?
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

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Kowani
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Posts: 44696
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:22 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Kowani wrote:From a theistic perspective, extinctions make no sense.

Hoe does it not?

Before I ask that, a question. In Islam, can animals sin?
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

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A m e n r i a
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Founded: Jun 08, 2017
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Postby A m e n r i a » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:24 am

Kowani wrote:
A m e n r i a wrote:
The government is communist never mind that the rest of the society is capitalist af.

Anyways, I've been thinking about extinction. Sure, in the case of dinosaurs, it was God's will, but since we came around we've caused a lot of extinctions on the planet. Who do you guys think will be judged for such a sin? All of humanity or just the greedy ones?

From a theistic perspective, extinctions make no sense.


Why?
The Empire of Amenria (亚洲帝国)
Sinocentric Asian theocratic absolute monarchy. Set 28 years in the future. On-site factbooks are no longer canon. A 13.14 civilization, according to this index.
Nani!? A rules creepypasta set in R1!?
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Kowani
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Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:25 am

]
A m e n r i a wrote:
Kowani wrote:From a theistic perspective, extinctions make no sense.


Why?

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Hoe does it not?

Before I ask that, a question. In Islam, can animals sin?[/quote
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
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Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:26 am

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Hoe does it not?

Before I ask that, a question. In Islam, can animals sin?

Maturidis would say no, some Asharis would say yes.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
Kowani
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Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:32 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Kowani wrote:Before I ask that, a question. In Islam, can animals sin?

Maturidis would say no, some Asharis would say yes.

And you are…?
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
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Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:43 am

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Maturidis would say no, some Asharis would say yes.

And you are…?

Ashari but I am unsure if animals can sin.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
Kowani
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Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:54 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Kowani wrote:And you are…?

Ashari but I am unsure if animals can sin.

Let’s assume that they can’t, just for the sake of argument.

God (who knows everything, by the way), created a species that committed no crime, just for the end goal of killing it off, forever. Nobody was benefited from it, no other species of animal was benefited by it-It’s death for death’s sake.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
A m e n r i a
Senator
 
Posts: 4639
Founded: Jun 08, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby A m e n r i a » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:54 am

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Hoe does it not?

Before I ask that, a question. In Islam, can animals sin?


I meant humans sin by causing entire species to die out, not the animals. I'm on the "animals are innocent" team.
The Empire of Amenria (亚洲帝国)
Sinocentric Asian theocratic absolute monarchy. Set 28 years in the future. On-site factbooks are no longer canon. A 13.14 civilization, according to this index.
Nani!? A rules creepypasta set in R1!?
9Axes
Pro: Tradition, Confucianism, Islam, religion in general, pacifism, gender equality, cats
Neutral: Dogs, veganism
Anti: Westernism, the west, religious fundamentalism, secularism, feminism

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Kowani
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Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:56 am

A m e n r i a wrote:
Kowani wrote:Before I ask that, a question. In Islam, can animals sin?


I meant humans sin by causing entire species to die out, not the animals. I'm on the "animals are innocent" team.

Yes, I’m speaking of the 4 extinction events that predate humans.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 am

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Ashari but I am unsure if animals can sin.

Let’s assume that they can’t, just for the sake of argument.

God (who knows everything, by the way), created a species that committed no crime, just for the end goal of killing it off, forever. Nobody was benefited from it, no other species of animal was benefited by it-It’s death for death’s sake.

So? He kills off all life, death is part of life and the natural cycle, not a punishmemt innately just because it can be used as one.
Last edited by Al Mumtahanah on Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

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Jolthig
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Posts: 16317
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 am

As animals don't have free will like humans, no they cannot really "sin". Their "morals" are simply their instincts.
Devoted Ahmadi Muslim • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • Discord ID: Jolthig#9602
Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

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Kowani
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Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:58 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Kowani wrote:Let’s assume that they can’t, just for the sake of argument.

God (who knows everything, by the way), created a species that committed no crime, just for the end goal of killing it off, forever. Nobody was benefited from it, no other species of animal was benefited by it-It’s death for death’s sake.

So? He kills off all life, death is part of life amd the natural cycle, not a punishmemt innately just because it can be used as one.

Extinctions are, by definition, a violation of the natural cycle-or evidence of a very poorly designed one.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:00 am

Jolthig wrote:As animals don't have free will like humans, no they cannot really "sin". Their "morals" are simply their instincts.

Most Muslims subscribe to Ashari aqidah, which rejects free will altogether in the conventional sense.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
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Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:03 am

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:So? He kills off all life, death is part of life amd the natural cycle, not a punishmemt innately just because it can be used as one.

Extinctions are, by definition, a violation of the natural cycle-or evidence of a very poorly designed one.

No more than death is. I think something like 99% of species to ever live have gone extinct.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:03 am

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:So? He kills off all life, death is part of life amd the natural cycle, not a punishmemt innately just because it can be used as one.

Extinctions are, by definition, a violation of the natural cycle-or evidence of a very poorly designed one.

Who's calling it poorly designed? And considering how often (in geological/evolutionary terms anyways) it happened, I'd say it's part of the natural cycle. It's even beneficial for some animals.
Last edited by El-Amin Caliphate on Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kowani
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Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:08 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Kowani wrote:Extinctions are, by definition, a violation of the natural cycle-or evidence of a very poorly designed one.

No more than death is. I think something like 99% of species to ever live have gone extinct.

A strike against Allah.

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Kowani wrote:Extinctions are, by definition, a violation of the natural cycle-or evidence of a very poorly designed one.

Who's calling it poorly designed?

Right now, me.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:And considering how often (in geological/evolutionary terms anyways) it happened, I'd say it's part of the natural cycle.
Like I said, a poorly designed one.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote: It's even beneficial for some animals.

Those that survive. Which, looking at statistics, is a terrible mark for Allah.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

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Jolthig
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Posts: 16317
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:14 am

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:No more than death is. I think something like 99% of species to ever live have gone extinct.

A strike against Allah.

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Who's calling it poorly designed?

Right now, me.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:And considering how often (in geological/evolutionary terms anyways) it happened, I'd say it's part of the natural cycle.
Like I said, a poorly designed one.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote: It's even beneficial for some animals.

Those that survive. Which, looking at statistics, is a terrible mark for Allah.

I mean, there aren't really "statistics" per say when it comes to ancient animals as there weren't really any surveyors to record the amount of deaths unless if they got killed too in the events. :p
Devoted Ahmadi Muslim • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • Discord ID: Jolthig#9602
Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

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Jolthig
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Posts: 16317
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:14 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Jolthig wrote:As animals don't have free will like humans, no they cannot really "sin". Their "morals" are simply their instincts.

Most Muslims subscribe to Ashari aqidah, which rejects free will altogether in the conventional sense.

On animals?
Devoted Ahmadi Muslim • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • Discord ID: Jolthig#9602
Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
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Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:24 am

Jolthig wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Most Muslims subscribe to Ashari aqidah, which rejects free will altogether in the conventional sense.

On animals?

Humans and jinn as well
Last edited by Al Mumtahanah on Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
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Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:30 am

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:No more than death is. I think something like 99% of species to ever live have gone extinct.

A strike against Allah.

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Who's calling it poorly designed?

Right now, me.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:And considering how often (in geological/evolutionary terms anyways) it happened, I'd say it's part of the natural cycle.
Like I said, a poorly designed one.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote: It's even beneficial for some animals.

Those that survive. Which, looking at statistics, is a terrible mark for Allah.

Zero animals survive ultimately, how is this an issue? An animal becoming food or compost for another animal does not cease to benefit benefitted parties just because they are mortal. Different eco systems adapted to different climates and conditions making way for each other due to extinction does not mean benefitted parties are not benefitted.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
A m e n r i a
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Posts: 4639
Founded: Jun 08, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby A m e n r i a » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:35 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Kowani wrote:A strike against Allah.


Right now, me.
Like I said, a poorly designed one.

Those that survive. Which, looking at statistics, is a terrible mark for Allah.

Zero animals survive ultimately, how is this an issue? An animal becoming food or compost for another animal does not cease to benefit benefitted parties just because they are mortal. Different eco systems adapted to different climates and conditions making way for each other due to extinction does not mean benefitted parties are not benefitted.


That and the fact that creatures change over the millennia, humans included. If God wanted to keep us as huge as Adam was, He would. He just figured there'd be no space since we breed like crazy. There's probably more reasons we don't know yet.
The Empire of Amenria (亚洲帝国)
Sinocentric Asian theocratic absolute monarchy. Set 28 years in the future. On-site factbooks are no longer canon. A 13.14 civilization, according to this index.
Nani!? A rules creepypasta set in R1!?
9Axes
Pro: Tradition, Confucianism, Islam, religion in general, pacifism, gender equality, cats
Neutral: Dogs, veganism
Anti: Westernism, the west, religious fundamentalism, secularism, feminism

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:38 am

Jolthig wrote:
Kowani wrote:A strike against Allah.


Right now, me.
Like I said, a poorly designed one.

Those that survive. Which, looking at statistics, is a terrible mark for Allah.

I mean, there aren't really "statistics" per say when it comes to ancient animals as there weren't really any surveyors to record the amount of deaths unless if they got killed too in the events. :p

99%

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Kowani wrote:A strike against Allah.


Right now, me.
Like I said, a poorly designed one.

Those that survive. Which, looking at statistics, is a terrible mark for Allah.

Zero animals survive ultimately, how is this an issue?

Why be born, if only to die? Of humans are the pinnacle of creation, why not start there? Why have millions of years of previous species who served no purpose but to die?
Al Mumtahanah wrote:An animal becoming food or compost for another animal does not cease to benefit benefitted parties just because they are mortal. Different eco systems adapted to different climates and conditions making way for each other due to extinction does not mean benefitted parties are not benefitted.

A 1% “success” rate is not a good ratio.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:50 am

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:I mean, there aren't really "statistics" per say when it comes to ancient animals as there weren't really any surveyors to record the amount of deaths unless if they got killed too in the events. :p

99%

Al Mumtahanah wrote:Zero animals survive ultimately, how is this an issue?

Why be born, if only to die? Of humans are the pinnacle of creation, why not start there? Why have millions of years of previous species who served no purpose but to die?
Al Mumtahanah wrote:An animal becoming food or compost for another animal does not cease to benefit benefitted parties just because they are mortal. Different eco systems adapted to different climates and conditions making way for each other due to extinction does not mean benefitted parties are not benefitted.

A 1% “success” rate is not a good ratio.

What do you mean if only to die? Animals have immortal souls and worship Allah (may He be glorified and exalted) and even bring charges against humans who wronged them when judgement comes due. They have their own peoples, their own stories, their own dramas, same as us.

Success is not defined by indefinate life.
Last edited by Al Mumtahanah on Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

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