Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Cappuccina]

I'd say as slavery isn't a fundamental aspect of Islam, we are free to make a moral choice on whether it is acceptable in modern society. In the spirit of the Quran, I don't see a way to justify its practice.

"Serve Allah(swt) . . . and do good - to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the way-farer, and what your right hands possess (4:36)"

Oh yeah, you're Muslim too For some reason I keep on forgetting that lol.

Like I said to Chularatchamontri, idc about modern soceity, I care about the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. And I have not found anywhere in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah where Islamic slavery is explicitly nor implicitly outlawed.

Also that ayah literally says "...do good - to...what your right hands possess". "What your right hands possess" was referring to slaves.

Yes, I happen to be Muslim. Like many other things, I don't parade things on my sig. It helps with people not assuming things about me before I even explain myself.

Yes, it is referring to slaves. However, the Quran is a progressive document with Allah (swt) revealing his preference as time passes, and it does lend to slavery being rather disfavored as a method of discourse between Muslims and between us and kaffireen. In the progression of the Quran, the Masters of slaves are given restrictions that more or less make it pointless to own slaves. We are all slaves only to Allah (swt).

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Oh yeah, you're Muslim too For some reason I keep on forgetting that lol.

Like I said to Chularatchamontri, idc about modern soceity, I care about the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. And I have not found anywhere in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah where Islamic slavery is explicitly nor implicitly outlawed.

Also that ayah literally says "...do good - to...what your right hands possess". "What your right hands possess" was referring to slaves.

Yes, I happen to be Muslim. Like many other things, I don't parade things on my sig. It helps with people not assuming things about me before I even explain myself.

Yes, it is referring to slaves. However, the Quran is a progressive document with Allah (swt) revealing his preference as time passes, and it does lend to slavery being rather disfavored as a method of discourse between Muslims and between us and kaffireen. In the progression of the Quran, the Masters of slaves are given restrictions that more or less make it pointless to own slaves. We are all slaves only to Allah (swt).

1: Yes, I have heard that reasoning befors, that the heavy restrictions on Islamic slavery make it impossible and pointless to even have one. The problem is that I don't see that as a valid reason to outlaw it. If neither Allah SWT nor Prophet Muhammad SAWS outlawed Islamic slavery, why should we?
2: For some reason we can't say "kaafir", "kaafiroon/kaafireen", it's a 'slur' according to the mods. So you probs take it off (or leave it on to protest the nonsensical rule).

[Cappuccina]

Yes, I happen to be Muslim. Like many other things, I don't parade things on my sig. It helps with people not assuming things about me before I even explain myself.

Yes, it is referring to slaves. However, the Quran is a progressive document with Allah (swt) revealing his preference as time passes, and it does lend to slavery being rather disfavored as a method of discourse between Muslims and between us and kaffireen. In the progression of the Quran, the Masters of slaves are given restrictions that more or less make it pointless to own slaves. We are all slaves only to Allah (swt).

1: Yes, I have heard that reasoning befors, that the heavy restrictions on Islamic slavery make it impossible and pointless to even have one. The problem is that I don't see that as a valid reason to outlaw it. If neither Allah SWT nor Prophet Muhammad SAWS outlawed Islamic slavery, why should we?
2: For some reason we can't say "kaafir", "kaafiroon/kaafireen", it's a 'slur' according to the mods. So you probs take it off (or leave it on to protest the nonsensical rule).

I see no reason to implement slavery as it isn't central to Islam as a faith, and given the choice to do so I'd say it adds nothing of spiritual value to an Islamic society and cause issues that can be avoided. It's evident that the Quran heavily suggests that slavery isn't something that is in line with it's revelation.

Fine, from now on I'll say "non-muslim".

[El-Amin Caliphate]

1: Yes, I have heard that reasoning befors, that the heavy restrictions on Islamic slavery make it impossible and pointless to even have one. The problem is that I don't see that as a valid reason to outlaw it. If neither Allah SWT nor Prophet Muhammad SAWS outlawed Islamic slavery, why should we?
2: For some reason we can't say "kaafir", "kaafiroon/kaafireen", it's a 'slur' according to the mods. So you probs take it off (or leave it on to protest the nonsensical rule).

I see no reason to implement slavery as it isn't central to Islam as a faith, and given the choice to do so I'd say it adds nothing of spiritual value to an Islamic society and cause issues that can be avoided. It's evident that the Quran heavily suggests that slavery isn't something that is in line with it's revelation.

I understand that, and I agree that slavery isn't central to Al-Islam nor is it preferred over freedom. However, I do not see why we should make Haraam what Allah SWT made Halaal (albeit makruh possibly).

[El-Amin Caliphate]

You should judge the truthfulness of a statement based on if it has evidence or if it concords with reality, not based on who said it.

Or both.

People often go on blind Faith, my preference is living in faith, revelation doesn't end in the words of scripture. Scripture is a light that allows one to see the path, but we must still see what is there. Idk if that makes sense.

You're making sense. In Al-Islam we are supposed to trust Allah SWT but also reflect on His signs and learn our Deen as well.

[Cappuccina]

Or both.

People often go on blind Faith, my preference is living in faith, revelation doesn't end in the words of scripture. Scripture is a light that allows one to see the path, but we must still see what is there. Idk if that makes sense.

You're making sense. In Al-Islam we are supposed to trust Allah SWT but also reflect on His signs and learn our Deen as well.

Exactly. I wasn't sure if my post made what I was thinking clear, lol. I'm not really great at explaining some of my more "esoteric" views on the divine.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

You're making sense. In Al-Islam we are supposed to trust Allah SWT but also reflect on His signs and learn our Deen as well.

Exactly. I wasn't sure if my post made what I was think clear, lol. I'm not really great at explaining some of my more "esoteric" views on the divine.

>"esoteric"
Are you a Sufi? Sry lol, just had to ask >w<

[Cappuccina]

Exactly. I wasn't sure if my post made what I was think clear, lol. I'm not really great at explaining some of my more "esoteric" views on the divine.

>"esoteric"
Are you a Sufi? Sry lol, just had to ask >w<

Why would I need to be a Sufi? Perhaps, esoteric wasn't the term I was looking for. Like I said, I'm pretty bad at explaining my thoughts, lol.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

>"esoteric"
Are you a Sufi? Sry lol, just had to ask >w<

Why would I need to be a Sufi? Perhaps, esoteric wasn't the term I was looking for. Like I said, I'm pretty bad at explaining my thoughts, lol.

Nah, I understand you, it's just that "esoteric" in an Islamic conversation automatically made my mind go to Sufis. They're a cool bunch, most of them.

[Cappuccina]

Why would I need to be a Sufi? Perhaps, esoteric wasn't the term I was looking for. Like I said, I'm pretty bad at explaining my thoughts, lol.

Nah, I understand you, it's just that "esoteric" in an Islamic conversation automatically made my mind go to Sufis. They're a cool bunch, most of them.

I do find much about their works to be refreshing perspective on the nature of Allah (swt), so yes they're pretty neat imo.

[Chularatchamontri]

The actions of the Sahaba were justified in their time, but the material conditions are different. Islam no longer needs slaves or any of that.

I never anything about what Al-Islam needs.

How is slavery fair and not extreme?

This is how:

Slavery in Al-Islam:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wic1CdJKufY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVo_-j2THE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pn1ubtoL95c
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9d6sZJRNYQ
https://islamqa.info/en/94840
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://www.al-islam.org/slavery-from-i ... ks-slavery
http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/1174 ... of-slavery
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://abuaminaelias.com/sexual-consen ... -in-islam/

It is far from acceptable, which makes it extreme.

Says who? Where in the Holy Qur'an and/or Sunnah is Islamic slavery (because this is the type of slavery I'm talking about, not slavery in general) deemed extreme?

The Qu'ran itself was a progressively revealed thing. Alcohol for example was phased out. Allah did not mean for us to be trapped in the time of revelation but to use the deen we were given to navigate changing times.

Do you advocate for restarting the slave trade and slavery?

[North German Realm]

The Qu'ran itself was a progressively revealed thing. Alcohol for example was phased out. Allah did not mean for us to be trapped in the time of revelation but to use the deen we were given to navigate changing times.

Do you advocate for restarting the slave trade and slavery?

This alone is kinda proof that Muhammad had no intention of even remotely doing anything about slavery other than regulating it and taking control of it for his own purposes. (He does, btw.)

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I never anything about what Al-Islam needs.

This is how:

Slavery in Al-Islam:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wic1CdJKufY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4sVo_-j2THE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pn1ubtoL95c
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9d6sZJRNYQ
https://islamqa.info/en/94840
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://www.al-islam.org/slavery-from-i ... ks-slavery
http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/1174 ... of-slavery
http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://abuaminaelias.com/sexual-consen ... -in-islam/

Says who? Where in the Holy Qur'an and/or Sunnah is Islamic slavery (because this is the type of slavery I'm talking about, not slavery in general) deemed extreme?

The Qu'ran itself was a progressively revealed thing. Alcohol for example was phased out. Allah did not mean for us to be trapped in the time of revelation but to use the deen we were given to navigate changing times.

Do you advocate for restarting the slave trade and slavery?

Slave trades are Haraam.
I would support the re-instatement of Islamic slavery but with very tight regulations. Either that or postpone its re-instatement until Muslims get our heads on straight about how to treat a slave.

Also that khamr analogy is equivalent imo. Khamr is explicitly stated as Haraam in the Holy Qur'an. There's even a Shari'ah punishment for it. Islamic slavery on the other is not explicitly stated as Haraam anywhere in the Holy Qur'an nor Sunnah.
Also, I said that I don't care about changing times. I care about what Al-Islam teaches.

[Cappuccina]

The Qu'ran itself was a progressively revealed thing. Alcohol for example was phased out. Allah did not mean for us to be trapped in the time of revelation but to use the deen we were given to navigate changing times.

Do you advocate for restarting the slave trade and slavery?

Slave trades are Haraam.
I would support the re-instatement of Islamic slavery but with very tight regulations. Either that or postpone its re-instatement until Muslims get our heads on straight about how to treat a slave.

Also that khamr analogy is equivalent imo. Khamr is explicitly stated as Haraam in the Holy Qur'an. There's even a Shari'ah punishment for it. Islamic slavery on the other is not explicitly stated as Haraam anywhere in the Holy Qur'an nor Sunnah.
Also, I said that I don't care about changing times. I care about what Al-Islam teaches.

Why put effort into implementation of slavery at all?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

So after the Eid prayer a shaykh gave the khutbah (I forgot his name tho ). Man, I felt real good realizing Incoukd understand around half of the Arabic he was speaking.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Slave trades are Haraam.
I would support the re-instatement of Islamic slavery but with very tight regulations. Either that or postpone its re-instatement until Muslims get our heads on straight about how to treat a slave.

Also that khamr analogy is equivalent imo. Khamr is explicitly stated as Haraam in the Holy Qur'an. There's even a Shari'ah punishment for it. Islamic slavery on the other is not explicitly stated as Haraam anywhere in the Holy Qur'an nor Sunnah.
Also, I said that I don't care about changing times. I care about what Al-Islam teaches.

Why put effort into implementation of slavery at all?

I do not see why we should make Haraam what Allah SWT made Halaal (albeit makruh possibly).

[Cappuccina]

Why put effort into implementation of slavery at all?

I do not see why we should make Haraam what Allah SWT made Halaal (albeit makruh possibly).

You seem to be active advocating that slavery be practiced, as in promoting it. Why?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

You seem to be active advocating that slavery be practiced, as in promoting it. Why?

*Islamic slavery. And I never said that Islamic slavery should be promoted, nor that it should be practiced. I said that it should be allowed with heavy restrictions, and slave-owners should be encouraged to free their slaves.

[Cappuccina]

You seem to be active advocating that slavery be practiced, as in promoting it. Why?

*Islamic slavery. And I never said that Islamic slavery should be promoted, nor that it should be practiced. I said that it should be allowed with heavy restrictions, and slave-owners should be encouraged to free their slaves.

Allowing it at all is a waste of time when you could simply have everyone "free".

[El-Amin Caliphate]

*Islamic slavery. And I never said that Islamic slavery should be promoted, nor that it should be practiced. I said that it should be allowed with heavy restrictions, and slave-owners should be encouraged to free their slaves.

Allowing it at all is a waste of time when you could simply have everyone "free".

And not allowing it is shirk.

[Hirota]

There are plenty of Imans who will say ISIS is the one true form of Islam. How does an outsider decide which khutba-wearing spiderman pointing at another khutba-wearing spiderman is correct?

Evidence based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah of course. Also, khutbahs aren't articles of clothing, they're religious talks held by an imaam.

A) Shows why I should be more vigilant whilst googling when trying to work out Iman fashion trends.
B) If imams are supposed to be "leaders" when it comes to spiritual guidance (how much of a role I understand varies upon which particular flavour of Islam you subscribe to), then that implies they should be experts/informed in their field, and thus generally equally capable of drawing upon the various texts to justify view A or view B.

In that regard, your response doesn't really say anything at all. Both Spider-imans (that pun made me chuckle and I don't want to admit how long I've had that in the back of my head) can use evidence from the Quran etc etc to justify their positions. It doesn't demonstrate which one is right.

Just to be clear though - this vagueness isn't something I'd say is unique to Islam. I believe religion in general operates on the principle of obfuscation to keep people in the dark.

[Samudera Darussalam]

And not allowing it is shirk.

Yes, but we can just take the middle ground. Though 'slavery' is not outrightly banned, Islam tends toward the liberation of slaves, so why would one bother in keeping them, currently?

In that regard, your response doesn't really say anything at all. Both Spider-imans (that pun made me chuckle and I don't want to admit how long I've had that in the back of my head) can use evidence from the Quran etc etc to justify their positions. It doesn't demonstrate which one is right.

Watch your language. If I start seeing spiderman in some Muslim attire, it's your fault

[Negarakita]

And not allowing it is shirk.

Yes, but we can just take the middle ground. Though 'slavery' is not outrightly banned, Islam tends toward the liberation of slaves, so why would one bother in keeping them, currently?

In that regard, your response doesn't really say anything at all. Both Spider-imans (that pun made me chuckle and I don't want to admit how long I've had that in the back of my head) can use evidence from the Quran etc etc to justify their positions. It doesn't demonstrate which one is right.

Watch your language. If I start seeing spiderman in some Muslim attire, it's your fault

When you realise only Allah can defeat Thanos

[Samudera Darussalam]

When you realise only Allah can defeat Thanos
(Image)

Gosh, I forgot that meme. Still as hilarious as the first time I saw it.
Muslims nowadays

Edited:
Also, because it's just a day after Eid, I think it'll be better if I apologize for all the wrongdoings that I may have committed.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

And not allowing it is shirk.

Yes, but we can just take the middle ground. Though 'slavery' is not outrightly banned, Islam tends toward the liberation of slaves, so why would one bother in keeping them, currently?

In that regard, your response doesn't really say anything at all. Both Spider-imans (that pun made me chuckle and I don't want to admit how long I've had that in the back of my head) can use evidence from the Quran etc etc to justify their positions. It doesn't demonstrate which one is right.

Watch your language. If I start seeing spiderman in some Muslim attire, it's your fault

If Islam tends toward liberation of slaves, it has been gravely misunderstood by many majority Muslim nations.