Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Jolthig]

I'll be celebrating yes, but I'll be doing security duty for my mosque during the prayers

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Not unless those articles are Islamic arguments against slavery.

There's both: against and for.

A bit odd for a holy book to be so open to interpretation on such a vital topic.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

There's both: against and for.

A bit odd for a holy book to be so open to interpretation on such a vital topic.

I wouldn't really consider it vital. Personally tho I don't see any evidence for Islamic slavery being outlawed now.

[Jolthig]

A bit odd for a holy book to be so open to interpretation on such a vital topic.

I wouldn't really consider it vital. Personally tho I don't see any evidence for Islamic slavery being outlawed now.

In my personal opinion, actually I'm pretty convinced it's fact, Islamic slavery is only meant to progressively abolish slavery and not keep slavery in its place because slaves were to be educated and given the same clothing as free people. Once their training its completed, it was often encouraged they be set free. Especially when their masters help their slaves to find spouses to eventually free them and make them like them.

I feel there's no other reason to have slavery in an Islamic country with Shariah law when Islam is technically against the concept of slavery as Allah is the one whom we should wilfully be slaves to.

[Zizou]

I wouldn't really consider it vital. Personally tho I don't see any evidence for Islamic slavery being outlawed now.

In my personal opinion, actually I'm pretty convinced it's fact, Islamic slavery is only meant to progressively abolish slavery and not keep slavery in its place because slaves were to be educated and given the same clothing as free people. Once their training its completed, it was often encouraged they be set free. Especially when their masters help their slaves to find spouses to eventually free them and make them like them.

I feel there's no other reason to have slavery in an Islamic country with Shariah law when Islam is technically against the concept of slavery as Allah is the one whom we should wilfully be slaves to.

Also the fact that the Qur’an was a book meant for people of all times and places. In certain societies, such as the Arab society, giving up slaves all at once would’ve been a near impossibility. Instead of making the religion hard to follow, Allah (SWT) was conscious of this fact, and opted to improve the conditions of slaves in the interim and encouraged them to be freed. It’s good that slavery has been largely abolished, and to reintroduce slavery to Islamic society is to go backwards in progress. The 6 aims of the Shari’ah are the preservation of faith, life, intellect, property, family, and dignity. In the past, dignity was preserved by ensuring that slaves were not treated badly, and now, we should go further and ensure that dignity is preserved by ensuring that slaves are not kept in the first place.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I wouldn't really consider it vital. Personally tho I don't see any evidence for Islamic slavery being outlawed now.

In my personal opinion, actually I'm pretty convinced it's fact, Islamic slavery is only meant to progressively abolish slavery and not keep slavery in its place because slaves were to be educated and given the same clothing as free people. Once their training its completed, it was often encouraged they be set free. Especially when their masters help their slaves to find spouses to eventually free them and make them like them.

I feel there's no other reason to have slavery in an Islamic country with Shariah law when Islam is technically against the concept of slavery as Allah is the one whom we should wilfully be slaves to.

True but educating your slave and treating them like humans doesn't negate slavery. Also I thought that slaves marrying other slaves doesn't make them free.

In my personal opinion, actually I'm pretty convinced it's fact, Islamic slavery is only meant to progressively abolish slavery and not keep slavery in its place because slaves were to be educated and given the same clothing as free people. Once their training its completed, it was often encouraged they be set free. Especially when their masters help their slaves to find spouses to eventually free them and make them like them.

I feel there's no other reason to have slavery in an Islamic country with Shariah law when Islam is technically against the concept of slavery as Allah is the one whom we should wilfully be slaves to.

Also the fact that the Qur’an was a book meant for people of all times and places. In certain societies, such as the Arab society, giving up slaves all at once would’ve been a near impossibility. Instead of making the religion hard to follow, Allah (SWT) was conscious of this fact, and opted to improve the conditions of slaves in the interim and encouraged them to be freed. It’s good that slavery has been largely abolished, and to reintroduce slavery to Islamic society is to go backwards in progress. The 6 aims of the Shari’ah are the preservation of faith, life, intellect, property, family, and dignity. In the past, dignity was preserved by ensuring that slaves were not treated badly, and now, we should go further and ensure that dignity is preserved by ensuring that slaves are not kept in the first place.

On what basis? I support freeing slaves as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong there. However I don't see how treating slaves fee sabeelillah negates slavery.

[Zizou]

In my personal opinion, actually I'm pretty convinced it's fact, Islamic slavery is only meant to progressively abolish slavery and not keep slavery in its place because slaves were to be educated and given the same clothing as free people. Once their training its completed, it was often encouraged they be set free. Especially when their masters help their slaves to find spouses to eventually free them and make them like them.

I feel there's no other reason to have slavery in an Islamic country with Shariah law when Islam is technically against the concept of slavery as Allah is the one whom we should wilfully be slaves to.

True but educating your slave and treating them like humans doesn't negate slavery. Also I thought that slaves marrying other slaves doesn't make them free.

Also the fact that the Qur’an was a book meant for people of all times and places. In certain societies, such as the Arab society, giving up slaves all at once would’ve been a near impossibility. Instead of making the religion hard to follow, Allah (SWT) was conscious of this fact, and opted to improve the conditions of slaves in the interim and encouraged them to be freed. It’s good that slavery has been largely abolished, and to reintroduce slavery to Islamic society is to go backwards in progress. The 6 aims of the Shari’ah are the preservation of faith, life, intellect, property, family, and dignity. In the past, dignity was preserved by ensuring that slaves were not treated badly, and now, we should go further and ensure that dignity is preserved by ensuring that slaves are not kept in the first place.

On what basis? I support freeing slaves as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong there. However I don't see how treating slaves fee sabeelillah negates slavery.

Because keeping slaves is considered an affront to dignity, which the Shari’ah aims to preserve.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

True but educating your slave and treating them like humans doesn't negate slavery. Also I thought that slaves marrying other slaves doesn't make them free.

On what basis? I support freeing slaves as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong there. However I don't see how treating slaves fee sabeelillah negates slavery.

Because keeping slaves is considered an affront to dignity, which the Shari’ah aims to preserve.

How so, when Al-Islam has many regulations on treatment of slaves, which in turn preserves their dignity?

[North German Realm]

Because keeping slaves is considered an affront to dignity, which the Shari’ah aims to preserve.

How so, when Al-Islam has many regulations on treatment of slaves, which in turn preserves their dignity?

Because they fucking keep slaves, dammit. If it has slavery in it -no, scratch that, it if doesn't go against the very institution of slavery as a whole-, it is not moral. Doesn't matter what religion, doesn't matter what sect.


Anyway, with that out of the way, Happy "I'm allowed to eat again!" day. Fun fact, millions of Iranian Muslims fasted on the only day in the year where fasting is haraam a day ago because the Regime didn't want the Fitr ( a generally celebratory day) to collide on the day Khomeini kicked the bucket (Affectionately called 'Heartfart day' in Farsi, don't ask why) and so started -and finished- Ramadan a day late

[Zizou]

Because keeping slaves is considered an affront to dignity, which the Shari’ah aims to preserve.

How so, when Al-Islam has many regulations on treatment of slaves, which in turn preserves their dignity?

It has regulations on the conditions of slaves, yes. However, the thing that offends their dignity is not the conditions they’re kept in, but rather the very idea of being able to buy and sell humans,
and keep them as property.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

How so, when Al-Islam has many regulations on treatment of slaves, which in turn preserves their dignity?

It has regulations on the conditions of slaves, yes. However, the thing that offends their dignity is not the conditions they’re kept in, but rather the very idea of being able to buy and sell humans,
and keep them as property.

Well if it goes against the dignity of being human then Allah SWT would've outlawed it, would He not? Why would Allah SWT allow something indignified on a human?

[North German Realm]

It has regulations on the conditions of slaves, yes. However, the thing that offends their dignity is not the conditions they’re kept in, but rather the very idea of being able to buy and sell humans,
and keep them as property.

Well if it goes against the dignity of being human then Allah SWT would've outlawed it, would He not? Why would Allah SWT allow something indignified on a human?

The Correct answer would be "Because Allah is a fictional character and Muhammad didn't give a flying fuck about humans, dignity, or any mixture thereof", but "Because Slavery is an integral part of Islam's very idea, 'Submission', and thus it would be illogical to do anything other than regulate it", would make much more sense. Given what Muhammad and Muslims in general did regarding slavery (until the Kuffar managed to make them stop it at the other end of the cannon), it checks out.

[Zizou]

It has regulations on the conditions of slaves, yes. However, the thing that offends their dignity is not the conditions they’re kept in, but rather the very idea of being able to buy and sell humans,
and keep them as property.

Well if it goes against the dignity of being human then Allah SWT would've outlawed it, would He not? Why would Allah SWT allow something indignified on a human?

Because as I said earlier, the Qur’an is a book which is meant for all societies throughout all time periods. During some time periods, slavery was so pervasive that it could not be eliminated immediately without causing rebellion and tumult throughout society. So, in the interim, slavery was permitted, while the conditions of slaves were improved, as so to begin the process of increasing their dignity. Now that slavery is not pervasive, we must finish the job, and fully preserve their dignity by not engaging in the practice.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well if it goes against the dignity of being human then Allah SWT would've outlawed it, would He not? Why would Allah SWT allow something indignified on a human?

Because as I said earlier, the Qur’an is a book which is meant for all societies throughout all time periods. During some time periods, slavery was so pervasive that it could not be eliminated immediately without causing rebellion and tumult throughout society. So, in the interim, slavery was permitted, while the conditions of slaves were improved, as so to begin the process of increasing their dignity. Now that slavery is not pervasive, we must finish the job, and fully preserve their dignity by not engaging in the practice.

Ok but this can go the other way too: the Holy Qur'an is for all times, and since slavery isn't ordered to be abolished in the Holy Qur'an, there's no real reason to abolish it. Afaik Prophet Muhammad SAWS didn't say anything about abolishing slavery either.

[North German Realm]

Because as I said earlier, the Qur’an is a book which is meant for all societies throughout all time periods. During some time periods, slavery was so pervasive that it could not be eliminated immediately without causing rebellion and tumult throughout society. So, in the interim, slavery was permitted, while the conditions of slaves were improved, as so to begin the process of increasing their dignity. Now that slavery is not pervasive, we must finish the job, and fully preserve their dignity by not engaging in the practice.

Ok but this can go the other way too: the Holy Qur'an is for all times, and since slavery isn't ordered to be abolished in the Holy Qur'an, there's no real reason to abolish it. Afaik Prophet Muhammad SAWS didn't say anything about abolishing slavery either.

All that does is prove that Quran wasn't "for all times" though.

[Zizou]

Well if it goes against the dignity of being human then Allah SWT would've outlawed it, would He not? Why would Allah SWT allow something indignified on a human?

The Correct answer would be "Because Allah is a fictional character and Muhammad didn't give a flying fuck about humans, dignity, or any mixture thereof", but "Because Slavery is an integral part of Islam's very idea, 'Submission', and thus it would be illogical to do anything other than regulate it", would make much more sense. Given what Muhammad and Muslims in general did regarding slavery (until the Kuffar managed to make them stop it at the other end of the cannon), it checks out.

Islam promotes the idea of submission insofar as Muslims are those who submit their will to Allah (SWT). The failure to stop slavery sooner is a shortcoming of this ummah.

[Zizou]

Because as I said earlier, the Qur’an is a book which is meant for all societies throughout all time periods. During some time periods, slavery was so pervasive that it could not be eliminated immediately without causing rebellion and tumult throughout society. So, in the interim, slavery was permitted, while the conditions of slaves were improved, as so to begin the process of increasing their dignity. Now that slavery is not pervasive, we must finish the job, and fully preserve their dignity by not engaging in the practice.

Ok but this can go the other way too: the Holy Qur'an is for all times, and since slavery isn't ordered to be abolished in the Holy Qur'an, there's no real reason to abolish it. Afaik Prophet Muhammad SAWS didn't say anything about abolishing slavery either.

If Islam wasn’t concerned with abolishing slavery, why would it go out of it’s way to encourage the freeing of slaves?

[North German Realm]

The Correct answer would be "Because Allah is a fictional character and Muhammad didn't give a flying fuck about humans, dignity, or any mixture thereof", but "Because Slavery is an integral part of Islam's very idea, 'Submission', and thus it would be illogical to do anything other than regulate it", would make much more sense. Given what Muhammad and Muslims in general did regarding slavery (until the Kuffar managed to make them stop it at the other end of the cannon), it checks out.

Islam promotes the idea of submission insofar as Muslims are those who submit their will to Allah (SWT). The failure to stop slavery sooner is a shortcoming of this ummah.

A study of Islamic history proves that this was less a shortcoming and more a by-design action using the decisions and actions taken by Muhammad and the Rashidun (Who, barring exceptions, everyone accept as "True Islamic States we should all try to emulate") as a precedent.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Ok but this can go the other way too: the Holy Qur'an is for all times, and since slavery isn't ordered to be abolished in the Holy Qur'an, there's no real reason to abolish it. Afaik Prophet Muhammad SAWS didn't say anything about abolishing slavery either.

If Islam wasn’t concerned with abolishing slavery, why would it go out of it’s way to encourage the freeing of slaves?

Encouraging the freeing of slaves doesn't necessarily abolish it, tho. Like yeah, there's a bunch of barakah in manumission but you can still keep a slave if you want.

If Al-Islam is concerned with abolishing slavery, why didn't it do it outright? And if the reason is because it's supposed to be gradual, where is the daleel for gradual abolishment?

[Zizou]

Islam promotes the idea of submission insofar as Muslims are those who submit their will to Allah (SWT). The failure to stop slavery sooner is a shortcoming of this ummah.

A study of Islamic history proves that this was less a shortcoming and more a by-design action using the decisions and actions taken by Muhammad and the Rashidun (Who, barring exceptions, everyone accept as "True Islamic States we should all try to emulate") as a precedent.

How so? By conservative (very conservative) numbers, the Prophet and some of his close companions alone liberated 32,320 slaves. If everyone followed such an example, slaves should have been freed at an almost alarming rate.

[Zizou]

If Islam wasn’t concerned with abolishing slavery, why would it go out of it’s way to encourage the freeing of slaves?

Encouraging the freeing of slaves doesn't necessarily abolish it, tho. Like yeah, there's a bunch of barakah in manumission but you can still keep a slave if you want.

If Al-Islam is concerned with abolishing slavery, why didn't it do it outright? And if the reason is because it's supposed to be gradual, where is the daleel for gradual abolishment?

That it was necessary to do so gradually because of how embedded it was in the fabric of society. Things like idolatry had spiritual roots, and thus could easily be quickly eliminated through discussion and debate. What motivated slavery on the other hand, was not a flawed mentality, but rather many social, political, and economic factors that must be resolved first. As such, it would not be wise to to immediately ban slavery while these factors were still present.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Encouraging the freeing of slaves doesn't necessarily abolish it, tho. Like yeah, there's a bunch of barakah in manumission but you can still keep a slave if you want.

If Al-Islam is concerned with abolishing slavery, why didn't it do it outright? And if the reason is because it's supposed to be gradual, where is the daleel for gradual abolishment?

That it was necessary to do so gradually because of how embedded it was in the fabric of society. Things like idolatry had spiritual roots, and thus could easily be quickly eliminated through discussion and debate. What motivated slavery on the other hand, was not a flawed mentality, but rather many social, political, and economic factors that must be resolved first. As such, it would not be wise to to immediately ban slavery while these factors were still present.

Well then that goes to the next part of my question:

And if the reason is because it's supposed to be gradual, where is the daleel for gradual abolishment?

[North German Realm]

A study of Islamic history proves that this was less a shortcoming and more a by-design action using the decisions and actions taken by Muhammad and the Rashidun (Who, barring exceptions, everyone accept as "True Islamic States we should all try to emulate") as a precedent.

How so? By conservative (very conservative) numbers, the Prophet and some of his close companions alone liberated 32,320 slaves. If everyone followed such an example, slaves should have been freed at an almost alarming rate.

Maybe so (and I'd appreciate a source for that 'conservative' number), but he (and the Rashidun) also created, funded, and began the maintaining of the Arab-Muslim slave trade after getting access to the Mediterranean (which means Slavery became a state industry too, if you will), which negates "slaves personally freed by Muhammad" point in my opinion.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yaa ikhwaani, what are y'all gonna be doing for Eid?

[Jolthig]

In my personal opinion, actually I'm pretty convinced it's fact, Islamic slavery is only meant to progressively abolish slavery and not keep slavery in its place because slaves were to be educated and given the same clothing as free people. Once their training its completed, it was often encouraged they be set free. Especially when their masters help their slaves to find spouses to eventually free them and make them like them.

I feel there's no other reason to have slavery in an Islamic country with Shariah law when Islam is technically against the concept of slavery as Allah is the one whom we should wilfully be slaves to.

True but educating your slave and treating them like humans doesn't negate slavery. Also I thought that slaves marrying other slaves doesn't make them free.

Also the fact that the Qur’an was a book meant for people of all times and places. In certain societies, such as the Arab society, giving up slaves all at once would’ve been a near impossibility. Instead of making the religion hard to follow, Allah (SWT) was conscious of this fact, and opted to improve the conditions of slaves in the interim and encouraged them to be freed. It’s good that slavery has been largely abolished, and to reintroduce slavery to Islamic society is to go backwards in progress. The 6 aims of the Shari’ah are the preservation of faith, life, intellect, property, family, and dignity. In the past, dignity was preserved by ensuring that slaves were not treated badly, and now, we should go further and ensure that dignity is preserved by ensuring that slaves are not kept in the first place.

On what basis? I support freeing slaves as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong there. However I don't see how treating slaves fee sabeelillah negates slavery.

Then, I fail to see what other point there is in keeping slavery, Amin akh. The Shariah is meant to be applicable to all societies regardless of their circumstances which includes whether or not they have slavery. Let's say Shariah was established in the West today. There'd be no point in establishing slavery because there wasn't any slavery to begin with. However, if Islamic slavery were applied to a country that has slavery, then yes, Islamic slavery should be implanted to ensure the eventual freedom of the eubayd.

You're right. Just because someone marries a slave, doesn't mean they're free. I'm sure there is other circumstances involved that may delay their freedom. Nonetheless, given, we follow the Sunnah of Rasulallah, he freed female slaves by marrying them, thus freeing all their family. If this isn't a process to abolish slavery, then idk what else to say?