NATION

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Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What denomination of Islam are you part of?

Sunni
250
44%
Salafi
17
3%
Shi'a
48
8%
Qur'ani
13
2%
Ahmadi
9
2%
IbaaDi
10
2%
Sufi (either Sunni or Shi'a)
30
5%
Non-Denominational
87
15%
Other
102
18%
 
Total votes : 566

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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:07 am

Continental Free States wrote:Islam, when it was being created, was very much an Arab centric religion. It was an ethnic religion with a mandate to universalize because fundamentally speaking it had been developed to justify the conquest of the Near East and North Africa and the colonization thereof by Arab Muslims. This is the essential reason why Quran is in Arabic (and why you need to have some understanding of High Arabic to be able to translate and interpret it to any degree), why Quran claims Arabic is the "perfect" language [despite such a statement not actually meaning anything linguistically], why much of Islam's oldest religious rulings originate from either pre-Islamic Arab traditions that have been reformed to fit a people who are no longer polytheists living a tribal life but are now monotheists in possession of Empire. It's essentially the primary reason for the genocide, displacement, dhimmitude and oppression of the MENA's native and non-Muslim people and the conquest and colonization of their homelands their at the hands of Arab Muslims going back the last 14 centuries. The problem, of course, rises when you consider that Islam... stopped being an ethnic religion, or even a universalist religion built to justify ongoing conquest and colonization by an ethnicity, roughly around the time the Third Fitna began. Islam as it is practiced in most of Iran, Central Asia and the Caucasus, or in Turkey and parts of the Balkans, or in India, Pakistan and Southeast Asia, or in much of Subsaharan Africa, is not, and has (other than in parts of Iran during the first few centuries) never been an ethnoreligion.

Islam is not an Arab-centric religion. The Qur’ân itself explains the fact it’s in Arabic as:
“Now if We had made it a Quran in a non-Arabic tongue they would surely have said, “Why is it that its verses have not been made clear? Why –an Arab speaking to us in a language other than Arabic?”

One hilarious historical account shows just how quickly non-Arabs were spearheading the scholarship of Islam:
Ibn Abi Layla wrote:Īsa ibn Musa [not to be confused with Īsa ibn Maryam] said to me, and he was a religious man who was an Arab supremacist, “Who is the leader of the jurists of Basra?”

I said, “Al-Hasan ibn Abi Al-Hasan.”

He said “Then who?”

I said “Muhammad ibn Sireen.”

He said, “What are these two?” I said, “They are both Persians & freed slaves.”

He said, “And who is the leaders of the jurists of Mecca?”

I said, “’Ata’ ibn Rabah.”

He said “Then who?” I said

“Mujahid, Sa’eed ibn Jubair, and Sulaiman ibn Yassar.”

He said, “What are they?”

I said, “Nubians and Persians.”

He said, “And who are the jurists of Medina?”

I said, “Zaid ibn Aslam, Muhammad ibn Al-Munkadar, and Nafi’ ibn Abi Junaih.”

He said, “What are they?” I said, “Non-Arab freed slaves.”

The color of his face began to change and he said, “And who is the leader of the jurists of Quba?”

I said, “Rabia Ar-Ra’i and Ibn Abi Az-Zinad.”
He said, “What are they?”

I said, “Among the non-Arabs.”

Then his face darkened and he said, “And who is the jurist of Yemen?”

I said, “Tawus, his sons, and Ibn Munabbih.”

He said, “What are they? Are they Arabs?” I said, “They’re not Arabs either.”

His veins throbbed, he stood up from his seat, and he said, “And what about Khorasan? Who is the leaders of the jurists of Khorasan?”

I said, “‘Ata’ ibn Abdullah Al-Khurasani.”

He said, “What is this ‘Ata’?” I said, “A non-Arab freed slave.”

His face became more inflamed and darker, and he paced around. I began to feel scared for him. He asked, “And who is the leader of the jurists of Syria?”

I said, “Makhul.”

He said, “What is Makhul?” I said, “He isn’t Arab, either.”

He began to have difficulty breathing and he said, “And who is the leader of the jurists of Kufa?”

By Allah, I would have said Al-Hakim ibn ‘Utbah and ‘Ammar ibn Abi Salman, but I feared that I may kill him. I said, “He is Ibrahim ibn An-Nakha’i and Ash-Sha’bi.”

He said, “What are they?” I said, “They are both Arabs.”

He said, “Allah is the greatest!” Then he finally calmed down and sat.


Speaking of Kufa, Kufa is one of the main reasons any Arab supremacist ideologies persisted.
A difficult city near Karbala & Basra, the Rashidun caliphs had sent Sahabah after Sahabah to bring order to Kufa, with no luck until ibn Masūd. However, there eventually became even more instability around the area of Kufa. From the martyrdom of Hussayn (A & may God be pleased with him) at Karbala, to the Kufa-Basra area soon becoming the base for the Ālawis (not to be confused with modern day Ālawis), the Ābbasis (Abbasids), the Khwarij (who were basically 8th century ISIS), the Mūtazila (people who believed that the Qur’ân was created, no one could see God, etc etc). Kufa also became a center of fabrication: people fabricated large amounts of Hadiths, especially ones that asserted the superiority of Arabs & inferiority of Abyssinians & Persians (such as one that claims the language of Jannah is Arabic while the language of Hell is Farsi).
Luckily the authentic Hadith books didn’t adopt them, but at a time before the four modern Sunni Madhabs, it was an annoying problem for Iraq. Enter the Ahl ar-Raî. One of the 3 Madhabs before the modern ones, they developed in, of course, the Iraq-Kufa area. Their name meant “People of Opinion”, though this name given to them somewhat derogatorily by the Ahl al-Hadith (“People of Hadith”, who were largely based in the Hijaz) is a bit of misnomer, as they weren’t about opinion per se, but rather rationally examining the context of Hadith & Qur’ân verses, and refusing to accept any Hadith they weren’t 100% certain was authentic (such as the ones calling Arabs superior). They were opposed in Iraq by the Ahl al-Dhahir (“People of What it Looks Like”), who believed that looking at the context of anything was haram and made you a kaffir. Speaking of Takfir, the Ahl al-Hadith, based far away from Kufa & the problems there, initially frequently takfired the Ahl al-Raî, under the impression they rejected the Hadiths all together. However, when scholars from both Madhabs actually met, they quickly realized they had mistaken beliefs about them.

Anyway, the universality of Islam is enshrined in the Qur’ân, and was long before Muhammad (S) had a state of his own, let alone control over all of Arabia. It would be illogical for Muhammad (S) to invent the idea of Islam’s universality to justify conquering the entire world when he was still in Makkah getting beaten up for praying at the Kaaba.
Makkan chapters of the Qur’ân call him “a warner for the UNIVERSE” etc, such as Surah al-Anbya, a Surah revealed in Makkah calling him “a mercy to all of mankind”.

His last khutbah asserting “Nor is there any superiority of a white over a black. Nor is there any superiority of a black over a white,” was not just words, it was an affirmation: non-Arabs aren’t inferior to Arabs. Under Ūmar ibn al-Khattab, he ordered that the languages, cultures, religions & cultural sites of the conquered regions not be harmed, specifically ordering in regards to Persia that they not be forced to adopt Arab culture or names.
Al-Jahiz, the same guy who essentially invented the theory of evolution, wrote a book in response to rising anti-black sentiments titled “the Superiority of Blacks [East Africans] Over Whites [Arabs]” (note that “pure” Arabs referred to themselves as “white”, Afro-Arabs, dark skinned Arab tribes, and Sub-Saharan Africans as “black” & Europeans as “red”), a largely satirical title to a book focused on striking down misconceptions as stereotypes about Islam, and reminding Arabs about just how many Africans & Afro-Arabs were prominent Sahaba).
However, of course things were not perpetually happy fun times: Zanj Africans would end up revolting against the Abbasids in the Zanj Revolt, taking control of Basra, Iraq (like I said, the region was quite volatile) for a couple decades.
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:24 am

Sordhau wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
These aren't exceptions, the Islamic world is extremely diverse like any other part of the world.

Any place which converts to a world religion absorbs elements from the civilization that it came from. Christian Europeans are extremely influenced by Hebrew and Latin culture for instance.


I never said it wasn't diverse, I said Arabization follows the spread of Islam. This was especially true during the Caliphates. Whole languages, cultures, and religions have either been exterminated or reduced to minority status in their own native lands through the spread of Islam. Christian Europe did the same thing. The difference is religion was the motivator for Islamic conquests rather than a justification for them like it was with Christian Europe.

And Islam wasn't a world religion when it began it's conquests.

Arabization followed Islam when Arabs were the ones spreading it, and only a few decades after the Umayyads were in charge.
the process of Islamisation in the early period [Rashidun & early Umayyads mainly] was slow, complex, and often non-violent. Forced conversion was fairly uncommon, and religious change was driven far more by factors such as intermarriage, economic self-interest, and political allegiance.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/arts-blog/how ... tly-muslim
That’s from the University of Oxford’s website.

As I explained earlier, the culture of whoever was bringing the religion came with them. Arabization occurred in the Levant, Egypt, Sudan, Chad, Libya, Maghreb and Iraq. It was initially not attempted in Iran and failed when it was. Turkification came to the Balkans and Black Sea. Berberization to West Africa, then Hausafication, Indofication to the Pacific (as you can tell I’m pulling a Shakespeare and making up words, but you get the idea).

Even in places Arabization took place, it was often barely actually there, as it’s kinda hard to delete entire cultures when periods of suppression are followed by periods of rulers who will let you do whatever you want. For example, in Palestine, most Arabs have DNA from Jews who either married Arabs, simply converted to Islam while seeing themselves as ethnically Jewish, Sephardis who fled from the Catholics to the Muslims, and Jews forced to pretend to be Muslim by forced conversions.
The Palestinians recall that their ancestors & grandparents used to not light fires on the Sabbath. These Palestinians sometimes still have Jewish prayer book & minorahs, and sales for matzah in Gaza skyrocket around Passover.
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Harjanika
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Postby Harjanika » Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:34 am

Salam everyone, Ramadan Mubarak
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:33 pm

Harjanika wrote:Salam everyone, Ramadan Mubarak

Ramadhaan Mubarak!
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A m e n r i a
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Postby A m e n r i a » Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:57 pm

Harjanika wrote:Salam everyone, Ramadan Mubarak


Ramadhan Mubarak
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Samudera Darussalam
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:43 am

Islamic Holy Sites wrote:Inshaallah you all have a nice laylatul Qadr!

Ameen, thanks. You too.

Harjanika wrote:Salam everyone, Ramadan Mubarak

Salaam, Ramadan Mubarak.

Speaking of racism in the history of Islam as have been discussed above, I've heard and read in passing about Al Jahiz and his book that tries to refute the supposed inferiority of Zanji, but tbh this is the first time I've heard "pure" Arabs calling themselves "whites" (and the racism itself is still prevalent in certain regions, with Sudan being a notable example recently). Funny, that.
Last edited by Samudera Darussalam on Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hwiteard
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Postby Hwiteard » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:51 pm

I should reread Chasing a Mirage. Maybe then I won't make such a fool of myself again.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:59 pm

Insaanistan wrote:The Arab Slave Trade did in fact exist, and still does. Though the Oxford Dictionary of Islam says slavery in the Islamic world is “virtually extinct”, the adjective virtually means it’s still there.


It is 100% not "virtually extinct". Most of the Gulf States actively engage in the slave trade in some form and it's also ongoing in Northern Africa as well, Qatar especially has made news in the past few years for being a hub of it.
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A m e n r i a
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Postby A m e n r i a » Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:27 am

Samudera Darussalam wrote:
Islamic Holy Sites wrote:Inshaallah you all have a nice laylatul Qadr!

Ameen, thanks. You too.

Harjanika wrote:Salam everyone, Ramadan Mubarak

Salaam, Ramadan Mubarak.

Speaking of racism in the history of Islam as have been discussed above, I've heard and read in passing about Al Jahiz and his book that tries to refute the supposed inferiority of Zanji, but tbh this is the first time I've heard "pure" Arabs calling themselves "whites" (and the racism itself is still prevalent in certain regions, with Sudan being a notable example recently). Funny, that.


I mean, right now there's still far right nutjobs who wishes for Soeharto 2.0...
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Samudera Darussalam
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:18 pm

A m e n r i a wrote:
I mean, right now there's still far right nutjobs who wishes for Soeharto 2.0...

There is always some people like that. It's not like our society in large recognizes, much less have a reflection on our nation's dark past during the New Order. Even now, some ultranationalists are high on Arabophobia, wishing to subject the Arab-Indonesians to the treatment that the Nazi gave to the European Jews (the Tsamara Amany case, if you have yet to know). It's disgusting but I'm not really surprised.
Last edited by Samudera Darussalam on Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ansarullah
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Postby Ansarullah » Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:09 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:The Arab Slave Trade did in fact exist, and still does. Though the Oxford Dictionary of Islam says slavery in the Islamic world is “virtually extinct”, the adjective virtually means it’s still there.


It is 100% not "virtually extinct". Most of the Gulf States actively engage in the slave trade in some form and it's also ongoing in Northern Africa as well, Qatar especially has made news in the past few years for being a hub of it.

It's still widespread throughout the entire world, only in different forms.
Just using the traditional definition, it's extremely common in areas controlled by people like Daesh and Western puppets like the old Ghani government.
That's not even counting the fact that a significant portion of people in the West are basically slaves with the nicer name of "employee".
Not that it's much less common in places like China, just marginally better.
Last edited by Ansarullah on Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:20 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Insaanistan wrote:The Arab Slave Trade did in fact exist, and still does. Though the Oxford Dictionary of Islam says slavery in the Islamic world is “virtually extinct”, the adjective virtually means it’s still there.


It is 100% not "virtually extinct". Most of the Gulf States actively engage in the slave trade in some form and it's also ongoing in Northern Africa as well, Qatar especially has made news in the past few years for being a hub of it.

The Kaffala system is disgusting and de facto slavery.
The problem is that because of the nature of it, it often flies under the radar as “not technically slavery”.
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A m e n r i a
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Postby A m e n r i a » Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:16 am

Ansarullah wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
It is 100% not "virtually extinct". Most of the Gulf States actively engage in the slave trade in some form and it's also ongoing in Northern Africa as well, Qatar especially has made news in the past few years for being a hub of it.

It's still widespread throughout the entire world, only in different forms.
Just using the traditional definition, it's extremely common in areas controlled by people like Daesh and Western puppets like the old Ghani government.
That's not even counting the fact that a significant portion of people in the West are basically slaves with the nicer name of "employee".
Not that it's much less common in places like China, just marginally better.


Employee? You mean unpaid intern?
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:15 pm

A m e n r i a wrote:
Ansarullah wrote:It's still widespread throughout the entire world, only in different forms.
Just using the traditional definition, it's extremely common in areas controlled by people like Daesh and Western puppets like the old Ghani government.
That's not even counting the fact that a significant portion of people in the West are basically slaves with the nicer name of "employee".
Not that it's much less common in places like China, just marginally better.


Employee? You mean unpaid intern?


Reminds me of All Hail King Julien when Koto invaded the lemur kingdom and ousted King Julien.
Koto: Let me be clear, you are not to be slaves!
Lemurs: Oh, thank goodness.
Koto: You are all… unpaid interns!
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:58 pm

Insaanistan wrote:
A m e n r i a wrote:
Employee? You mean unpaid intern?


Reminds me of All Hail King Julien when Koto invaded the lemur kingdom and ousted King Julien.
Koto: Let me be clear, you are not to be slaves!
Lemurs: Oh, thank goodness.
Koto: You are all… unpaid interns!


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Dowaesk
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Postby Dowaesk » Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:31 am

Hwiteard wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:I doubt it's much of a problem for them.
It's still Arab supremacism. Good luck finding a black imam outside of North America and Europe, let alone a white one. Nope, can't have them zinji and firangi "brothers" getting delusions of equality. /s

When I was doing my Islam course. One of the Scholars who was there to teach us about Dawah was a white British man. And I wasnt even anywhere near Britain. He came to Maldives to teach us.
Last edited by Dowaesk on Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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A m e n r i a
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Postby A m e n r i a » Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:45 am

Insaanistan wrote:
A m e n r i a wrote:
Employee? You mean unpaid intern?


Reminds me of All Hail King Julien when Koto invaded the lemur kingdom and ousted King Julien.
Koto: Let me be clear, you are not to be slaves!
Lemurs: Oh, thank goodness.
Koto: You are all… unpaid interns!


The horror! :eek:

Dowaesk wrote:
Hwiteard wrote:It's still Arab supremacism. Good luck finding a black imam outside of North America and Europe, let alone a white one. Nope, can't have them zinji and firangi "brothers" getting delusions of equality. /s

When I was doing my Islam course. One of the Scholars who was there to teach us about Dawah was a white British man. And I wasnt even anywhere near Britain. He came to Maldives to teach us.


*Casually mentions the Pickle King of Tartary*
Last edited by A m e n r i a on Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:41 am

A m e n r i a wrote:
Dowaesk wrote:When I was doing my Islam course. One of the Scholars who was there to teach us about Dawah was a white British man. And I wasnt even anywhere near Britain. He came to Maldives to teach us.


*Casually mentions the Pickle King of Tartary*


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Harjanika
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Postby Harjanika » Sun May 01, 2022 9:01 am

EID MUBARAK EVERYONE!
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Sun May 01, 2022 9:09 am

Harjanika wrote:EID MUBARAK EVERYONE!

Ēid Mubarak (though it starts at sundown over here).
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Samudera Darussalam
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sun May 01, 2022 6:06 pm

Eid Mubarak!

Please do forgive me if I have committed any wrongdoings to you all before.

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A m e n r i a
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Postby A m e n r i a » Tue May 03, 2022 12:11 am

Suriyanakhon wrote:
A m e n r i a wrote:
*Casually mentions the Pickle King of Tartary*


The Pickle Dynasty shall last ten thousand years.


Pickles Wansui!
O7

Samudera Darussalam wrote:Eid Mubarak!

Please do forgive me if I have committed any wrongdoings to you all before.


Eid Mubarak and apologies to everyone present.
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Insaanistan
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Founded: Nov 18, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Insaanistan » Thu May 12, 2022 5:59 pm

Alhamdulilah, I was inducted into the National Honor Society today!
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركته-Peace be with you!
BLM - Free Palestine - Abolish Kafala - Boycott Israel - Trump lost
Anti: DAESH & friends, IR Govt, Saudi Govt, Israeli Govt, China, anti-semitism, homophobia, racism, sexism, Fascism, Communism, Islamophobia.

Hello brother (or sister),
Unapologetic Muslim American
I’m neither a terrorist nor Iranian.
Ace-ish (Hate it when my friends are right!)
TG for questions on Islam!

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A m e n r i a
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5257
Founded: Jun 08, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby A m e n r i a » Thu May 12, 2022 8:59 pm

Insaanistan wrote:Alhamdulilah, I was inducted into the National Honor Society today!


Congratulations!
The Empire of Amenria (亚洲帝国)
Sinocentric Asian theocratic absolute monarchy. Set 28 years in the future. On-site factbooks are no longer canon. A 13.14 civilization, according to this index.
Your guide to Amenria, organized for your convenience

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Dowaesk
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1276
Founded: Nov 03, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Dowaesk » Thu May 19, 2022 10:36 am

What a dead thread. Sad.

But glad to see you guys are still alive though. How are you all? and how was Eid? (A bit late ik, my bad. But this is the IDT and i have to relate it to Islam in some way otherwise im breaking rules)
Dowaesk is a nation set in the year 2041 in the Indian Ocean. An alternative future where Laccadives, Suvadives and Chagos are independent. And these 3 countries along with the Maldives join together to form Dowaesk. Much like how the EU is made up.
-Social Democrat
-Environmentalist
-Moderate
-Modernist Muslim
-Pro-Palestine
-Anti-Kemalist
-Warning: I tend to talk about Maldives a little too much.
A Patriotic Maldivian and a Proud Muslim
FREE PALESTINE
TGs always welcome. Idk. I just like keeping people in my inbox. TG me for my Discord.
#FreeNSGRojava

Member of UDAF
The Amman Message

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