Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Redeemed Britannia]

We're not fairly sure of that either though? The same Wikipedia article includes that there are few mentions of Mohammed as a person that are contemporaneous or near-contemporaneous. Which is funny because we do have enough evidence to know many of his contemporaries (the Four Caliphs for one) existed.

So... Fatima (RA)'s Father never existed? How about the grandchildren of Prophet Muhammad, Hassan and Husayn. They didnt exist either? Who was Aisha (RA) and Khadijah (RA) married to? How about the living descendants of Prophet Muhammad?

The existence of the current Emperor of Japan doesn't prove the existence of Jimmu or Amaterasu. Doesn't disprove them either, but here we are. As for Fatima in particular, I'd bring up a few Farsi history books I know of that claim her existence is equally uncertain, but I have yet to find anything in English.

[Mostrov]

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[A m e n r i a]

It really isn't absurd. That is to say, did Muhammad, the individual person, exist? Yes, he did, we're fairly sure of that. I don't think anybody would argue otherwise at this point. What is not absurd is scepticism regarding the general history and historiography surrounding Muhammad. The Wikipedia article I linked to in my previous post gives a nice introduction to the debates surrounding the issue.

Crone is certainly not the sole individual who has written about the topic. Now, unless a considerable part of the sources are questionable, have erroneous methodology impacting their findings, or some other research-based flaw, the issue is a fair one to discuss.

We're not fairly sure of that either though? The same Wikipedia article includes that there are few mentions of Mohammed as a person that are contemporaneous or near-contemporaneous. Which is funny because we do have enough evidence to know many of his contemporaries (the Four Caliphs for one) existed.

I do have some familiarity with the literature!

If we were to take the Koran in isolation, it has little itself on the Prophet, most of our purported biographical information comes from Arabic sources written over a century later. One can also call into question whether ahadith are to be regarded as accurate, as indeed there is much dispute with Islam, and was begun by Goldhizer.

However, most of what has been written primarily concerns the nature of his religious teachings, on which I would argue the Koran has a very coherent textual history, or his personal character. Neither of these are relevant to the historical facts: the Prophet started a religion, this religion had a different character than others of its time, there was a sequence of events concerning Mecca and Medina, which explains their later significance, and this eventually culminated in the conquest of Arabia. When Islam emerges into history proper, it is parsimonious to think these events occurred, especially when the very family members and close attendants are the one's recorded. Why would they coalescence around someone fictional?

Hagarism is to be regarded as the only serious attempt at the revisionism you have in mind and it has been severely censured and rightly so.

He didn't start Islam, Adam did.

[Lady Victory]

I do have some familiarity with the literature!

If we were to take the Koran in isolation, it has little itself on the Prophet, most of our purported biographical information comes from Arabic sources written over a century later. One can also call into question whether ahadith are to be regarded as accurate, as indeed there is much dispute with Islam, and was begun by Goldhizer.

However, most of what has been written primarily concerns the nature of his religious teachings, on which I would argue the Koran has a very coherent textual history, or his personal character. Neither of these are relevant to the historical facts: the Prophet started a religion, this religion had a different character than others of its time, there was a sequence of events concerning Mecca and Medina, which explains their later significance, and this eventually culminated in the conquest of Arabia. When Islam emerges into history proper, it is parsimonious to think these events occurred, especially when the very family members and close attendants are the one's recorded. Why would they coalescence around someone fictional?

Hagarism is to be regarded as the only serious attempt at the revisionism you have in mind and it has been severely censured and rightly so.

He didn't start Islam, Adam did.

Adam wasn't even a real person.

[A m e n r i a]

He didn't start Islam, Adam did.

Adam wasn't even a real person.

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. Even if you didn't see the verse none of us would be here if he wasn't lol

[Vistulange]

Adam wasn't even a real person.

That's where you're wrong, kiddo.

The Quran is not a historic source. Get off your bloody high horse, for fuck's sake.

[Redeemed Britannia]

Adam wasn't even a real person.

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. Even if you didn't see the verse none of us would be here if he wasn't lol

I'm pretty sure if there was one "first Human family", we would be so inbred after the hundreds of thousands of years homo sapiens sapiens alone has existed as a species we'd struggle to breath lmao.

[Old Tyrannia]

Adam wasn't even a real person.

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. Even if you didn't see the verse none of us would be here if he wasn't lol

You might as well cite Harry Potter as evidence that magic is real, if you're going to rest your argument on the Quran when you're arguing with a non-Muslim.

[Washington Resistance Army]

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. Even if you didn't see the verse none of us would be here if he wasn't lol

I'm pretty sure if there was one "first Human family", we would be so inbred after the hundreds of thousands of years homo sapiens sapiens alone has existed as a species we'd struggle to breath lmao.

Yeah. Most religious claims by their very nature can't be disproven but modern science has 110% disproven that creation story, it's simply not possible with how human genetics work.

[Vlad Tepes Stan Account]

Adam is a literary figure meant to represent all of mankind. The usage of Adam in Genesis is first used collectively, in the original Hebrew, and then switches over to representing a lone figure who represents mankind as a whole.

[Lady Victory]

Adam wasn't even a real person.

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. Even if you didn't see the verse none of us would be here if he wasn't lol

Your 7th century Arabian science fiction means nothing to me. It also contradicts both Judaism and Christianity which have long asserted that Adam and Eve were metaphorical people used to represent humanity rather than actual people, and also contradicts the science of genetics which has observed that repeated instances of inbreeding lead inevitably to sterilization and that two people alone could not possibly conceive the entire human species.

Get better material.

[Redeemed Britannia]

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. Even if you didn't see the verse none of us would be here if he wasn't lol

Your 7th century Arabian science fiction means nothing to me. It also contradicts both Judaism and Christianity which have long asserted that Adam and Eve were metaphorical people used to represent humanity rather than actual people, and also contradicts the science of genetics which has observed that repeated instances of inbreeding lead inevitably to sterilization and that two people alone could not possibly conceive the entire human species.

Get better material.

Point of order and serious question because I genuinely do not know this: Is the interpretation that Adam and eve are metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally as part of the Jewish myth of creation modern or did it exist in earlier history? Because some (relatively modern) Muslims also interpret that Adam, a prophet by his own right, couldn't have been the "only" Human of his time before he and his in-Koran-unnamed wife populated the planet (though this is new iirc).

[Lady Victory]

Your 7th century Arabian science fiction means nothing to me. It also contradicts both Judaism and Christianity which have long asserted that Adam and Eve were metaphorical people used to represent humanity rather than actual people, and also contradicts the science of genetics which has observed that repeated instances of inbreeding lead inevitably to sterilization and that two people alone could not possibly conceive the entire human species.

Get better material.

Point of order and serious question because I genuinely do not know this: Is the interpretation that Adam and eve are metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally as part of the Jewish myth of creation modern or did it exist in earlier history? Because some (relatively modern) Muslims also interpret that Adam, a prophet by his own right, couldn't have been the "only" Human of his time before he and his in-Koran-unnamed wife populated the planet (though this is new iirc).

Other way around, actually. Literal interpretations of Genesis were fringe (mostly reserved for heresies, typically Gnostic ones) until the Protestant Reformation. The so-called 'Great Awakenings' in the U.S. helped contribute to their modern popularity.

[Mostrov]

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[Vistulange]

Literalism was the default in Christianity until well into the 19th century.

I would say [citation needed], but no; that is best saved for the Christian Discussion Thread where it will not be a thread derail.

[Mostrov]

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[Lady Victory]

Literalism was the default in Christianity until well into the 19th century.

I would say [citation needed], but no; that is best saved for the Christian Discussion Thread where it will not be a thread derail.

I mean he can't tell the difference between the Gospel and the Old Testament so you'd be wasting your time either way.

[Mostrov]

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[A m e n r i a]

That's where you're wrong, kiddo.

The Quran is not a historic source. Get off your bloody high horse, for fuck's sake.

Yes it is. Stop posting in bad faith.

That's where you're wrong, kiddo. Even if you didn't see the verse none of us would be here if he wasn't lol

Your 7th century Arabian science fiction means nothing to me. It also contradicts both Judaism and Christianity which have long asserted that Adam and Eve were metaphorical people used to represent humanity rather than actual people, and also contradicts the science of genetics which has observed that repeated instances of inbreeding lead inevitably to sterilization and that two people alone could not possibly conceive the entire human species.

Get better material.

My "7th century Arabian science fiction" has the actual true info. Besides, Quranic verses on both past events and future ones are meant to be taken literally. Part of the reason behind our disagreement with the Ahmaddiyah sect.

[Alkhilafa Rasullalah]

Besides, Quranic verses on both past events and future ones are meant to be taken literally.

“It is God who has sent down to you the book: In it are verses clear (muhkamat), they are the foundation of the book, others are unspecific (mutashabihat)."

[Insaanistan]

His name, “Muhammad”, is the most common name in the world. Listed as the most influential man in history, he is revered as a Prophet in Islam and Baha’ism, and additionally revered in Druzism and Yazidism, as well as by many Sikhs. His life was filled with tragedy, heartbreak and deaths of loved ones, and even attempts on his life. Yet none of this deterred him. He would go on to be seen as the unifier of the Arabs, the liberator of slaves and women, the Final Prophet of God. But due largely to religious sectarianism and ignorance about his life and the faith that came of him, his legacy is one that many call into question. For the purposes of this, I’ve tried my best to use primarily reputable non-Muslim sources on Muhammad as opposed to reputable Muslim ones. This is the story of a man, a prophet: Muhammad (peace an blessings be upon him).

Early Life:

Muhammad was born in 6th century Arabia to a woman named Amina. His father, Ābdullah ibn Ābdul-Mutallib, had died 6 months before he was born. Arabia at the time was a place of many tribes, full of semi-nomadic and nomadic peoples as well as those who had settled around oasis towns. Makkah had not in the too distant past started to become incredibly rich off of the traffic and trade that came with having the Kaaba. Said to have been built by Abraham, the building housed hundreds of Arabian pagan idols. Arabs lived in the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, and Mesopotamia. The vast majority of Christian Arabs lived under the Byzantine Empire in the Levant, with a decent amount under the Sassanids in Mesopotamia. Few lived in Arabia, even around cities like Yathrib and Makkah, save for parts of Yemen. Jews, who consisted of both Arab converts to Judaism and Jews who had adopted Arab culture, lived throughout the Peninsula, frequently trading in Makkah. When getting into arguments with the pagans of Makkah, Jewish traders would often warn of a prophet who would come and rid the Makkans of their evil ways. The Byzantines and Persians seldom actually took land in Arabia, not due to any strength of the Arabs, but rather them viewing it not worth their time. Instead, the exhausted themselves fighting over the land north of the Peninsula, which would come back to bite them.

Muhammad (S)’s mother died when he was six years of age, placing him in the care of his paternal grandfather, Ābdul-Mutalib, who died just a few years later. Then, it was his uncle, Abu Talib, who took in the young orphan. He took him once on a trading trip to Syria, where a Christian monk named Bahira observed the boy. Bahira was among a group of Christians at the time convinced another prophet was coming, Bahira being among those who believed he would be from Arabia. He told Abu Talib that Muhammad (S) would be a great servant of God someday. Working as a shepherd, then as a merchant, Muhammad (S) developed a reputation for being honest, to the point he was called “al-Amin” (the Honest one) and “as-Sadiq” (the Trustworthy One), the latter of which a titled he shared with his good friend, Abu Bakr. Trading between the Indian Ocean and Red Sea, one of his employers took a liking to him, a woman named Khadijah bint Khuwaylid. Wealthy, she had turned down numerous marriage proposals. However, seeing the handsome and honest young man, Khadijah eventually proposed to Muhammad (S). She was 15 years his senior, but he accepted. When they married, all her slaves became his, and Muhammad (S) freed them all immediately. Some remained servants in his household; one, however, he adopted: Zaid ibn Harithah.

Islam Begins:

Muhammad (S) was discontent with what he saw in Arabia. The disregard for the poor, the oppression of women, and the issue of slavery all troubles him. In the year 610 CE, while meditating, Muslims believe he was visited by an emissary of God himself. A voice boomed “Read!”
“I cannot read,” Muhammad replied, “I am not from among those who read.” Two more times the voice asked him to read, before finally, the voice continued:
“Read in the name of thy Lord who created. Who created man from a clot of blood. Read, and your Lord is Most Generous. Who taught man by the pen. Who taught man what he did not know.”

Muhammad (S) did not greet this news with joy or pride at being chosen by God. Instead, he fled the cave and ran down the mountain in absolute terror. Makkans who were out at that hour watched a panicked Muhammad (S) running terrified to his house.
“Cover me!” he cried out to Khadijah, who threw a blanket over him. He related to her what had happened and lamented that he may be going mad, or even being tormented by a demon. Khadijah assured him God wouldn’t allow such things to happen to a man like him. And so she went to the only person whom she thought could help: Waraqah ibn Nawfal. Either a Christian or a hanif, upon hearing what happened, he informed Muhammad (S) that it had to have been a revelation from God. Abraham’s God. He warned Muhammad (S), however, that his message would not be well received: rather, Waraqah asserted, Muhammad (S)’s people would turn him out. At this point, Muhammad (S) had not yet came out claiming to be God’s prophet, and upon hearing this could have easily dropped the matter entirely. But he decided that if he were a prophet, then he had to deliver whatever message God instructed him to. But then, three years passed without any visits from Gabriel, and some reports say Muhammad (S) was so distraught, he contemplated jumping off a cliff to commit suicide. But according to Islamic sources, Gabriel visited him again, now with more verses:
“By the light of dawn. By the night when it becomes dark. Your Lord has not abandoned you, nor He hate you. And certainly the Hereafter is better then this life. And surely you will be satisfied by what your Lord will give you. Did He not find you as an orphan and shelter you? Did He not find you lost and guide you? Did he not find you poor and satisfy your needs? So do not oppress the orphan. Nor shoo away the beggar. And proclaim blessings of your Lord.”

Khadijah became the first person and first woman to convert to Islam. Abu Bakr became the second person and first man. Āli, the son of Muhammad (S)’s protector and uncle Abu Talib, became the first child. His next few followers were all close friends and relatives, who as a sign of their faith, freed their slaves, who also joined Islam. At first, he preached in relative secrecy, the exact details of the faith unknown to anyone who didn’t ask him directly with the intentions to convert. More revelations began coming, such as this
“When the sun is out of light. And when the stars fall. And when the mountains crumble. And when pregnant camels are neglected. And when the seas are set on fire. And when souls re enter bodies. And when the newborn girls buried alive asked for what crime they were killed. And when the records of deeds are laid out. And when the sky is stripped away. And when Hell is set ablaze. And when Heaven is brought near. Then every soul shall know what they have done.”

The elites of Makkah were divided on what to do. Some wanted to squash it immediately, while others, namely Banu Hashem (Muhammad pbuh’s clan) and the tribes close to Banu Hashem through shared ancestry, called for a more calm approach. After all, Muhammad (S) hadn’t made his message public, so there was no need to worry.

But then… Muhammad (S) made his message public. Marching towards the Kaaba, his mosaic of followers linked arm in arm, getting rocks pelted at them. Muhammad (pbuh) recited
“Oh you who disbelieve. I do not worship what you worship. Nor do you worship what I worship. Nor will I will I worship what you worship. Nor will you worship what I worship. You have your way and I will have mine.”
His uncle, Hamzah ibn Ābdul-Mutalib, arrived, and declared his support for Islam and Muhammad (S).

Muhammad’s call for monotheism and reform in Arabia angered the elites of Makkah. Long had Muhammad (S) been known to be against idolatry, even from childhood, but now he was spreading his ideology to others. They reasoned they would lose their primary source of income if Islam were to take over Makkah, which they were certain would deter the other pagans of Makkah making pilgrimage there. Additionally, Muhammad (S), who had freed all his slaves, was preaching all were equal in God’s eyes, something that attracted many slaves to his faith. But, so long as Abu Talib was protecting him, Banu Hashem would continue to guard him. Even if he had to send some of his followers to the nearby Christian kingdom of Aksum, which he respected for also following the Abrahamic God, all would be okay. Except in 619, both Abu Talib and Khadijah died, in what he called “the worst year” of his life. Now, not only were two people so beloved to him dead, his protection was gone. Persecution ramped up. He sought refuge in Taīf, but the people there cast him out, throwing rocks at him and Zaid, upon hearing his message of worshiping one God and respecting women. Muslims believe Gabriel then came down and asked Muhammad (S) for permission to destroy the entire city. However, the Prophet (S) declined.

Madinah and War:

It seemed as if he had failed in his message, when help came. It came from the south: Yathrib. Yathrib was like the New York City of Arabia. It was essentially several towns and villages close together, populated mainly by Jews and pagan Arabs, with a few Christians. And like New York City, Yathrib was plagued by violence. Some people from Yathrib had heard Muhammad (S) preach, including some learned Jews who upon questioning him deduce he must be a prophet of God. Liking his message, they thought he could be the man to settle their civil wars and bring stability. A Yathrib delegation came to him in 622, offering sanctuary in Yathrib. Pledging loyalty to Islam, they sealed the deal.

However, Muhammad (S) couldn’t simply tell everyone to immediately make a break for Yathrib. 320 kilometers away, that many people gone from Makkah would draw too much attention and lead to them being caught. Little by little, on the Prophet (S)’s orders, Muslims began trickling out of Makkah. But the Quraysh noticed the exodus, and began plotting.
Plotting to kill Muhammad (S).

One man from each clan was stationed outside his house, so no one clan could have the finger pointed at them. At dawn, they entered his house and burst into his room. They tore off the covers and…
Āli was there, staring back at them, ready to die for his cousin and his faith. They let Āli live, and instead, began a massive manhunt for Muhammad (S). He evaded them in the mountains, Muslims claiming that God miraculously had a spiderweb and bird’s nest built over night at the entrance of the cave to convince his pursuers he couldn’t have gone in. Then, it was on to Yathrib. When he arrived, he was greeted with music and a song, glorifying God and welcoming Muhammad (S) to their city. It was renamed “Madinat an-Nabi” (City of the Prophet), or “Madinah” for short.

Eventually, the Constitution of Madinah was drafted. Widely considered to be authentic by both Muslim and non-Muslim historians, it recognized all Madinah’s residents as equals, included non-Muslims as part of the Ummah, and ensured protection for all the Jewish tribes. The Makkans, however, didn’t sit back and watch. Gathering the left behind belongings of the Muslims, they sent a caravan to Damascus to profit from them. Hearing this, the Muslims, enraged, called for war, knowing Muhammad (S)’s peaceful nature would make getting approval a challenge. But God sent down orders to fight, but warned not to transgress, and to end hostilities as soon as the Makkans were willing to. En route to confront a much larger Makkah force, Muhammad (S) laid down these rules:

“1. Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person. Do not practice treachery or mutilation. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food. If one fights his brother, he must avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam. Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle. Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you are forced to encounter them, exercise patience. No one may punish with fire except God. Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.”

In the following engagement at Badr, the Muslims defeated the Makkan army (Muslim sources claiming angels joined the battle to help them win). While looking back at this battle in a modern light, it’s more of a skirmish, it marked an improvement in the image of Muhammad (S) in Arabia, and spelled a sense of shame for the Makkan armies that had come to engage them in combat. They had managed to be defeated in the first battle the Muslims had ever fought in. Soon after, Muhammad (S) said he had received another revelation: an order to change the qibla, the direction of prayer. Like Jews and many Arabian Christians, the Muslims had up until that point prayed towards the holy city Jerusalem. Now, Muhammad (S) claimed God had ordered him to change the direction to Makkah. In this, the Muslims had not only affirmed that Jerusalem was holy and they shared a brotherhood with Christians and Jews, but now, they were (at least in their eyes) confirming that they were in fact followers of Abraham’s faith, praying towards the city were Abraham (peace be upon him) had been believed to built a house of God. This decision angered some of the Jews in Arabia, who were upset that the Muslims wanted to pray towards anywhere but Jerusalem. The Jews of Arabia had various different opinions of Muhammad (S): some didn’t recognize him as a prophet of God, as he was an Arab. Others believed he was a prophet sent by God solely for gentiles, and that Jews were to continue their ways. Others still converted to Islam, convinced he must be a prophet as they believed he fit all the criteria.

Nearly a year after Badr, the Makkans and their allies marched forth again with an army. This wasn’t a simply skirmish over tribal differences: this time, the goal was so end Islam once and for all. This time, 3 times the size of Muhammad (S)’s. Muhammad (S) saw little help from the Jewish tribes: most Jews refused to partake in this battle on account of the Sabbath. There were some exceptions, such as the Rabbi Mukhayriq, who urged the Jews of Madinah to ignore the Sabbath and fight with Muhammad (S) in the common cause of devotion to God. On top of that, one commander abandoned the army, taking 300 men with him. In the ensuing battle, Hamza, the uncle of Muhammad (S), was killed. So was Mukhayriq. The Muslims, however, pushed the Makkans back. But then a fatal mistake came. Archers had been posted on the mountains around Uhud, and ordered to remain there. But seeing the Makkans flee, most of the archers began to fear that all the loot would be gone by the time the battle was over, taken by soldiers on the battlefield proper. Many of them came down the mountain in order to join in the collection of the loot. Seeing this, the Makkan in charge of the Calvary charged, the Muslim flank now largely exposed. This brought chaos throughout the Muslim ranks. The Makkan who came up with the idea and led the charge: Khalid ibn Walid. Muhammad (S) himself was knocked unconscious, and there was a fear that he may be dead. Brought up to his tent, the Makkans jeered, “Today was for Badr! Your dead for our dead!” The Muslims and Jews called back, “Our dead are in Paradise, yours in Hellfire!” But then confirmation came: Muhammad (S) was alive and conscious. The battle ended, much less successful on the Muslim end than Badr. The Battle of Uhud has been seen as either a Muslim defeat or a stalemate; the Muslims failed to crush the Makkan forces, but the Makkans failed their objective: kill Muhammad (S).

Five years later, the Makkans and their allies returned, with an army of 10,000. Having only 3,000, Muhammad (S) knew conventional warfare was hopeless. Then, one companion had an ingenious idea. Salman al-Farsi had been born in Persia as a Zoroastrian. Becoming a Christian after studying religion, he was enslaved and brought to Madinah. He had heard along his travels from scholars that soon a new Prophet would come, and was overjoyed when news of Muhammad (S) came. The Muslims worked to earn enough money to buy his freedom, and he became a trusted companion. His idea was a war strategy he learned back in Persia: dig a trench so wide the enemy can’t cross it. According to Muslim sources, in 2 weeks, the Makkans began running out of resources, and asked a Jewish tribe in Madinah, Banu Qurayza, to attack the Muslim forces. Previously, Banu Qurayza and a few of the other Jewish tribes in Madinah had only traded with the Makkans. Never before had they engaged in an outright insurrection. Luckily for the Muslims, the Makkans withdrew before the attack was to take place. But now, the disloyalty of Banu Qurayza was open, and it had scared the Muslims to the bone. Muhammad (S) allowed the Jewish tribes to appoint who they thought should judge them. The judge, a Jew himself, ordered the soldiers of the tribe to be executed, and everyone else to be taken as prisoners-of-war until the conflict’s official end. At least that’s what might have happened: historians have casted some doubt on this true, with some asserting that Muhammad (S) simply let the Jews of Banu Qurayza go and that there’s not enough evidence to support the massacre theory. Whatever the case, the Muslims had won the Battle of the Trench.

Conquest of Makkah:

In 629, another battle would commence between the Muslims and a Jewish tribe who had defied the Constitution of Madinah: the Battle of Khaybar. Muslims sources claim the inhabitants of Khaybar were planning to unite several Jewish tribes in a war against the Muslims. Most historians corroborate that the people of Khaybar were in some way working against the Muslims, and that they had intended to attack the forces of Muhammad (S) during the Battle of the Trench. After one Jewish tribe sent less men than expected and other flat out refused to join the insurrection on the grounds the Constitution forbade it, the chief of the Banu Nadir tribe (the tribe at Khaybar), Huyayy ibn Akhtab was the one who convinced Banu Qurayza to fight the Muslims. Dying that battle, he was replaced by Abu ar-Rafi ibn Abi al-Huqayq, who after trying to convince other Jewish and pagan tribes in the area to raise a coalition against Muhammad, got assassinated by a contingency of Muslims and Arab Jews. He then was replaced by Usayr ibn Zarim. At a peace summit, Usayr drew his sword in an attempt to attack the Muslim representative, Ābdullah ibn Unays, who rushed at him and sliced off his leg. Usayr used a club in the hand not holding the sword to whack Ābdullah in the head. In the ensuing scuffle, all the Jewish companions of Usayr were killed except one who fled the scene. The Muslims used this incident as justification for the attack. Indeed, many historians corroborate the Banu Nadir and their associates initiated and escalated hostilities. The Jews of Fadak and Bedouin of the Ghatafan tribe joined the coalition of Khaybar. However, the people of Khaybar greatly underestimated the threat Muhammad (S)’s force posed to them, so they did not prepare well enough. They also were plagued by quarreling between the families that lived in Khaybar. The Muslims had under 2,000 troops, some units of whom, like at battles such as Uhud, were made up of women. Khaybar had more than 5 times the troops. This smaller force was easier to maneuver and made the force at Khaybar overconfident, however. Additionally, the Bedouins of Ghatafan tribe didn’t show up to help, either bought off or simply bowing out due to rumors the Muslims would attack their tribe, too. The Muslims reportedly took most of the fortresses with a great deal of ease. Neither side, however, had the provisions for a prolonged siege. Muhammad (S) said he had received a revelation from God that the Muslims would be allowed to eat horse and mule meat if there was nothing else. Al-Qamus proved to be a great challenge, however. Both Abu Bakr and Ūmar had led unsuccessful charges against it. The Prophet (S) said tomorrow, he would give the banner to another man loved by both him and God, who by the grace of God would hopefully be victorious. The man was his cousin and son-in-law: Āli ibn Abi Talib. Āli had been sick before and only now well enough to fight. The fortress of al-Qamus fell. The people of al-Wati and al-Sulaalim surrendered on the condition Muhammad (S) be merciful to them and not kill anyone. The Muslims agreed, and didn’t touch the property of those two forts. The sides came to a truce: the Jews would be kicked out of Khaybar but allowed to go free. However, some Jews approached Muhammad (S), asking that their people be allowed to remain in Khaybar. It was arranged they would have to pay tax to the Muslims but be allowed to stay. Some versions of this story additionally claim Muhammad (S) told the Jews of Khaybar “We may, however, expel you if and when we wish to expel you”, but some historians doubt that, asserting it was added in later on. When the Jews of Fadak heard of this, they quickly sent an emissary asking to surrender in exchange for lenient terms like those offered at Khaybar, and received just that. One of the captives to be released at the signing of the treaty was Safiyya bint Huyayy. Some of the companions informed Muhammad (S) of her high status and suggested he marry her. He went to her and offered her the choices of becoming Muslim or staying a religious Jew, and of marrying him and coming to Makkah or remaining with her people. She converted to Islam and agreed to marry him. Some of his other wives made fun of her for being Jewish, and claimed she had not really converted to Islam and didn’t believe it in her heart. When Safiyya complained to her about this, he told her to say to them “Harun (Aaron) is my father, Musa (Moses) by uncle, and Muhammad my husband” (Safiyya’s tribe was believed to be descended from Harun pbuh).

Arab and Byzantine forces came into conflict that same year. The Ghassanids were Christian Arabs who lived in the Levant, client states of the Eastern Roman Empire. Two of their tribes already used to interrupt Muslim caravans, but then things boiled over. According to Muslim sources, Muhammad (S) sent 2 emissaries to some of the Ghassanid tribes, who got assassinated. Muhammad (S) sent an army in order to punish the tribes for this. Non-Muslim historians assert that while the Ghassanids caused the conflict, the Muslims already wanted to bring the Ghassanids under their control. The Byzantines came to the tribes aid, and the Battle of Mūtah began. Khalid ibn Walid, now a Muslim, proved to be instrumental in the battle. His cavalry units kicked up dust, tricking the Byzantines into thinking Muslim reinforcements were on the way. Just a skirmish for the Byzantines, it was monumental for the Muslims.

The peace with Makkah was broken when Makkan bands attacked Muslims. Muhammad (S) marched towards Makkah with his army. He camped outside Makkah the night before his entry. Abu Sufyan, was of his fiercest opponents, and his wife, Hind, came to his camp in the middle of the night, and converted to Islam. Muhammad (S) and his army entered Makkah the next day, declaring “All who take shelter in and around the Kaaba are safe! All in Abu Sufyan’s house are safe! All who are in their homes are safe!” Reassured, the people of Makkah began opening their doors, watching the Muslims enter the city. Muhammad (S) once again stepped foot in his city of birth, the city so beloved to him. Entering the Kaaba, he knocked down an idol. His followers followed suit, removing the idols from the House of God. Bilal ibn Rabah, the first muathin of Islam, climbed atop the Kaaba, and recited the call to prayer, the athan.
“God is the Greatest! God is the Greatest!
God is the Greatest! God is the Greatest!
I bear witness there is no god except God!
I bear witness there is no god except God!
I bear witness Muhammad is the messenger of God!
I bear witness Muhammad is the messenger of God!
Come to prayer!
Come to prayer!
Come to good work!
Come to good work!
God is the Greatest! God is the Greatest!
There is no god except God!”

Was it over? No. More was still to come.

Death and Legacy:

Pagans at Taīf had hoped to attack while the Muslims were still settling in Makkah. Hearing of this from spies, Muhammad (S) marched to meet them in the Battle of Hunayn. Though initially ambushed by the pagans, the Muslims won decisively, capturing a great deal of loot. Historians have difficulty deciphering what happened during most of the battle. What is clear is that there was a pagan ambush but the Muslims ended up winning. However, Taīf itself did not fall, nor did it surrender. Muhammad (S) invited a Christian delegation from Najran, Yemen to debate religion with him. Exact details differ depending on the historian: some claim the leaders of the delegation accepted Islam while the rest simply refused to curse him, while others assert the Christians all simply agreed not to curse him. However, the Christians were about to leave the mosque to pray. But Muhammad (S) urged them to pray inside the mosque, stating they all worshipped the same God, despite differing views on Jesus (peace be upon him).

He delivered his final sermon in 632.
“All praise is Allah’s. We praise Him, seek His help, ask His forgiveness, and we repent unto Him. We seek refuge in Allah from the evils of our selves and our bad actions. Whomever Allah guides none can lead astray, and whomever He leads astray has no one to guide him. I testify that there is no god but Allah alone, without any partner, and I testify that Muhammad is his slave and messenger. I enjoin you, O servants of Allah, to be god-fearing towards Allah, I urge you to obey Him, and I begin with that which is best.
To commence: O people, hear me well: I explain to you. For I do not know; I may well not meet you again in this place where I now stand, after this year of mine.
O people: your lives and your property, until the very day you meet your Lord, are as inviolable to each other as the inviolability of this day you are now in, and the month you are now in. Have I given the message?—O Allah, be my witness. So let whoever has been given something for safekeeping give it back to him who gave him it.
Truly, the usury of the Era of Ignorance has been laid aside forever, and the first usury I begin with is that which is due to my father’s brother ‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib. And truly the blood-vengeance of the Era of Ignorance has been laid aside forever, and the first blood-vengeance we shall start with is that which is due for the blood of [my kinsman] ‘Amir ibn Rabi‘a ibn Harith ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib. Truly, the hereditary distinctions that were pretensions to respect in the Era of Ignorance have been laid aside forever, except for the custodianship of the Kaaba [by Bani ‘Abd al-Dar] and the giving of drink to pilgrims [by al-‘Abbas].
A deliberate murder is subject to retaliation in kind. An accidental death from a deliberate injury means a death resulting from [something not usually used or intended as a deadly weapon such as] a stick or a rock, for which the indemnity is one hundred camels: whoever asks for more is a person of the Era of Ignorance.
O people: the Devil has despaired of ever being worshipped in this land of yours, though he is content to be obeyed in other works of yours, that you deem to be of little importance.
O people: postponing the inviolability of a sacred month [claiming to postpone the prohibition of killing in it to a subsequent month, so as to continue warring despite the sacred month’s having arrived] is a surfeit of unbelief, by which those who disbelieve are led astray, making it lawful one year and unlawful in another, in order to match the number [of months] Allah has made inviolable. Time has verily come full turn, to how it was the day Allah created the heavens and the earth. Four months there are which are inviolable, three in a row and forth by itself: Dhul Qa‘da, Dhul Hijja, and Muharram; and Rajab, which lies between Jumada and Sha‘ban. Have I given the message?—O Allah, be my witness.
O people: verily you owe your women their rights, and they owe you yours. They may not lay with another men in your beds, let anyone into your houses you do not want without your permission, or commit indecency. If they do, Allah has given you leave to debar them, send them from your beds, or [finally] strike them in a way that does no harm. But if they desist, and obey you, then you must provide for them and clothe them fittingly. The women who live with you are like captives, unable to manage for themselves: you took them as a trust from Allah, and enjoyed their sex as lawful through a word [legal ruling] from Allah. So fear Allah in respect to women, and concern yourselves with their welfare. Have I given the message?—O Allah, be my witness.
O people, believers are but brothers. No one may take his brother’s property without his full consent. Have I given the message?—O Allah, be my witness. Never go back to being unbelievers, smiting each other’s necks, for verily, I have left among you that which if you take it, you will never stray after me: the Book of Allah. Have I given the message?—O Allah, be my witness.
O people, your Lord is One, and your father is one: all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over non-Arab other than godfearingness. Have I given the message?—O Allah, be my witness. —At this, they said yes.
He said, Then let whomever is present tell whomever is absent.
O people, Allah has apportioned to every deserving heir his share of the estate, and no deserving heir may accept a special bequest, and no special bequest may exceed a third of the estate. A child’s lineage is that of the [husband who owns the] bed, and adulterers shall be stoned. Whoever claims to be the son of someone besides his father or a bondsman who claims to belong to other than his masters shall bear the curse of Allah and the angels and all men: no deflecting of it or ransom for it shall be accepted from him.
And peace be upon all of you, and the mercy of Allah.”

In 632, Taīf finally accepted Islam. Muhammad (S) became sick in June of that year. A couple days later, his companions were praying in the mosque. Side by side. All of them. There were Arabs, Afro-Arabs, Ethiopians, Greeks, Persians and Jews. Men, women, and mukhannathun. Adults and children, young and old. The last he saw of his Ummah, was all of them, United in prayer, from behind a curtain. He smiled, closed the curtain and withdrew back to rest. On June 8th, 632 CE (10 AH), Muhammad (peace be upon him), son of Ābdullah the son of Ābdul-Mutalib the son of Hashem, died, in Āisha’s house.

This was a man known for his honesty. A man known for his charitable nature, his tolerance of those who thought differently than him, his willingness to forgive those who went against him. A man known to be advocate for the freedom of slaves, a man who was against the tribalism he saw in his land. A man who ended the practice of burying newborn girls for their gender, and who told parents that treating their daughters well would help ensure them a place in heaven. Muhammad (S) reformed Arabia even from a secular point of view, some Western historians referring to Islam as a revolution. He told people to be charitable and to be kind. He claimed women were equal to men in a society where having girls was seen as shameful. He employed people nowadays considered LGBTQIA+ in his household, and said they couldn’t be killed for what they couldn’t control. He chastised those who were tribalist or racist, and condemned his enemies for keeping slaves.

So why is his legacy so tarnished? Well, a lot of it has to do with sectarianism. Muhammad (S) and Islam posed a challenge to Europe’s dominance and Christianity. This new religion upset the balance of power in the region, kicking the Romans out of their African and Middle Eastern strongholds. In fact, most writings from non-Muslims on Muhammad (S) come at least 200 years after he died, which is at 100 years after the main batch of hadiths came out. The Crusades marked an increase in these fanciful tales about him. And indeed, he is also often blamed for the actions of leaders who came before him. Brutal, repressive, even genocidal leaders, who in many cases didn’t just go against what was clearly his example, but went directly against what Islam scriptures sanctioned. Yet historians who look at him with an open mind time and time again come with a positive view again. They don’t normally convert to Islam, but they do demonstrate he was not a monstrous demon hell-bent on destroying all that was good.

Rather, he was a man who at least believed he was receiving revelations from God. A man who changed Arabia for the better.
And indeed, in modern times, many of those who claim to follow his faith fail to do so. Muhammad (S) warned against sectarianism and condemned those were sexist and racist. He also warned about terrorism and cautioned Muslims to avoid extremism. Yet so many seem to forget that legacy, instead focused on “more important things”, such as arguing over who should have succeeded him, shaming hijab is for showing 2 cm of hair, refusing to allow their children to marry anyone not handpicked from their homeland, and telling Jews that they’ll burn in hellfire for eternity for… existing? And most importantly, Muhammad (S) was just a man. He was not a god (or the son of God for that matter), nor an angel, nor a jinn. He’s not even the Messiah. He was just a good man, greatest one in fact, who God chose to guide the most misguided people on earth at the time.

A Muslim asks God to send blessings upon him. A Baha’i reads Baha’ullah’s writings on him. A Yazidi names his son after him. A Druze praises him alongside Jesus and Aristotle. A Sikh read’s Baba Guru Nanak’s words in the Guru Granth Sahib commending and praising him.
This man inspires billions around the world. Muhammad ibn Ābdullah (salallahu ālayhi wa salaam).

I’ll leave you with these few quotes on him:

“If the object of religion be the inculcation of morals, the diminution of evil, the promotion of human happiness, the expansion of the human intellect, if the performance of good works will avail in the great day when mankind shall be summoned to its final reckoning it is neither irreverent nor unreasonable to admit that Muhammad was indeed an Apostle of God.”
-S.P. Scott, author of History of the Moorish Empire in Europe

“It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.”
-Annie Besant, President of the INC

“His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.”
-William Montgomery Watt, Professor at University of Edinburgh

“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capability to the changing phases of existence which can make itself appeal to everyone. I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of today. The medieval ecclesiastics either through ignorance or bigotry painted Islam in the darkest colors. They were, in fact, trained to hate the man Muhammad and his religion. To them, Muhammad was anti-Christ. I have studied him -the wonderful man, and in my opinion, far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the savior of humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring the much needed peace and happiness. But to proceed, it was in the nineteenth century that honest thinkers like Carlyle, Gibbon and Goethe perceived intrinsic worth in the religion of Muhammad.”

-Sir George Bernard Shaw, author of The Genuine Islam

[Insaanistan]

Sources:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny- ... to-medina/
https://www.thedeenshow.com/10-islamic-rules-of-war/
http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/timeline_html.shtml
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBx-RYW1FjE
https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/441802 ... m-scholars
https://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_women.shtml
https://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_otherrel.shtml
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... LP41fo1QBw
https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mu%27tah

[Insaanistan]

The Quran is not a historic source. Get off your bloody high horse, for fuck's sake.

Yes it is. Stop posting in bad faith.

Your 7th century Arabian science fiction means nothing to me. It also contradicts both Judaism and Christianity which have long asserted that Adam and Eve were metaphorical people used to represent humanity rather than actual people, and also contradicts the science of genetics which has observed that repeated instances of inbreeding lead inevitably to sterilization and that two people alone could not possibly conceive the entire human species.

Get better material.

My "7th century Arabian science fiction" has the actual true info. Besides, Quranic verses on both past events and future ones are meant to be taken literally. Part of the reason behind our disagreement with the Ahmaddiyah sect.

The Qur’ân can only be used when debating with non-Muslims as a historic source when in reference to events that were current at the time, because Muhammad (S) was being talked to by God (at least in the Muslim theory) and so we can be quite sure even from a secular view that when it’s talking about events happening at the time it’s accurate.

The same cannot be said of the stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. The Qur’ân cannot be used (when dealing with those who do not believe in Islam) as evidence they existed.

[Diarcesia]

Yes it is. Stop posting in bad faith.



My "7th century Arabian science fiction" has the actual true info. Besides, Quranic verses on both past events and future ones are meant to be taken literally. Part of the reason behind our disagreement with the Ahmaddiyah sect.

The Qur’ân can only be used when debating with non-Muslims as a historic source when in reference to events that were current at the time, because Muhammad (S) was being talked to by God (at least in the Muslim theory) and so we can be quite sure even from a secular view that when it’s talking about events happening at the time it’s accurate.

The same cannot be said of the stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. The Qur’ân cannot be used (when dealing with those who do not believe in Islam) as evidence they existed.

Yeah it wouldn't work given that the assumed premises are wildly different.

[Insaanistan]

The Qur’ân can only be used when debating with non-Muslims as a historic source when in reference to events that were current at the time, because Muhammad (S) was being talked to by God (at least in the Muslim theory) and so we can be quite sure even from a secular view that when it’s talking about events happening at the time it’s accurate.

The same cannot be said of the stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. The Qur’ân cannot be used (when dealing with those who do not believe in Islam) as evidence they existed.

Yeah it wouldn't work given that the assumed premises are wildly different.

How do you mean?