Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Czervenika]

Self-insert? Why do Muslims tend to assume all westerners they're arguing with are Christians? I'm neither Christian nor Muslim. If anything, I'm agnostic.

And I’m not only an ardent anti-clerical atheist, I’m also not a ‘westerner’ as is conventionally defined.

When the Islamic radicals here try to point out that Christian fundamentalists do the same thing they do, my instinctive response boils down to ‘yeah and I dislike that too, and for the same reasons; what’s your point?’

Yea pretty much.

Also, I live in Canada so would definitely be considered a "westerner".

[Insaanistan]

You assume people who defend terrorists care what the Qur'an actually states.

The fact people continuously make this mistake explains why many people hold the view of Lady Victory.

The Prophet ﷺ would literally be labeled a terrorist by America today

No.
Maybe by 1960s America.

[Chess Reloaded]

That's not a whataboutism, that's saying his statement is inaccurate. There are even Hindus living in Pakistan and that's illegal to do to them, and there is a lot more animosity toward Hindus. Some Christians have a profound problem with self insert, reminds me of the evangelical tweets about the Taliban killing Christians in Afghanistan even though the only church in the whole country was at the Italian embassy

Self-insert? Why do Muslims tend to assume all westerners they're arguing with are Christians? I'm neither Christian nor Muslim. If anything, I'm agnostic.

I was not referring to you,but IK

[Chess Reloaded]

The Prophet ﷺ would literally be labeled a terrorist by America today

No.
Maybe by 1960s America.

No, today. They would also drone the Sahaba and say the UN does not recognize his state. For stoning, he would be sanctioned. For night raids and catapults, he would be labeled a terrorist

[Insaanistan]

That's not a whataboutism, that's saying his statement is inaccurate. There are even Hindus living in Pakistan and that's illegal to do to them, and there is a lot more animosity toward Hindus. Some Christians have a profound problem with self insert, reminds me of the evangelical tweets about the Taliban killing Christians in Afghanistan even though the only church in the whole country was at the Italian embassy

Self-insert? Why do Muslims tend to assume all westerners they're arguing with are Christians? I'm neither Christian nor Muslim. If anything, I'm agnostic.

Historically, Western nations have attempted to impose Christianity rather than agnosticism on the nations of Africa and Asia. Because of this, they are viewed by many as a Christian "other" to the Muslim World.

[Insaanistan]

No.
Maybe by 1960s America.

No, today. They would also drone the Sahaba and say the UN does not recognize his state. For stoning, he would be sanctioned. For night raids and catapults, he would be labeled a terrorist

Believe it or not, the West is not opposed to every single thing you like just because you don't like the West.

[Chess Reloaded]

No, today. They would also drone the Sahaba and say the UN does not recognize his state. For stoning, he would be sanctioned. For night raids and catapults, he would be labeled a terrorist

Believe it or not, the West is not opposed to every single thing you like just because you don't like the West.

Indeed, I happen to like Muppet Treasure Island. But that's totally irrelevant to what I said.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

7th Century Arabia was a violent, politically unstable region on the peripheries of more culturally and politically sophisticated civilisations.

The kind of behaviour that was appropriate in such an environment was, for very obvious reasons, vastly different from the kind of behaviour that is appropriate in our (mostly) peaceful globalised civilisation of the 21st Century, and if you try to behave in the latter as people used to in the former, you really should not be all that surprised if the world considers you to be a bunch of maladaptive misfits.

I mean, to put it this way, Charlemagne was a Christian paragon in his time but put him in the 21st Century and the modern French and German governments are likely to have some harsh words to say about the measures he took to Christianise Saxony. This argument that we are having in this thread has little to do with Christianity against Islam (except, perhaps, insofar as the different circumstances of their origins may have affected their natures) and everything to do with modern information-era civilisation against medieval barbarism.

[Insaanistan]

Believe it or not, the West is not opposed to every single thing you like just because you don't like the West.

Indeed, I happen to like Muppet Treasure Island. But that's totally irrelevant to what I said.

Your belief on how the West would react to Muhammad (S) if he were around today is rooted in your opposition to the West as a whole. A feeling that was widespread in the Muslim World during the Cold War and de-colonization.

[The Alma Mater]

The Prophet ﷺ would literally be labeled a terrorist by America today

No.
Maybe by 1960s America.

There mere fact that many do in fact call him a warlord, pedophile, thief etc. etc. does imply that many individuals indeed would not hesitate to call him terrorist.
If that would be the official stance of the USA... unsure.

[Insaanistan]

No.
Maybe by 1960s America.

There mere fact that many do in fact call him a warlord, pedophile, thief etc. etc. does imply that many individuals indeed would not hesitate to call him terrorist.
If that would be the official stance of the USA... unsure.

That was what I was referring to: the official stance of the US government rather than the US public opinion.

At this point, I might as well go into the entire life of Muhammad (S).

[Immortan Khan]

Last year the High Court in Pakistan upheld the forced marriage and forced conversion of a 13 year old Christian girl, who was abducted and forced to marry a 44 year old man. Every year about 1000 non-Muslim girls are abducted for the purpose of marriage and usually forced to convert in Pakistan. Since you're fond of the topic of degeneracy, need I bring up the grooming gangs which raped tens of thousands of girls and were overwhelmingly made up of Muslim Pakistanis? And if you don't think those close knit communities didn't know what was being done then lmfao to you boyo.

FWIW I'm not Russian, so I'm not sure why you try to make everything related to Orthodoxy about Russia. A lot of Orthodox Christians consider Russia's Orthodox character to have been shattered by the Bolsheviks and is far from being put back together. Though of course another difference is that in Russia those things are not socially acceptable and get punished by law enforcement far more often than the various abuses inflicted upon non-Muslims in Pakistan. And other Muslim countries come to think of it. Once again, for all the talk about how we're so bad to Islam, Muslims still fare better and receive more just treatment in our world than we non-Muslims do in your world. I understand this is a salty spot for you though, Chess. :^)

[Chess Reloaded]

7th Century Arabia was a violent, politically unstable region on the peripheries of more culturally and politically sophisticated civilisations.

The kind of behaviour that was appropriate in such an environment was, for very obvious reasons, vastly different from the kind of behaviour that is appropriate in our (mostly) peaceful globalised civilisation of the 21st Century, and if you try to behave in the latter as people used to in the former, you really should not be all that surprised if the world considers you to be a bunch of maladaptive misfits.

I mean, to put it this way, Charlemagne was a Christian paragon in his time but put him in the 21st Century and the modern French and German governments are likely to have some harsh words to say about the measures he took to Christianise Saxony. This argument that we are having in this thread has little to do with Christianity against Islam (except, perhaps, insofar as the different circumstances of their origins may have affected their natures) and everything to do with modern post-industrial civilization against medieval barbarism.

I consider Shari'ah more civilized than barbaric western legal codes which lack due process and permit pornography, which punish poor people owning guns with prison while letting murdering police roam free, which persecute the homeless while showing gentleness to wealthy thieves, which make abortion quick and easy but marriage and divorce complicated legal matters, which tax income from labor higher than usury.

[Chess Reloaded]

Last year the High Court in Pakistan upheld the forced marriage and forced conversion of a 13 year old Christian girl, who was abducted and forced to marry a 44 year old man. Every year about 1000 non-Muslim girls are abducted for the purpose of marriage and usually forced to convert in Pakistan. Since you're fond of the topic of degeneracy, need I bring up the grooming gangs which raped tens of thousands of girls and were overwhelmingly made up of Muslim Pakistanis? And if you don't think those close knit communities didn't know what was being done then lmfao to you boyo.

FWIW I'm not Russian, so I'm not sure why you try to make everything related to Orthodoxy about Russia. A lot of Orthodox Christians consider Russia's Orthodox character was shattered by the Bolsheviks and is far from being put back together. Though of course another difference is that in Russia those things are not socially acceptable and get punished by law enforcement far more often than the various abuses inflicted upon non-Muslims in Pakistan. And other Muslim countries come to think of it. Once again, for all the talk about how we're so bad to Islam, Muslims still fare better and receive more just treatment in our world than we non-Muslims do in your world. I understand this is a salty spot for you though, Chess. :^)

Muslims generally receive better treatment in the west than in Muslim countries, this largely because of the the borders, regimes and families elevated for corrupt motives throughout the Muslim world by the British and French. Ask for the Eastern Orthodox world, Russia and Greece treat Muslims like dirt

[Czervenika]

7th Century Arabia was a violent, politically unstable region on the peripheries of more culturally and politically sophisticated civilisations.

The kind of behaviour that was appropriate in such an environment was, for very obvious reasons, vastly different from the kind of behaviour that is appropriate in our (mostly) peaceful globalised civilisation of the 21st Century, and if you try to behave in the latter as people used to in the former, you really should not be all that surprised if the world considers you to be a bunch of maladaptive misfits.

I mean, to put it this way, Charlemagne was a Christian paragon in his time but put him in the 21st Century and the modern French and German governments are likely to have some harsh words to say about the measures he took to Christianise Saxony. This argument that we are having in this thread has little to do with Christianity against Islam (except, perhaps, insofar as the different circumstances of their origins may have affected their natures) and everything to do with modern post-industrial civilization against medieval barbarism.

I consider Shari'ah more civilized than barbaric western legal codes which lack due process and permit pornography, which punish poor people owning guns with prison while letting murdering police roam free, which persecute the homeless while showing gentleness to wealthy thieves, which make abortion quick and easy but marriage and divorce complicated legal matters, which tax income from labor higher than usury.

Idk, Sharia is pretty barbaric if you're a woman. Plenty of women are murdered by sharia after being raped.

[Immortan Khan]

Last year the High Court in Pakistan upheld the forced marriage and forced conversion of a 13 year old Christian girl, who was abducted and forced to marry a 44 year old man. Every year about 1000 non-Muslim girls are abducted for the purpose of marriage and usually forced to convert in Pakistan. Since you're fond of the topic of degeneracy, need I bring up the grooming gangs which raped tens of thousands of girls and were overwhelmingly made up of Muslim Pakistanis? And if you don't think those close knit communities didn't know what was being done then lmfao to you boyo.

FWIW I'm not Russian, so I'm not sure why you try to make everything related to Orthodoxy about Russia. A lot of Orthodox Christians consider Russia's Orthodox character was shattered by the Bolsheviks and is far from being put back together. Though of course another difference is that in Russia those things are not socially acceptable and get punished by law enforcement far more often than the various abuses inflicted upon non-Muslims in Pakistan. And other Muslim countries come to think of it. Once again, for all the talk about how we're so bad to Islam, Muslims still fare better and receive more just treatment in our world than we non-Muslims do in your world. I understand this is a salty spot for you though, Chess. :^)

Muslims generally receive better treatment in the west than in Muslim countries, this largely because of the the borders, regimes and families elevated for corrupt motives throughout the Muslim world by the British and French. Ask for the Eastern Orthodox world, Russia and Greece treat Muslims like dirt

I'm comparing minority status and treatment. Russia allows Chechnya a lot of free reign in implementing Islamic morals and laws not to mention that what discrimination there is still pales in comparison to the way non-Muslims get treated in the Islamic world. I mean, there is a reason why Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the world and it's not just because the CCP clamps down on illegal churches. As for Greece, is this the same one that is routinely condemned for how it has treated migrants and has a large and vocal movement to improve their situation? Your whataboutisms keep failing, Chess.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

I consider Shari'ah more civilized than barbaric western legal codes which lack due process and permit pornography, which punish poor people owning guns with prison while letting murdering police roam free, which persecute the homeless while showing gentleness to wealthy thieves, which make abortion quick and easy but marriage and divorce complicated legal matters, which tax income from labor higher than usury.

Of course, freedom of thought and conscience means that you are perfectly free to consider the western world to be as barbaric as the western world considers fundamentalist Islam to be, and since nobody is really willing to put up the soldiers necessary to kick the Taliban out of Kabul, the Taliban is free to isolate themselves from the western values that they despise so much and try to build their own institutions of civilisation following their own sociopolitical values and beliefs.

I mean, the revolutionary socialists of the Warsaw Pact tried to do exactly that seventy years ago, and look how well it worked out for them... oh, right. It didn’t.

What the Taliban is most certainly not free to do, however, is share in the benefits of global economic, cultural, and scientific institutions while totally rejecting the fundamental values on which these institutions rest. You want a seat at the game — you play by the rules, whether you agree with them or not.

[Czervenika]

I consider Shari'ah more civilized than barbaric western legal codes which lack due process and permit pornography, which punish poor people owning guns with prison while letting murdering police roam free, which persecute the homeless while showing gentleness to wealthy thieves, which make abortion quick and easy but marriage and divorce complicated legal matters, which tax income from labor higher than usury.

Of course, freedom of thought and conscience means that you are perfectly free to consider the western world to be as barbaric as the western world considers fundamentalist Islam to be, and since nobody is really willing to put up the soldiers necessary to kick the Taliban out of Kabul, the Taliban is free to isolate themselves from the western values that they despise so much and try to build their own institutions of civilisation following their own sociopolitical values and beliefs.

I mean, the revolutionary socialists of the Warsaw Pact tried to do exactly that seventh years ago, and look how well it worked out for them... oh, right. It didn’t.

What the Taliban is most certainly not free to do, however, is share in the benefits of global economic, cultural, and scientific institutions while totally rejecting the fundamental values on which these institutions rest. You want a seat at the game — you play by the rules, whether you agree with them or not.

I just feel bad for everyone forced to live under such barbarism against their will.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

I just feel bad for everyone forced to live under such barbarism against their will.

*shrugs*

And I’m sure Chess feels bad for us living under ‘western barbarism’. But since the fundamentalist Muslims don’t have the economic and military power to conquer my homeland, and I certainly do not want the blood of my countrymen spilled in some effort to conquer Afghanistan, there isn’t very much that any of us can do about any of this other than point fingers and make condemnations.

But if Chess thinks we’re somehow going to play nice with the people opposed to our fundamental values, he’s got quite another thing coming. As I said: you want a seat at the game, you play by the rules.

[Arvenia]

7th Century Arabia was a violent, politically unstable region on the peripheries of more culturally and politically sophisticated civilisations.

The kind of behaviour that was appropriate in such an environment was, for very obvious reasons, vastly different from the kind of behaviour that is appropriate in our (mostly) peaceful globalised civilisation of the 21st Century, and if you try to behave in the latter as people used to in the former, you really should not be all that surprised if the world considers you to be a bunch of maladaptive misfits.

I mean, to put it this way, Charlemagne was a Christian paragon in his time but put him in the 21st Century and the modern French and German governments are likely to have some harsh words to say about the measures he took to Christianise Saxony. This argument that we are having in this thread has little to do with Christianity against Islam (except, perhaps, insofar as the different circumstances of their origins may have affected their natures) and everything to do with modern post-industrial civilization against medieval barbarism.

I consider Shari'ah more civilized than barbaric western legal codes which lack due process and permit pornography, which punish poor people owning guns with prison while letting murdering police roam free, which persecute the homeless while showing gentleness to wealthy thieves, which make abortion quick and easy but marriage and divorce complicated legal matters, which tax income from labor higher than usury.

Are you against abortion? Shouldn't women have the right to freely make the choice to have an abortion without being discriminated against?

[Insaanistan]

Last year the High Court in Pakistan upheld the forced marriage and forced conversion of a 13 year old Christian girl, who was abducted and forced to marry a 44 year old man. Every year about 1000 non-Muslim girls are abducted for the purpose of marriage and usually forced to convert in Pakistan. Since you're fond of the topic of degeneracy, need I bring up the grooming gangs which raped tens of thousands of girls and were overwhelmingly made up of Muslim Pakistanis? And if you don't think those close knit communities didn't know what was being done then lmfao to you boyo.

FWIW I'm not Russian, so I'm not sure why you try to make everything related to Orthodoxy about Russia. A lot of Orthodox Christians consider Russia's Orthodox character to have been shattered by the Bolsheviks and is far from being put back together. Though of course another difference is that in Russia those things are not socially acceptable and get punished by law enforcement far more often than the various abuses inflicted upon non-Muslims in Pakistan. And other Muslim countries come to think of it. Once again, for all the talk about how we're so bad to Islam, Muslims still fare better and receive more just treatment in our world than we non-Muslims do in your world. I understand this is a salty spot for you though, Chess. :^)

I hate to be a whataboutist, but… India.

It’s not the fault of Islam, nor the fault of Hinduism, nor the fault of brown people.
Nor is the porn industry in Russia the fault of Christianity or white people.

[Insaanistan]

7th Century Arabia was a violent, politically unstable region on the peripheries of more culturally and politically sophisticated civilisations.

The kind of behaviour that was appropriate in such an environment was, for very obvious reasons, vastly different from the kind of behaviour that is appropriate in our (mostly) peaceful globalised civilisation of the 21st Century, and if you try to behave in the latter as people used to in the former, you really should not be all that surprised if the world considers you to be a bunch of maladaptive misfits.

I mean, to put it this way, Charlemagne was a Christian paragon in his time but put him in the 21st Century and the modern French and German governments are likely to have some harsh words to say about the measures he took to Christianise Saxony. This argument that we are having in this thread has little to do with Christianity against Islam (except, perhaps, insofar as the different circumstances of their origins may have affected their natures) and everything to do with modern post-industrial civilization against medieval barbarism.

I consider Shari'ah more civilized than barbaric western legal codes which lack due process and permit pornography, which punish poor people owning guns with prison while letting murdering police roam free, which persecute the homeless while showing gentleness to wealthy thieves, which make abortion quick and easy but marriage and divorce complicated legal matters, which tax income from labor higher than usury.

Which Shariā? You act as if there’s just one book of shariā law all Muslims agree on the interpretation, extent and implementations of.

[Diarcesia]

Last year the High Court in Pakistan upheld the forced marriage and forced conversion of a 13 year old Christian girl, who was abducted and forced to marry a 44 year old man. Every year about 1000 non-Muslim girls are abducted for the purpose of marriage and usually forced to convert in Pakistan. Since you're fond of the topic of degeneracy, need I bring up the grooming gangs which raped tens of thousands of girls and were overwhelmingly made up of Muslim Pakistanis? And if you don't think those close knit communities didn't know what was being done then lmfao to you boyo.

FWIW I'm not Russian, so I'm not sure why you try to make everything related to Orthodoxy about Russia. A lot of Orthodox Christians consider Russia's Orthodox character to have been shattered by the Bolsheviks and is far from being put back together. Though of course another difference is that in Russia those things are not socially acceptable and get punished by law enforcement far more often than the various abuses inflicted upon non-Muslims in Pakistan. And other Muslim countries come to think of it. Once again, for all the talk about how we're so bad to Islam, Muslims still fare better and receive more just treatment in our world than we non-Muslims do in your world. I understand this is a salty spot for you though, Chess. :^)

I hate to be a whataboutist, but… India.

It’s not the fault of Islam, nor the fault of Hinduism, nor the fault of brown people.
Nor is the porn industry in Russia the fault of Christianity or white people.

Tbf Immortan's focus is on Eastern Christians in the Middle East, much of it is Muslim-ruled, so it's no wonder he holds the opinions he does on Muslims.

Edit: Not to mention the lack of reciprocity of the Islam-majority countries there in their treatment of religious majorities. However, the tolerance of Muslims in the Western world imo have more to do with secularism than Christianity. Yes, secularism is a product of enlightenment ideals and Christian philosophy. However, does anyone seriously think that a devoutly-Christian government would be that kind to their religious minorities? Based on the historical treatment of the Jews, I lean towards a no.

[Chess Reloaded]

I consider Shari'ah more civilized than barbaric western legal codes which lack due process and permit pornography, which punish poor people owning guns with prison while letting murdering police roam free, which persecute the homeless while showing gentleness to wealthy thieves, which make abortion quick and easy but marriage and divorce complicated legal matters, which tax income from labor higher than usury.

Which Shariā? You act as if there’s just one book of shariā law all Muslims agree on the interpretation, extent and implementations of.

Shari'ah is one, fiqh, understanding of it, is what has variety.

Every single legal system in the world has many interpretations. If we want an overview of the array of more or less accepted interpretations of Shari'ah, we can look at The Distinguished Jurist's Primer. Astounding as this seems, there is much less latitude there than the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution which covers much less law, to say nothing at all of the countless judicial interpretations of the American law in total. But if someone boasts of the U.S. Constitution we don't tell him off because it's subject to interpretation. The issues I drew attention to fixed by Shari'ah regarding of the school or interpretation you're going by if it genuinely uses a methodology for rulings that has been long established

[Czervenika]

I hate to be a whataboutist, but… India.

It’s not the fault of Islam, nor the fault of Hinduism, nor the fault of brown people.
Nor is the porn industry in Russia the fault of Christianity or white people.

Tbf Immortan's focus is on Eastern Christians in the Middle East, much of it is Muslim-ruled, so it's no wonder he holds the opinions he does on Muslims.

Edit: Not to mention the lack of reciprocity of the Islam-majority countries there in their treatment of religious majorities. However, the tolerance of Muslims in the Western world imo have more to do with secularism than Christianity. Yes, secularism is a product of enlightenment ideals and Christian philosophy. However, does anyone seriously think that a devoutly-Christian government would be that kind to their religious minorities? Based on the historical treatment of the Jews, I lean towards a no.

Imo, a Christian theocracy would be about as bad as an Islamic theocracy. Both wants to impose repressive control on women. They expect us to remain in the home and reproduce. Some women are okay with that, but I am not. I don't even want children and getting pregnant would literally traumatize me. (Yes, I have a phobia before anyone asks.)