Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Diahon]

i've met enough muslims in my life to know that its adherents can be better than these

50$ says you consider gay "muslims" to be the shining example of Islam

decent people are who i hold dear, and it is for their sake and to their defense that i speak at all

you, as you are now, are not decent, no matter what you think of your words and your deeds

[Ansarullah]

50$ says you consider gay "muslims" to be the shining example of Islam

decent people are who i hold dear, and it is for their sake and to their defense that i speak at all

you, as you are now, are not decent, no matter what you think of your words and your deeds

1: You don't know me in real life, you know me over 5 messages I've sent to you on an internet message board; you're the one who went off on me, not the other way around
2: I can't tell if that's a yes

[Diahon]

while i for one would rather be thought of as a shitposter than a bigot if i had the mother wit to cover myself up, that's not really an improvement, is it?

[Ansarullah]

?

[Chess Reloaded]

This is exactly the reason why I hate going in there. Is it always have to be "Bible vs Qur'an" or whatever everytime someone speaks (or converses) there? In a way, Lady Victory is right. It's clear that there are different values or whatever. Calm it down already.

There will always be different values between kufr and Islam, that absolutely doesn't change the following reviling of the religion. We don't suck up to the enemies of Allah

And telling others to calm it down while defending someone who denigrated the Deen is really cringe

[The Alma Mater]

This is exactly the reason why I hate going in there. Is it always have to be "Bible vs Qur'an" or whatever everytime someone speaks (or converses) there? In a way, Lady Victory is right. It's clear that there are different values or whatever. Calm it down already.

There will always be different values between kufr and Islam, that absolutely doesn't change the following reviling of the religion. We don't suck up to the enemies of Allah

And telling others to calm it down while defending someone who denigrated the Deen is really cringe

I thought the Quran explicitly stated you are not allowed to call christians "enemies of Allah" ?

[Samudera Darussalam]

This is exactly the reason why I hate going in there. Is it always have to be "Bible vs Qur'an" or whatever everytime someone speaks (or converses) there? In a way, Lady Victory is right. It's clear that there are different values or whatever. Calm it down already.

There will always be different values between kufr and Islam, that absolutely doesn't change the following reviling of the religion. We don't suck up to the enemies of Allah

And telling others to calm it down while defending someone who denigrated the Deen is really cringe

For your record, I'm not defending her. I'm just saying that she is right in that there are differences in the values that she and you uphold. Being committed to protect the deen or become a pious Muslim or whatever is fine, but looking at the history of the posts in some threads, I fully understand why she said that.

Also I'm going to ignore the last part if it does its job of preventing some quarrel from happening there.

[Chess Reloaded]

There will always be different values between kufr and Islam, that absolutely doesn't change the following reviling of the religion. We don't suck up to the enemies of Allah

And telling others to calm it down while defending someone who denigrated the Deen is really cringe

I thought the Quran explicitly stated you are not allowed to call christians "enemies of Allah" ?

It doesn't say that, obviously so-called Christians can be the enemies of Allah. So can self-styled Muslims.

There will always be different values between kufr and Islam, that absolutely doesn't change the following reviling of the religion. We don't suck up to the enemies of Allah

And telling others to calm it down while defending someone who denigrated the Deen is really cringe

For your record, I'm not defending her. I'm just saying that she is right in that there are differences in the values that she and you uphold. Being committed to protect the deen or become a pious Muslim or whatever is fine, but looking at the history of the posts in some threads, I fully understand why she said that.

Also I'm going to ignore the last part if it does its job of preventing some quarrel from happening there.

In most cases it's pobably best not to say anything if someone reviles Islam or the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. But if you have to respond, response in opposition.

[Lady Victory]

Give it a rest, dude. Westerners need to learn that there is no changing Islam; it will always be the misbegotten creation it always was. Just take solace in the fact that we don't use their putrid excuse for a moral compass and justice system over here.

And the Bible is any nicer towards homosexuals or transgenders?

Is this the CDT?

Give it a rest, dude. Westerners need to learn that there is no changing Islam; it will always be the misbegotten creation it always was. Just take solace in the fact that we don't use their putrid excuse for a moral compass and justice system over here.

i've met enough muslims in my life to know that its adherents can be better than these

It's not a problem of adherents, it's a problem of doctrine.

Liberal Muslims are wasting their time trying to reform a religion that can't be reformed. Islam was made by and for conquering warlords. It's theology thus reflects the brutality, repression, and authoritarianism one might expect from Medieval tyrants. There is no changing it; it's ingrained too deeply in Islamic thought and law. Islam has always been a religion of war, slavery, and oppression and it always will be. Eventually the radicals will drive everyone else away from the faith until it dwindles into obscurity, something I welcome.

Is it always have to be "Bible vs Qur'an" or whatever everytime someone speaks

I don't care what the Bible says, I just care about people being logically consistent.
Calling yourself Christian then criticizing Islam for being anti-LGBT is not.

No, you want to score 'gotcha' points through whataboutism.

50$ says you consider gay "muslims" to be the shining example of Islam

decent people are who i hold dear, and it is for their sake and to their defense that i speak at all

you, as you are now, are not decent, no matter what you think of your words and your deeds

Islam doesn't make decent people, though. Decent Muslims are decent in spite of Islam; not because of it. This is what you're not getting.

[Lady Victory]

There will always be different values between kufr and Islam, that absolutely doesn't change the following reviling of the religion. We don't suck up to the enemies of Allah

And telling others to calm it down while defending someone who denigrated the Deen is really cringe

I thought the Quran explicitly stated you are not allowed to call christians "enemies of Allah" ?

From my point of view being an 'Enemy of Islam' is being true to God so I'll wear the fact I reject the word of false prophets as a badge of honor.

[Immortan Khan]

Liberal Muslims are wasting their time trying to reform a religion that can't be reformed. Islam was made by and for conquering warlords. It's theology thus reflects the brutality, repression, and authoritarianism one might expect from Medieval tyrants. There is no changing it; it's ingrained too deeply in Islamic thought and law. Islam has always been a religion of war, slavery, and oppression and it always will be. Eventually the radicals will drive everyone else away from the faith until it dwindles into obscurity, something I welcome.

Dwindle in the West, perhaps. Not elsewhere where Islam is socially ingrained eg Pakistan. In Pakistan it's socially acceptable to kidnap non-Muslim girls and force them to marry and convert. It's even protected by their courts. There is no hope of dwindling in such a barbaric place.

[Chess Reloaded]

Liberal Muslims are wasting their time trying to reform a religion that can't be reformed. Islam was made by and for conquering warlords. It's theology thus reflects the brutality, repression, and authoritarianism one might expect from Medieval tyrants. There is no changing it; it's ingrained too deeply in Islamic thought and law. Islam has always been a religion of war, slavery, and oppression and it always will be. Eventually the radicals will drive everyone else away from the faith until it dwindles into obscurity, something I welcome.

Dwindle in the West, perhaps. Not elsewhere where Islam is socially ingrained eg Pakistan. In Pakistan it's socially acceptable to kidnap non-Muslim girls and force them to marry and convert. It's even protected by their courts. There is no hope of dwindling in such a barbaric place.

Kind of like saying in Orthodox countries it's socially acceptable to kidnap kids and force them into pornography. Isn't Russia the number one producer of child porn?

[Czervenika]

Dwindle in the West, perhaps. Not elsewhere where Islam is socially ingrained eg Pakistan. In Pakistan it's socially acceptable to kidnap non-Muslim girls and force them to marry and convert. It's even protected by their courts. There is no hope of dwindling in such a barbaric place.

Kind of like saying in Orthodox countries it's socially acceptable to kidnap kids and force them into pornography. Isn't Russia the number one producer of child porn?

Do Muslims have any actual arguments besides "whataboutisms"?

[Tarsonis]

Kind of like saying in Orthodox countries it's socially acceptable to kidnap kids and force them into pornography. Isn't Russia the number one producer of child porn?

Do Muslims have any actual arguments besides "whataboutisms"?

it's also not even and accurate, comparison. Russia has a problem yes, but it's not protected by law. Rather Russia lacks the resources to enforce. Unlike what IK where this type of practice is protected by law. The situation in Russia has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with who gained power following the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Chess Reloaded]

Do Muslims have any actual arguments besides "whataboutisms"?

it's also not even and accurate, comparison. Russia has a problem yes, but it's not protected by law. Rather Russia lacks the resources to enforce. Unlike what IK where this type of practice is protected by law.

What law?

[Czervenika]

Do Muslims have any actual arguments besides "whataboutisms"?

it's also not even and accurate, comparison. Russia has a problem yes, but it's not protected by law. Rather Russia lacks the resources to enforce. Unlike what IK where this type of practice is protected by law. The situation in Russia has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with who gained power following the fall of the Soviet Union.

Russia has plenty of issues in a variety of different areas and some of them could be attributed to religious conservatism. That's sort of getting off topic for this thread, though.

[Chess Reloaded]

Kind of like saying in Orthodox countries it's socially acceptable to kidnap kids and force them into pornography. Isn't Russia the number one producer of child porn?

Do Muslims have any actual arguments besides "whataboutisms"?

That's not a whataboutism, that's saying his statement is inaccurate. There are even Hindus living in Pakistan and that's illegal to do to them, and there is a lot more animosity toward Hindus. Some Christians have a profound problem with self insert, reminds me of the evangelical tweets about the Taliban killing Christians in Afghanistan even though the only church in the whole country was at the Italian embassy

[Insaanistan]

Liberal Muslims are wasting their time trying to reform a religion that can't be reformed. Islam was made by and for conquering warlords. It's theology thus reflects the brutality, repression, and authoritarianism one might expect from Medieval tyrants. There is no changing it; it's ingrained too deeply in Islamic thought and law. Islam has always been a religion of war, slavery, and oppression and it always will be. Eventually the radicals will drive everyone else away from the faith until it dwindles into obscurity, something I welcome.

Dwindle in the West, perhaps. Not elsewhere where Islam is socially ingrained eg Pakistan. In Pakistan it's socially acceptable to kidnap non-Muslim girls and force them to marry and convert. It's even protected by their courts. There is no hope of dwindling in such a barbaric place.

Socially acceptable is a bit of a stretch. It is (horrifyingly) usually permitted legally. Nonetheless, Pakistan is a big and diverse place. Forcing non-Muslim girls to get married is about as "socially acceptable" as beating up Shias.

[Chess Reloaded]

Dwindle in the West, perhaps. Not elsewhere where Islam is socially ingrained eg Pakistan. In Pakistan it's socially acceptable to kidnap non-Muslim girls and force them to marry and convert. It's even protected by their courts. There is no hope of dwindling in such a barbaric place.

Socially acceptable is a bit of a stretch. It is (horrifyingly) usually permitted legally. Nonetheless, Pakistan is a big and diverse place. Forcing non-Muslim girls to get married is about as "socially acceptable" as beating up Shias.

Kidnapping isn't legally permitted in Pakistan, what are you on about

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

I agree in principle that is not unreasonable to point out that the people supposedly advocating for a principle are not themselves interested in following it. Christian Russia, Muslim Pakistan... what’s the big difference anyways?

That being said, though, even though both Christianity and Islam are both widespread global religions with some enlightened adherents and some less enlightened ones, the social, economic, cultural, and intellectual core of modern Christendom is the North Atlantic in the same way that the core of today’s Dar-al-Islam is the Middle East and it would take some brazenly willful blindness to pretend that, say, the British Conservative Party is on the same level as the Taliban when it comes to the freedom and human dignity that these two political organisations provide to the human beings under their respective governance.

Russian authoritarianism and romantic Christian reaction is pretty peripheral to modern Christendom in a way that comparable Islamic radicals simply are not to modern Dar-al-Islam.

Heck, I consider myself a pretty fervent anti-American and even I would blanch at that level of willful blindness.

[Insaanistan]

There will always be different values between kufr and Islam, that absolutely doesn't change the following reviling of the religion. We don't suck up to the enemies of Allah

And telling others to calm it down while defending someone who denigrated the Deen is really cringe

I thought the Quran explicitly stated you are not allowed to call christians "enemies of Allah" ?

You assume people who defend terrorists care what the Qur'an actually states.

The fact people continuously make this mistake explains why many people hold the view of Lady Victory.

[Chess Reloaded]

I thought the Quran explicitly stated you are not allowed to call christians "enemies of Allah" ?

You assume people who defend terrorists care what the Qur'an actually states.

The fact people continuously make this mistake explains why many people hold the view of Lady Victory.

The Prophet ﷺ would literally be labeled a terrorist by America today

[Chess Reloaded]

It is not unreasonable to point out that the people supposedly advocating for a principle are not themselves interested in following it. Christian Russia, Muslim Pakistan... what’s the big difference anyways?

That being said, though, even though both Christianity and Islam are both widespread global religions with some enlightened adherents and some less enlightened ones, the social, economic, cultural, and intellectual core of modern Christendom is the North Atlantic in the same way that the core of today’s Dar-al-Islam is the Middle East and it would take some brazenly willful blindness to pretend that, say, the British Conservative Party is on the same level as the Taliban when it comes to the freedom and human dignity that these two political organisations provide to the human beings under their respective governance.

Russian authoritarianism and romantic Christian reaction is pretty peripheral to modern Christendom in a way that comparable Islamic radicals simply are not to modern Dar-al-Islam.

Heck, I consider myself a pretty fervent anti-American and even I would blanch at that level of willful blindness.

Aren't Tories pro abortion? I would like say that's a lot worse than most Islamists

[Czervenika]

Do Muslims have any actual arguments besides "whataboutisms"?

That's not a whataboutism, that's saying his statement is inaccurate. There are even Hindus living in Pakistan and that's illegal to do to them, and there is a lot more animosity toward Hindus. Some Christians have a profound problem with self insert, reminds me of the evangelical tweets about the Taliban killing Christians in Afghanistan even though the only church in the whole country was at the Italian embassy

Self-insert? Why do Muslims tend to assume all westerners they're arguing with are Christians? I'm neither Christian nor Muslim. If anything, I'm agnostic.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Self-insert? Why do Muslims tend to assume all westerners they're arguing with are Christians? I'm neither Christian nor Muslim. If anything, I'm agnostic.

And I’m not only an ardent anti-clerical atheist, I’m also not a ‘westerner’ as is conventionally defined. :p

When the Islamic radicals here try to point out that Christian fundamentalists do the same thing they do, my instinctive response boils down to ‘yeah and I dislike that too, and for the same reasons; what’s your point?’